Repeal: SC #2 (draft)

[KIDS Country]

Thank you, Praeceps and Sedgistan. That being said, I do want to hear a little more about Kandarin, and depending on whether I can get a coauthor to pen a replacement, I might submit the proposal.

Quality-wise, is my proposal up to scratch?

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Thank you, Praeceps and Sedgistan. That being said, I do want to hear a little more about Kandarin, and depending on whether I can get a coauthor to pen a replacement, I might submit the proposal.

Quality-wise, is my proposal up to scratch?

Not really, I mean these are the only two clauses that do not start with either “Acknowledging” or “Objecting”

BELIEVING that declining to eject competition should be the standard, and therefore not commendable material,

CONCERNED that SCR 2 falls short of detailing specific conduct warranting a commendation,

A bit more originality in your clause openings wouldn’t go amiss. Still, no support from me and I will recommend an “Against” vote to TWP’s Delegate should it get that far.

[Outer Sparta]

Thank you, Praeceps and Sedgistan. That being said, I do want to hear a little more about Kandarin, and depending on whether I can get a coauthor to pen a replacement, I might submit the proposal.

Quality-wise, is my proposal up to scratch?

You do need to add more to it aside from it just being "it's illegal today." I'm against it for those reasons but make sure you have more content.

[Drop Your Pants]

That being said, I do want to hear a little more about Kandarin

Check out TRR's forum, they'll have the history of him. Something you could have done beforehand but not everyone does research before they badge hunt.

[KIDS Country]

That being said, I do want to hear a little more about Kandarin

Check out TRR's forum, they'll have the history of him. Something you could have done beforehand but not everyone does research before they badge hunt.

The fact that I need to go to TRR's (an external, presumably) forum to figure out what someone did to earn a SC commendation is in and of itself a red flag.

need to add more to it aside from it just being "it's illegal today."

Second, the primary complaint is no longer "it's illegal now" it's "theres nothing of substance here"

[Comfed]

Check out TRR's forum, they'll have the history of him. Something you could have done beforehand but not everyone does research before they badge hunt.

The fact that I need to go to TRR's (an external, presumably) forum to figure out what someone did to earn a SC commendation is in and of itself a red flag.

What, you think their achievements are going to be on the nation page? Every quality SC proