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[PASSED] Commend Altmoras

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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Fri May 21, 2021 5:48 am

Northern Connecticut wrote:This is personally offensive to me. The Devil and hell represent literal evil in my eyes. I can't believe the WA would commend that region or that nation. Hard no. No now and forever. Never shall I vote for anything like this. NO. NO. NO. I cannot believe people think Satanism is cool or whatever. First the satan shoes and now this. Society has gone crazy. Long live the Catholic Church.

Ummm.... huh? Okay, let me put it this way, so that you might understand what's going on here. Someone has to play Judas Iscariot in Jesus Christ Superstar on Broadway, right? And, if someone like, say, Ben Vereen does it, and does a marvelous job and is nominated for a Tony award, don't you think he deserves a Tony award nomination? Or would you be personally offended, and think society has gone crazy if he were nominated or, God forbid, won, because his character betrayed Jesus Christ? I mean, if you honestly think Larry Blyden in A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum was more deserving, that's fine, but you can't discount Ben Vereen's performance just because he played the bad guy in your eyes and the eyes of the Catholic Church, or call him a Satanist for doing so.

That's pretty much what we're doing here. We're awarding someone for a marvelous performance as the bad guy. Am I making any sense here?
Last edited by Wrapper on Fri May 21, 2021 5:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 6:00 am

Northern Connecticut wrote:This is personally offensive to me. The Devil and hell represent literal evil in my eyes. I can't believe the WA would commend that region or that nation. Hard no. No now and forever. Never shall I vote for anything like this. NO. NO. NO. I cannot believe people think Satanism is cool or whatever. First the satan shoes and now this. Society has gone crazy. Long live the Catholic Church.


I was going to make a really snarky and snide reply to this...but It's much funnier that you're letting "Satan" control how you vote. I'll pray at black mass for you.

That being said whether Altmoras is deserving or not I just don't see this commend conveying that. 1) I'm tired of "They're a Defender" being genuinely the only reason we give out commends, like congrats we have like 20 defender orgs, you fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making defenderism the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer commendable, you made yourself not special. Tell me how they innovated, how they recruited for Libcord or something, just saying they did some raids and got promoted is really lazy writing when it comes to commends, and we should ask for better. Explain not how they're a defender but how they changed "defending". Sure 3000 is a lot but when you're doing the amount of De-Tag TGW talks about every weekend it seems less impressive. 2) I see no mention of Anti-Fascist work and that's way more important to me when it comes to commends than the rest of R/D that means they did something to actually improve the whole community. I'm sure they've done some, but it's missing. 3) Being a part of Hell isn't all the commendable, I mean is a region being tough to get into prize worthy? Cause if so I'll make one and password it and expect my praise. I'm not saying Hell isn't a great region I just don't see exclusivity as being a defining factor in what would make a region lovely. 4) I really can't give a hoot about N-Day, there many regions that have won and got second for N-Day and Z-Day now, doesn't make you a stand out candidate. 5) Repealing a Liberate for a defensive liberation isn't outstanding it's expected.

So really all we have left is being a WAD twice, which if that's the bar we should have a line forming a few miles back.

I'm not saying they're not commend worthy, but if they are they deserve a more worthy commendation.
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Fauxia
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Postby Fauxia » Fri May 21, 2021 8:16 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Northern Connecticut wrote:This is personally offensive to me. The Devil and hell represent literal evil in my eyes. I can't believe the WA would commend that region or that nation. Hard no. No now and forever. Never shall I vote for anything like this. NO. NO. NO. I cannot believe people think Satanism is cool or whatever. First the satan shoes and now this. Society has gone crazy. Long live the Catholic Church.


I was going to make a really snarky and snide reply to this...but It's much funnier that you're letting "Satan" control how you vote. I'll pray at black mass for you.

That being said whether Altmoras is deserving or not I just don't see this commend conveying that. 1) I'm tired of "They're a Defender" being genuinely the only reason we give out commends, like congrats we have like 20 defender orgs, you fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making defenderism the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer commendable, you made yourself not special. Tell me how they innovated, how they recruited for Libcord or something, just saying they did some raids and got promoted is really lazy writing when it comes to commends, and we should ask for better. Explain not how they're a defender but how they changed "defending". Sure 3000 is a lot but when you're doing the amount of De-Tag TGW talks about every weekend it seems less impressive. 2) I see no mention of Anti-Fascist work and that's way more important to me when it comes to commends than the rest of R/D that means they did something to actually improve the whole community. I'm sure they've done some, but it's missing. 3) Being a part of Hell isn't all the commendable, I mean is a region being tough to get into prize worthy? Cause if so I'll make one and password it and expect my praise. I'm not saying Hell isn't a great region I just don't see exclusivity as being a defining factor in what would make a region lovely. 4) I really can't give a hoot about N-Day, there many regions that have won and got second for N-Day and Z-Day now, doesn't make you a stand out candidate. 5) Repealing a Liberate for a defensive liberation isn't outstanding it's expected.

So really all we have left is being a WAD twice, which if that's the bar we should have a line forming a few miles back.

I'm not saying they're not commend worthy, but if they are they deserve a more worthy commendation.

This is really brilliant logic. If you throw out all the commendable stuff in the commendation, suddenly Altmoras doesn't seem commendable anymore!
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 8:48 am

Fauxia wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:
I was going to make a really snarky and snide reply to this...but It's much funnier that you're letting "Satan" control how you vote. I'll pray at black mass for you.

That being said whether Altmoras is deserving or not I just don't see this commend conveying that. 1) I'm tired of "They're a Defender" being genuinely the only reason we give out commends, like congrats we have like 20 defender orgs, you fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making defenderism the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer commendable, you made yourself not special. Tell me how they innovated, how they recruited for Libcord or something, just saying they did some raids and got promoted is really lazy writing when it comes to commends, and we should ask for better. Explain not how they're a defender but how they changed "defending". Sure 3000 is a lot but when you're doing the amount of De-Tag TGW talks about every weekend it seems less impressive. 2) I see no mention of Anti-Fascist work and that's way more important to me when it comes to commends than the rest of R/D that means they did something to actually improve the whole community. I'm sure they've done some, but it's missing. 3) Being a part of Hell isn't all the commendable, I mean is a region being tough to get into prize worthy? Cause if so I'll make one and password it and expect my praise. I'm not saying Hell isn't a great region I just don't see exclusivity as being a defining factor in what would make a region lovely. 4) I really can't give a hoot about N-Day, there many regions that have won and got second for N-Day and Z-Day now, doesn't make you a stand out candidate. 5) Repealing a Liberate for a defensive liberation isn't outstanding it's expected.

So really all we have left is being a WAD twice, which if that's the bar we should have a line forming a few miles back.

I'm not saying they're not commend worthy, but if they are they deserve a more worthy commendation.

This is really brilliant logic. If you throw out all the commendable stuff in the commendation, suddenly Altmoras doesn't seem commendable anymore!


Can I ask you what made my statement so hard to read for you? Because I very specifically said I don't know if the are commendable I didn't make that call. I'm saying this doesn't display what makes Altmora special considering everyone and their mother has been commended for the exact sam ethings. It's no longer a stand out thing. You understand that, right? It's not special anymore. Dead-Eye, Roavin, BT, XKI, Markanite, Honeydew, Kuriko, Gray Harbor, Duxburian, Woonsocket, Paffnia, Xoriet, Frattastan, Guy ect. All of them for the same Defender stuff, while Altmoras own organization constantly spits the rhetoric about how "Easy" Defenderism is now, So if everyone is doing it and it's easy now is it really special? As for WAD well over half the people on that list had also been a WAD at some point, also being a WAD is equally condemnable, so is it special?

Tell me what they innovated!

I want to know what the hell differentiate Altmoras from all of those, what makes what they did not a immitation of them and what makes Altmoras's Acheivements in RD special compared to well the other dozens of folxs. Sorry if I'm the only one tired of rubber stamping commends. Tell me they're the accurate trigger in TGW , Telling me they planned all 3000 of those does in detail. How they tireless watched the activity feed for nights on end. Tell me they did a bunch of raids and calling it a day isn't cutting it anymore.

These things have been commended to hell by you folxs, to the point they're no longer commendable unless you explain why this person stands out. A Clover flower can be beautiful by itself, but stick a shit ton in a garden and it's just another weed. Show me the stand alone stuff.

EDIT: I also want to say that saying "Well why are you arguing it on this one then and not the last one" which is super valid, but the response is why not this one? Saying "I agree, but on the next time" we do it is super valid.

I'm just tired of saying that the calling the samething special when everyone is doing it is tiring, go way in depth or don't do it, and if it's is commendable despite that maybe don't have your org consistently down play how easy it is.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Fri May 21, 2021 9:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Alfonzo
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Postby Alfonzo » Fri May 21, 2021 9:47 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:-snip-

If we apply that logic to other SC badges your argument falls easily.

"I'm tired of "They're a Raider" being genuinely the only reason we give out condemns, like congrats we have like 20 raider orgs, your fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making raiderdom the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer condemnable, you made yourself not special."

Switch a few words, add/subtract same phrases and that same argument can be made for every SC proposal from here on out.
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 10:09 am

Alfonzo wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:-snip-

If we apply that logic to other SC badges your argument falls easily.

"I'm tired of "They're a Raider" being genuinely the only reason we give out condemns, like congrats we have like 20 raider orgs, your fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making raiderdom the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer condemnable, you made yourself not special."

Switch a few words, add/subtract same phrases and that same argument can be made for every SC proposal from here on out.


And it's just as true for Raiders. If they're not actually innovating they don't deserve a condemn. As for every SC proposal no that's you be unoriginally hyperbolic. Innovations happens in GP, in Cards, in RP (although I do my own reservations about RP commends). The URA and WALL are all fairly new. New Treaties that occur after years of interregional damage have their own unique differences. 3000 raids by any TGW is exactly the same. 3000 raids by any Raider is exactly the same, and also no one has an entire thread that for the last year has said "GP" is easy. No on has had an entire thread the last year bragging about how being the number one "Card Farmer" has literally no competition. You see their is a difference, And again I'm not saying Altmoras doesn't deserve one, but saying they did a 50 man here, should we think about all 50 of those folks for commends, or did Altmors do something stand out from them that wasn't explained? Is "Create and manage channels of communication for Lazarenes" simply making a discord? Or was it creating multiple channels, pushing for activity on it, developing a forum from scratch? but and I get the reason you're being Hyperbolic, you know what Altmoras has actually done and accomplished, so tell me because I don't know who the fuck they are other than they've done the exact same things as all those names I listed earlier, because at some point that's become not enough for me, because it's becomes the normal expectation for defenders, due to thier own success.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Fri May 21, 2021 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Refuge Isle » Fri May 21, 2021 10:16 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:Dead-Eye, Roavin, BT, XKI, Markanite, Honeydew, Kuriko, Gray Harbor, Duxburian, Woonsocket, Paffnia, Xoriet, Frattastan, Guy ect. All of them for the same Defender stuff

I have no intention of defending Fauxia now or ever, but this line of criticism is really indecent. The idea behind a C&C is not that you must be more extravagant, have more clout, have more contributions over time against a higher and higher bar. That's not how this works, that's not what these are for, and historically that's not how these have been used. For players in r/d which have contributed massively to the success and continuity of their faction, security council resolutions are an appropriate way to recognise and award that contribution. You do not need to top the previous person who received a C&C, you must simply have contributed enough to satisfy the voting base.

I'm highly concerned by the implication of your criticism that C&Cs should be awarded less and be an even more exclusive club, it's bad for writers, but most especially it's bad for the tens of thousands of players who have come and gone over the years, when only a small handful have and will ever be recognised by the Security Council. The superhero you desire to satisfy your wants is an unreasonable bar for a browser-based political sim when there are so many who contribute substantially to this site. The vote reflects this.

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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri May 21, 2021 10:46 am

Nova Vandalia wrote:
Alfonzo wrote:If we apply that logic to other SC badges your argument falls easily.

"I'm tired of "They're a Raider" being genuinely the only reason we give out condemns, like congrats we have like 20 raider orgs, your fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making raiderdom the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer condemnable, you made yourself not special."

Switch a few words, add/subtract same phrases and that same argument can be made for every SC proposal from here on out.


And it's just as true for Raiders. If they're not actually innovating they don't deserve a condemn. As for every SC proposal no that's you be unoriginally hyperbolic. Innovations happens in GP, in Cards, in RP (although I do my own reservations about RP commends). The URA and WALL are all fairly new. New Treaties that occur after years of interregional damage have their own unique differences. 3000 raids by any TGW is exactly the same. 3000 raids by any Raider is exactly the same, and also no one has an entire thread that for the last year has said "GP" is easy. No on has had an entire thread the last year bragging about how being the number one "Card Farmer" has literally no competition. You see their is a difference, And again I'm not saying Altmoras doesn't deserve one, but saying they did a 50 man here, should we think about all 50 of those folks for commends, or did Altmors do something stand out from them that wasn't explained? Is "Create and manage channels of communication for Lazarenes" simply making a discord? Or was it creating multiple channels, pushing for activity on it, developing a forum from scratch? but and I get the reason you're being Hyperbolic, you know what Altmoras has actually done and accomplished, so tell me because I don't know who the fuck they are other than they've done the exact same things as all those names I listed earlier, because at some point that's become not enough for me, because it's becomes the normal expectation for defenders, due to thier own success.

What in your mind counts for someone to be commendable? That they do everything they possibly can and be more commendable than past nominees? That's not how it works.
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 10:53 am

Refuge Isle wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:Dead-Eye, Roavin, BT, XKI, Markanite, Honeydew, Kuriko, Gray Harbor, Duxburian, Woonsocket, Paffnia, Xoriet, Frattastan, Guy ect. All of them for the same Defender stuff

I have no intention of defending Fauxia now or ever, but this line of criticism is really indecent. The idea behind a C&C is not that you must be more extravagant, have more clout, have more contributions over time against a higher and higher bar. That's not how this works, that's not what these are for, and historically that's not how these have been used. For players in r/d which have contributed massively to the success and continuity of their faction, security council resolutions are an appropriate way to recognise and award that contribution. You do not need to top the previous person who received a C&C, you must simply have contributed enough to satisfy the voting base.

I'm highly concerned by the implication of your criticism that C&Cs should be awarded less and be an even more exclusive club, it's bad for writers, but most especially it's bad for the tens of thousands of players who have come and gone over the years, when only a small handful have and will ever be recognised by the Security Council. The superhero you desire to satisfy your wants is an unreasonable bar for a browser-based political sim when there are so many who contribute substantially to this site. The vote reflects this.




"For players in r/d which have contributed massively to the success and continuity of their faction, security council resolutions are an appropriate way to recognize and award that contribution"

Valid Opinion, one I happen to agree with, but massively being the operative word there means you have to compare it to the average contributions, and I'm saying that's not on display in this. They have the same contributions as the other 39 and 49 people who went on those big pile ones. They have the same contributions to anyone who has participated in a large number of raids. I've said time and time again I'm not saying this individual isn't worthy I've said the way it is written doesn't tell me that. That's what I know of TGW the way it reads is commonplace, not massive. I'm not saying they have to top others I am saying they have to be relatively unique, otherwise everyone deserves a commend. You on the other hands see no issue with turning C&C into a participation trophy not based around contribution but longevity when it comes to R&D. And let not that you massively, but again the rhetoric of TGW, is that defending lately isn't really a big deal. Their current one is that they literally killed raiding and don't have competition. They don't have anything to contribute since there is no competitor. So again which is it? Is TGW's rhetoric wrong? Tell me why this stuff disagrees with that? Tell me why it wasn't easy?

Now you see if I want to win this argument I would try and twist your words here " tens of thousands of players" because we know that you don't think tens and thousands of player are worthy of Commends right? But I also not asking for increased exclusivity. I'm saying I'm tired of hearing "Did this defense of this region at this time" "Did this defense of this region at this time" "Repeald this liberate because well someone had too so why not them" I want personality and to know what they did? Did they just show up with a red bull on saturday night? OR did they take lead, do research, rally the troops? Where they WAD at the time (in the latter half Python does this and did it well, when Altmoras took on the duty's of The First Warden" if it all read like that I'd be down to support and the rest comming out) I'm saying I don't know Altmoras from any other defender. Again you do, because you switched sides, I don't know what makes them special to a community I'm not in so asking to be told what seperates Altmoras from TB, from Dead Eye, from Roavin. Because before I wasn't, but as I've seen more and more I want to know more and more. I don't think is a big ask, since you're asking me to vote on it. Sorry I don't want to do that uninformed. I don't want it to be exclusive. I want it to speak about Nation specifically, and not about defenderism as a whole. Don't tell me a defense they did was a good thing. Tell me what good thing they did during that defense. I literally have nothing against Altmoras other than I've never had a conversation with them, but this isn't telling me enough.

Now I admit maybe innovative was a wrong word choice, but asking for more information on what make someone special to that community in a section of NS were innovation is key was my go to. What I want to know is what makes Altmoras special to that community above and beyond showing up to raids. What made them so endeared to Laz as a WAD other than starting a Discord/Forum/Line of communication. SAying we think this person is special is great, tell me why you think that person is special is what I'm asking though.

I'm sorry if that too much and I'm sorry if my rhetoric came off as harsh, I do want to point the only time I accused the contribution of being not enough, because it was never about the contribution to defending, is when I compared it to the rhetoric of the org they're in, but that more a critique of their rhetoric, than Altmoras contribution. Now Hell I do not get but I'd deal with hell. Give me more detail on what makes it such a special place other than their exclusivity, which hey look we all agree up in this thread isn't always a good thing.

Maybe the vote does reflect they deserve, maybe I'm wrong, but just as an aside calling an idea you disagree with indecent, that doesn't harm another person, is more fucked up than I've said, something that I never expected from you.
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 11:06 am

Outer Sparta wrote:What in your mind counts for someone to be commendable? That they do everything they possibly can and be more commendable than past nominees? That's not how it works.


You want to know what's commendable? Doing anti-fasc raids because I know what that means to a community. Working hard to connect with the community an individual is in, and having those folks say hey they made a difference, and this is the way they made their unique contribution and why it's different from others, even if they're kind of the same.

For example
Instead of Altmoras particpated in a 50 main pile on against ___ Region. (well 49 other people did that what made their contribution unqiue?)

Altmoras participated in a 50 man pile on against ____ Regions. During that 50 man pile on Altmoras routinely worked with Libcord to increase and develop the number of nations working on the front line. Their unique contribution and attitude contributed to the success of the mission by bringing in much needed reinforcements.

3000 ?

How about telling me that Altmoras was always the first to volunteer for military assignments taking the lead on ____ mission out the 3000 they participated in, setting them apart. That in that span of 3000 they were noted as integral TGW's war effort against the raiders.

Or as WAD

Altmoras set up communication lines that reflect the need as well as the "coporate" (i dunno if that was still Laz's schtick back them) culture of the region known as Lazarus that is still utilized today. It is the same one that become to central to the military of Lazarus.

Like telling me why their contributions matter, and why they're different than everyone elses. Why is this too much to ask? Again I think Python did a good job at the end, but the rest doesn't have the same feel of uniqueness and of actually appreciation that has been lack in what is lately primarily defender commends, because that's all we've been seeing from the R/D community lately in the SC.

I even said saying well wait till the next one is super valid, but how can I containable vote for something that a community not mine is asking me to vote on without being adequately informed? If the R/D community doesn't want people outside of their community to vote on it don't put it forward in the SC save it till the Liberty Gala for DefenderCon.

Going on a bunch of raids doesn't seem special to me. Starting a discord anyone can do. I'm asking what flavor, what passion, what unique ideas did Altmoras bring, and what could only Altmoras bring, because handing this shit out like candy with out flavor to anyone, We deserve better they deserve better than being a list of numbers of raids, that they describe as easy.
Last edited by Nova Vandalia on Fri May 21, 2021 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Fri May 21, 2021 12:04 pm

The question must be asked - where were you, Nova Vandalia, during the drafting phase of this proposal? For someone with so many problems with this submission you were conspicuous by your absence.
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Postby Tinhampton » Fri May 21, 2021 12:19 pm

The LazCorp theme was introduced after Altmoras finished his last term as Lazarus' WA Delegate, for the record.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri May 21, 2021 12:30 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:The question must be asked - where were you, Nova Vandalia, during the drafting phase of this proposal? For someone with so many problems with this submission you were conspicuous by your absence.

Maybe their absence was due to them not wanting Altmoras having a commendation in the first place. Because why bother giving feedback if you don't want the nominee to succeed?
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Postby The Python » Fri May 21, 2021 12:33 pm

Nova Vandalia wrote:Altmoras set up communication lines that reflect the need as well as the "coporate" (i dunno if that was still Laz's schtick back them) culture of the region known as Lazarus that is still utilized today. It is the same one that become to central to the military of Lazarus.


Wut, no. Lazcorp was introduced in 2018 when the coup government/Khanate of Lazarus was overthrown by Imkiville
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 12:42 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:The question must be asked - where were you, Nova Vandalia, during the drafting phase of this proposal? For someone with so many problems with this submission you were conspicuous by your absence.


You're right I didn't have input at the time, and I didn't look at it at the time, but that doesn't invalidate my stance. What do you want me to say I don't generally like the SC, in my list of priorities in life it's low. L So I didn't read it then, but when I saw it was up to vote I looked at it. I spend most of my time on NS adding to the Culture of my region. Does the fact that my NS and RL priorities are different than other mean I shouldn't have a say to express my opinion? Because that at least what it feels like you're implying. I've commented on other ones when I've noticed them, some at vote some not, and some I've never commented on. I mean if you want to know why people feel like they cant offer their opinions in the SC it's the kind of implied stance you're taking that's the reason why "The SC has to be a priority of else what you say doesn't count." Which is so wrong if it as an organization allows and is set up so that anyone is allowed to participate in and be involved in conversations in. I don't think you mean it to be, but that sort of statement certainly feels like an attempt at being exclusionary to folk by invalidating their right to express an opinion.

So I think I still have a right to ask that commends convey why a person means so much to their community beyond numbers of missions and loose terms like "created a line of communication." I'm sure if I knew Altmoras I'd be calling anyone doing what I'm doing an idiot. But I don't know them and I'm asking to through the lens of how a Commend is written which is apparently taboo to put forward in the place where they're written?

To call for some difference beyond just numerical values in mission between candidates? To ask that aside from changing regions names and positions names that a little bit more details and personality of the nation is included so I actually know why what they did matters to the nation who put them up?
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Nova Vandalia
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 12:45 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:The question must be asked - where were you, Nova Vandalia, during the drafting phase of this proposal? For someone with so many problems with this submission you were conspicuous by your absence.

Maybe their absence was due to them not wanting Altmoras having a commendation in the first place. Because why bother giving feedback if you don't want the nominee to succeed?


Oh no I apologize. I work full time IRL, I prioritize hanging out in my regions discord, and I enjoy getting outside now that the weathers nice. AS I said I have no issues with Altmoras, I even said look at me and saying "Why Altmoras" is valid. This just happened to be the time I noticed the issue. If it will help you not make accusation I'll gladly vote for this one and the next one to lack any really feelings comes up I'll bitch then. Would that satisfy you and free me from your pointless droning for when I do inevitable see another one?
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Refuge Isle
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Postby Refuge Isle » Fri May 21, 2021 1:28 pm

Nova Vandalia wrote:"For players in r/d which have contributed massively to the success and continuity of their faction, security council resolutions are an appropriate way to recognize and award that contribution"

Valid Opinion, one I happen to agree with, but massively being the operative word there means you have to compare it to the average contributions, and I'm saying that's not on display in this. They have the same contributions as the other 39 and 49 people who went on those big pile ones. They have the same contributions to anyone who has participated in a large number of raids. I've said time and time again I'm not saying this individual isn't worthy I've said the way it is written doesn't tell me that. That's what I know of TGW the way it reads is commonplace, not massive. I'm not saying they have to top others I am saying they have to be relatively unique, otherwise everyone deserves a commend. You on the other hands see no issue with turning C&C into a participation trophy not based around contribution but longevity when it comes to R&D. And let not that you massively, but again the rhetoric of TGW, is that defending lately isn't really a big deal. Their current one is that they literally killed raiding and don't have competition. They don't have anything to contribute since there is no competitor. So again which is it? Is TGW's rhetoric wrong? Tell me why this stuff disagrees with that? Tell me why it wasn't easy?

I'm not here to defend TGW, but we're all functionally playing the same game that has existed for years, so it makes sense that the achievements of resolution targets follow the same themes and patterns. When NS deletes this content and replaces it with fundamentally different ones, the resolutions will certainly take on a different appearance. But then again, I can't say that folks took well to card-based resolutions being added. :p

By all means challenge the resolution on the grounds of its construction, oppose it on factional grounds if you wish. I'm not disappointed by that, rather I think it's expected. My commentary is aimed at keeping things realistic about what should be expected in a resolution, you implied that things should be greater and larger for each resolution and that's rather silly. Expecting defending content to be tremendously different in theme from content five years ago is also silly. There's like three things that raiders do and three things that defenders do. Sometimes that gets creative, but wins, losses, history and what have you will still repeat.

Nova Vandalia wrote:Now you see if I want to win this argument I would try and twist your words here " tens of thousands of players" because we know that you don't think tens and thousands of player are worthy of Commends right?

That's not really so much of a "win" as locating a bad-faith talking point. Such things are not productive to me. My original intention was that out of tens of thousands of players over the twelve years this institution has existed, we've only passed 124 commendations, not all of those have stuck and not all of those have been about players. I have no way of knowing how many unique players there have been in that time, but if we say 100,000 (likely a dire underestimate given the number of WA nations through the years and average nation age), we have a 0.1% award rate. I think there's been more commendable players than that, but we've lost our chance on many of them.

Nova Vandalia wrote:Maybe the vote does reflect they deserve, maybe I'm wrong, but just as an aside calling an idea you disagree with indecent, that doesn't harm another person, is more fucked up than I've said, something that I never expected from you.

Calling an idea "not decent" and "inappropriate", as that word means, is not the war crime you are making it out to be. "Fucked up" is vastly stronger language.

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Postby Aleisynium » Fri May 21, 2021 2:07 pm

Northern Connecticut wrote:This is personally offensive to me. The Devil and hell represent literal evil in my eyes. I can't believe the WA would commend that region or that nation. Hard no. No now and forever. Never shall I vote for anything like this. NO. NO. NO. I cannot believe people think Satanism is cool or whatever. First the satan shoes and now this. Society has gone crazy. Long live the Catholic Church.

Hell isn’t the church of satan. Just an underworld/hell themed region, not a cult :p

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Postby The Python » Fri May 21, 2021 2:09 pm

Aleisynium wrote:
Northern Connecticut wrote:This is personally offensive to me. The Devil and hell represent literal evil in my eyes. I can't believe the WA would commend that region or that nation. Hard no. No now and forever. Never shall I vote for anything like this. NO. NO. NO. I cannot believe people think Satanism is cool or whatever. First the satan shoes and now this. Society has gone crazy. Long live the Catholic Church.

Hell isn’t the church of satan. Just an underworld/hell themed region, not a cult :p

Even worse, The Church of Satan is, in fact, a former delegate of the Rejected Realms so :P
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Postby Aleisynium » Fri May 21, 2021 2:15 pm

The Python wrote:
Aleisynium wrote:Hell isn’t the church of satan. Just an underworld/hell themed region, not a cult :p

Even worse, The Church of Satan is, in fact, a former delegate of the Rejected Realms so :P

That’s true :rofl:

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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 2:33 pm

Refuge Isle wrote:
Nova Vandalia wrote:"For players in r/d which have contributed massively to the success and continuity of their faction, security council resolutions are an appropriate way to recognize and award that contribution"

Valid Opinion, one I happen to agree with, but massively being the operative word there means you have to compare it to the average contributions, and I'm saying that's not on display in this. They have the same contributions as the other 39 and 49 people who went on those big pile ones. They have the same contributions to anyone who has participated in a large number of raids. I've said time and time again I'm not saying this individual isn't worthy I've said the way it is written doesn't tell me that. That's what I know of TGW the way it reads is commonplace, not massive. I'm not saying they have to top others I am saying they have to be relatively unique, otherwise everyone deserves a commend. You on the other hands see no issue with turning C&C into a participation trophy not based around contribution but longevity when it comes to R&D. And let not that you massively, but again the rhetoric of TGW, is that defending lately isn't really a big deal. Their current one is that they literally killed raiding and don't have competition. They don't have anything to contribute since there is no competitor. So again which is it? Is TGW's rhetoric wrong? Tell me why this stuff disagrees with that? Tell me why it wasn't easy?

I'm not here to defend TGW, but we're all functionally playing the same game that has existed for years, so it makes sense that the achievements of resolution targets follow the same themes and patterns. When NS deletes this content and replaces it with fundamentally different ones, the resolutions will certainly take on a different appearance. But then again, I can't say that folks took well to card-based resolutions being added. :p

By all means challenge the resolution on the grounds of its construction, oppose it on factional grounds if you wish. I'm not disappointed by that, rather I think it's expected. My commentary is aimed at keeping things realistic about what should be expected in a resolution, you implied that things should be greater and larger for each resolution and that's rather silly. Expecting defending content to be tremendously different in theme from content five years ago is also silly. There's like three things that raiders do and three things that defenders do. Sometimes that gets creative, but wins, losses, history and what have you will still repeat.

Nova Vandalia wrote:Now you see if I want to win this argument I would try and twist your words here " tens of thousands of players" because we know that you don't think tens and thousands of player are worthy of Commends right?

That's not really so much of a "win" as locating a bad-faith talking point. Such things are not productive to me. My original intention was that out of tens of thousands of players over the twelve years this institution has existed, we've only passed 124 commendations, not all of those have stuck and not all of those have been about players. I have no way of knowing how many unique players there have been in that time, but if we say 100,000 (likely a dire underestimate given the number of WA nations through the years and average nation age), we have a 0.1% award rate. I think there's been more commendable players than that, but we've lost our chance on many of them.

Nova Vandalia wrote:Maybe the vote does reflect they deserve, maybe I'm wrong, but just as an aside calling an idea you disagree with indecent, that doesn't harm another person, is more fucked up than I've said, something that I never expected from you.

Calling an idea "not decent" and "inappropriate", as that word means, is not the war crime you are making it out to be. "Fucked up" is vastly stronger language.


I explained to you why that word bothered me so much and this isn't the place to hash that out. But you're better than using the term war crime and belittling what that actually mean and you know I didn't make it out to be such.

And again I apologize if you think I was trying to be exclusionary. That was not my point. I'm not talking about the bar being moved for anyone. I've argued in this forum to make it easier in the past much to your charging at the time, I've argued for a nicer approach to new writers as well, one of which I may have failed at myself in my initial post, but what I most certainly am trying to get across, is that simply listing accomplishments like a resume for defenders shouldn't cut it, it's not special, it's not award worthy. What is award worthy is when the writing makes me feel connected and understanding of what the invidiuals mean to the community proposing the commend. As I stated I don't know Altmoras, I don't what they mean to defenders to TGW, to Lay, I also have been told what they mean in the commend. Ive been told a list of numbers. What I am talking about is changing how we talk about the bar. I'm talking about the bar for writers I suppose, in that lists shouldn't cut it.

The first time i got interested in this forum I was a scathing asshole, and often times I still end up there, because a repeal of a friends commendation made me take a look. It was personal and I fought tooth and nail didn't care about reputations or anything. I want to read that people feel the same about the commendations they make. I want them to be personal, to have spirit. The reason I mentioned defenders is because ofttimes it has just boiled down to accomplishments and not how that accomplishments inspired, not how those accomplishments were hard fought, and not how that individual preserved. The reason I used the list is so you can see how simple the wording tends to be _____ did _______ and is worthy. I don't commendations to be an awards not a rubber-stamped resume. And there was a reason I didn't take that bait but point it out about the tens of thousands, because it was a bad point and wasn't true to the argument.

So I apologize if I came out misconstrued, but Hell need a fiery explanation as to why that exclusivity makes it great. Lazurus need enliven lines of communications and to tell us how it brought the region back as though from a state of babel.

Sometimes i over look the writing because I know how I feel, and I respect the ones who feel that way too like even if I do get snarky toward them. I'm a passionate person, and asking for passion when it comes to commend and condemns is always going to be something I want to see, for Defender, for RPers, for Raiders, for Card folks. If you're gonna cast them into the spotlight use the damned spotlight to highlight emotively. The Python did that at points it was great, but throughout I just don't personally feels from this what I should, that they're had a meaningful impact, because I've read this story for the 16th time. Don't give me the Taming Shrew each time, occasionally put on 10 things I hate about you and have me connect with the story.
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Postby HumanSanity » Fri May 21, 2021 2:51 pm

For what it's worth, there's some truth in Nova's critique that I agree with. This resolution lacks flavor, emotion, or broader narrative. It's a fantastic resume and well meets the on-paper bar for Commendability but the writing could certainly do better to explain why Altmoras is Commendable. To be quite honest, this "additional level" of explaining the character of the nominee and the value they have to their communities is the highest level form of writing in C/Cs that I think we all strive for and the extent to which you "require" it as a prerequisite to voting for a C/C is something I think we can reasonably debate. There's a lot of specific writing strategies I could point to that might help with communicating these feelings, such as intro and conclusion clauses (so long as they go beyond "Noting Nominee Commendable" and instead characterize why), attempting to infuse language about the nominee's contributions you get from secondary sources into the clauses, or organizing by some form of chronological or character-development oriented idea. I think it's entirely reasonable to say this proposal text is lacking in those areas and also for Nova to then be left wondering what makes the nominee special.

In the case of Altmoras, I've only been interacting with him recently as we hadn't overlapped until about 2 months ago, but so far he seems dedicated, detailed, professional, a clear communicator, and well-reasoned. Others who have worked with him more extensively could probably provide more of those quality details and descriptors which I wish had made its way into the resolution.

I don't agree with your dismissal of the Hell and UPPERCUT clause because I think those get fantastically at the significance Altmoras did have for a community. Hell's Trials/Underworld system is one of the most intensive and innovative in founderless region security, allowing the region to both have a Delegate-imposed password and still grow its community in a relatively secure manner. Specifically, by requiring new members to demonstrate their loyalty and consistency in The Underworld, Hell ensures new members are less likely to be infiltrators from raider regions while still giving them a path to join the community. In this way, Altmoras helped ensure Hell (a name which itself certainly has significance) didn't become a raider/defender battleground with difficulty in sustainable development, but rather had a clear way to safeguard its community while also preserving its RMB and History pages. Taking this a step further, because of Alt's leading role in the Horsemen of the Apocalypse N-Day Alliance, this relatively small but tight-knit community gets to have an annual event where it is not only present but at the forefront of international activities despite otherwise being relatively quiet and compact (although no less valuable to its members). I think The Stalker's far more brief comment here speaks to that.

As to some of the rest of what you said, I want to raise disagreement with some specific points:
Nova Vandalia wrote:1) I'm tired of "They're a Defender" being genuinely the only reason we give out commends, like congrats we have like 20 defender orgs,

Realistically, we have like 5 defender orgs that are active right now (SPSF, TGW, TITO, RRA, LDF) with a few other supports. The fact that Altmoras is a key leader and builder of one of those - TGW - is pretty significant.

I don't think the resolution proposes to give Alt a Commend simply for being a defender but rather for building defending.

Nova Vandalia wrote:you fantastic (and i do mean fantastic) campaign for making defenderism the winning outlook, is exactly the reason simply leading defense is no longer commendable, you made yourself not special. Tell me how they innovated, how they recruited for Libcord or something, just saying they did some raids and got promoted is really lazy writing when it comes to commends, and we should ask for better. Explain not how they're a defender but how they changed "defending". Sure 3000 is a lot but when you're doing the amount of De-Tag TGW talks about every weekend it seems less impressive.

I don't think the 3000 number is being used in this Commend as the primary argument for it, it's just a detail to quantitatively prove Altmoras' dedication to the cause. It's not on its own Commendable. In writing a Commend, you have to please a variety of different readers. It's clear you have a preference for qualitative descriptors, which I think is a valid preference, but others like quantitative measures, and I think the 3000 number caters to those people.

I think there's an extent to which the TGW clause of the Commend does talk about how Altmoras contributed to/changed "defending" as well. Altmoras is not just a foot soldier but an officer with a role in shaping the direction of the faction throughout recent history.

Nova Vandalia wrote:I'm saying this doesn't display what makes Altmora special considering everyone and their mother has been commended for the exact sam ethings.

I don't entirely agree with this. Hell's system is unique for the reasons explained in the Commend and in this post earlier on. While Altmoras is "another defender", he definitely did contribute in a unique manner to defending and its organizations as outlined in the text. He was a leader of the Humane Republic of Lazarus and the Lazarene Liberation Army (LLA) at a unique moment in the history of that region and those institutions. You're right for sure that the author could do a better job highlighting the distinctiveness of this, which is my critique of the writing as explained above, but not the concept.

Nova Vandalia wrote:You understand that, right? It's not special anymore. Dead-Eye, Roavin, BT, XKI, Markanite, Honeydew, Kuriko, Gray Harbor, Duxburian, Woonsocket, Paffnia, Xoriet, Frattastan, Guy ect. All of them for the same Defender stuff

I don't think these examples really stand up to scrutiny. XKI is the only active defender region with a Commend and regional Commendations are a whole other (and generally more difficult) nut to crack. There's some overlap between Deadeye Jack and BT's Commends in no small part because they're close friends and have often worked together throughout their history in the game, but both have left (and continue to leave) their mark. There's also some overlap between Fratt and Guy's Commends since they're both FRA/RRA leadership involved in TRR, but each also was active at somewhat distinct time periods and had their own unique contribution. Duxburian Union's Commend has a unique flavor because it's not only a defender commendation, but also a defender leadership commendation, and a role play commendation, and a defender tech development commendation. Roavin's is yet another flavor because it's similar to Duxburian's in many ways but without the role playing elements and with a greater emphasis on his role in NS Antifa and in political work in TSP. Grays Harbor was primarily commended for GA work so feels like an odd name to throw on this list even if they were once a defender. Xoriet was commended for, among other things, leadership of LWU, a decidedly raider organization, and has devoted a lot of time to the NPO and TEP, which are non-partisan regions. There's thematic similarities to the Commendations of Woonsocket and Markanite because both were XKI establishmentarian region-builders but also neither was really a defending commendation, it was an afterthought in both compared to emphasizing the work they did in XKI. Paffnia's Commendation shouldn't even be read in the same category as those because his XKI career has been defined extensively by anti-establishment internal politics and celebrates the fact that he succeeded both because of and in spite of this in a region that is incredibly resistant to change (also, notably, was only marginally a defending commendation). Lenly was an XKIer but also a brand unto himself internationally with a diversity of contributions and a pretty unique history of regional contributions. And finally, Honeydew wasn't even commended for defending and is in fact part of the independent organization Lily.

All that ramble taken together, I don't think it's actually for the "same stuff".

Nova Vandalia wrote:And let not that you massively, but again the rhetoric of TGW, is that defending lately isn't really a big deal. Their current one is that they literally killed raiding and don't have competition. They don't have anything to contribute since there is no competitor. So again which is it? Is TGW's rhetoric wrong? Tell me why this stuff disagrees with that? Tell me why it wasn't easy?

I think this misunderstands how we got into that position. Defending, collectively and relatively to raiding, is in a very strong position right now but is not insurmountable or easy work. However, it has not always been this way and reaching this point has involved a tireless amount of recruiting, organization-building, training, community-building, technology-construction, foreign affairs, and strategic work by people in the prominent defender organizations of this moment. Lots of regions are getting defended right now and ones that get raided are largely getting liberated quickly, but right now we're riding the high of what is a years long (re)building effort for the faction and its contributors. The commendation argues that Altmoras has been a significant part of that rebuilding process, and I think we could debate the extent to which Altmoras has been a part of that or the way the resolution proves that, but I think it is not argumentatively defensible to argue that "defending super easy, why are we commending defenders?".
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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Fri May 21, 2021 2:54 pm

Tbh. Theres a way better way to vote against. Just dont vote for proposals made by snakes because snakes are bad. Problem solved

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Postby The Python » Fri May 21, 2021 7:07 pm

Great Algerstonia wrote:Tbh. Theres a way better way to vote against. Just dont vote for proposals made by snakes because snakes are bad. Problem solved

Hiss.
Card Farmer/Fenda/WA Author/Kiwi. Positions. Nation mostly represents RL views. Opinions are not necessarily representative of any of my regions.
For:Universal healthcare,Socialism,Pacifism,Human/animal rights,Democracy etc.
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Political compass 9Axes 8Values
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I wish i could be quoted in a forum sig v_v - Alfonzo
anyone more than double python's age is old - Altmoras
The difference between an invader and an imperialist is that ... the imperialist will write several paragraphs about how the region's poll officer's cousin's friend's soccer coach once arranged his fridge magnets to spell out FRA and this is therefore a great leap forward in their war effort. - Altmoras
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Postby Nova Vandalia » Fri May 21, 2021 7:12 pm

HumanSanity wrote: -snip-



First thank you being the first person this thread to accept that maybe another opinion can be had and thank you for actually focusing on the areas of my concern.

" Hell's Trials/Underworld system is one of the most intensive and innovative in founderless region security, allowing the region to both have a Delegate-imposed password and still grow its community in a relatively secure manner."

This I get, this makes sense. I didn't know Hell was founderless, because have a fancy way into citizenship from trials to tests is one thing, but building that around a scaffold of security is really cool. I didn't know that built into it, the security of the region was never mentioned. But I don't know that because again never interacted with Hell, until you were the first nation to sit down and explain it.

"I don't think the resolution proposes to give Alt a Commend simply for being a defender but rather for building defending."

I don't see that? If it talked about recruiting or mentoring new defenders, or innovation in several spots I'd get that it talks about it once near the bottom. It never talks about building, it talks about leading but that can be from being point a few times too, simply holding a command position. I'm not a defender insider, I'm not a raider insider. I don't what that looks like beyond my 3 nights raiding. If you want people to understand the difference it needs explained, which I'm thankful you've taken the time to do.

"Realistically, we have like 5 defender orgs that are active right now (SPSF, TGW, TITO, RRA, LDF) with a few other supports. The fact that Altmoras is a key leader and builder of one of those - TGW - is pretty significant."

Might be great but we also see names like Lily, JTF, and other smaller orgs listed right? Know I am fortunate here to know TGW is a major one, because I have acquaintances in it, and really this is the one org where I feel it was explained well why Altmoras was important. in this clause "High Constable from November 2016 to January 2017, where, as a result of First Warden Roavin's preoccupation as Minister of Defence of the South Pacific, they assumed most of the duties as de facto leader of TGW, went on to lead TGW on liberations like the sieges of Asiana and liberation of Coalition of Sovereign Nations, both in 2016, and also helped build and maintain relations with NSLeft and the Augustin Alliance," because this starts of with an adverse problem the community had and told me how Altmoras solved it. It where I thought the resolution shows the most promise.

"In writing a Commend, you have to please a variety of different readers. It's clear you have a preference for qualitative descriptors, which I think is a valid preference, but others like quantitative measures, and I think the 3000 number caters to those people."

Yes I get that but they've all felt like history text books and number games and that is an issue to me.

"it's just a detail to quantitatively prove Altmoras' dedication to the cause"

Dedication I get, I'm never gonna get numbers and that all I see lately, is server year - year here did mission with name I don't recognize, that means nothing to me because I have no concept of what it did and who it saved. If words like dedication, perserverance, were used I'd get that, and more important I'd feel that. But there is a very visceral difference in an " extensive career " and "a long career dedicated to serve" One tell you what they did, which again doesn't mean anything to me because the context doesn't usually mean anything to me because I don't mess with that, but the emotions I get.

" He was a leader of the Humane Republic of Lazarus and the Lazarene Liberation Army (LLA) at a unique moment in the history of that region and those institutions" What unique about those moments? Genuine because I have no idea? I don't mess with Laz as seen by me asking when the theme got switched. I have no context for why that's stuff is special, other being told it's special and that I should assume it was by people yelling at me.

"I'm not quoting the next one because it's long" but you might be right, but I don't know those differences. Libcord seems like on community to me, while those things may be different the defender career is all mentioned in the most matter of fact way. It's not treated like it's special. The emphasis on anti fascism is the only time, it has ever stood out to me as something I say "I get that" instead they read like the list or filler which is how I've learned to read it every time. It doesn't feel special because Paff got mentioned for also being participating in defense, in getting TITO battlestars, it's the first two major paragraphs of it. Is Paff commendable yes, they're a genuine and kind and caring individual I know who cares deeply for thier community and it always willing to listen to folks no matter how important or otherwise, so why mentioned TITO at all? You're expecting the average reader to differentiate when defense is filler or the meat. Seeing such and such did such and such a defense also feel really the same, without telling use why that particular defense stands out. I don't know Asiana from a whole in the ground, but I'm not the one writing it, I don't know why the defense of them was important, native sovereignty doesn't cut it for me.

And yet for the final bit my only question is you're asking new players who don't touch on R/D to know that?

Resolution are supposed to enlightened us, voters have no expectation to do research, we're expected to have it handed to us. All we see is the propaganda of either side typically the one winning, so what else are folks mainly uninvolved supposed to think.

I've done literally 2 nights of raiding, I piled on the embassy, and I did a Tito thing once under name I don't use beyond keeping it alive.

Your explanations have helped a lot HS. I do think Altmoras is commendable, now. I still like you said want more qualitative and want more narrative information because I don't know so I go on how it makes me feel. I'm not a logical person, I'm emotional one, and I'm not a defender, I'm barely a raider, but I do have voice and a vote (mind you in the grand scheme of things the vote doesn't count for much but still damn it!). This just happened to be one of several commends for defenders that from an outside perspective when it went unexplained seemed samey and is the first one I haven't known on a more personable level, either currently or in a pervious nation.
Be Ruthless to Systems, Be Kind to People.

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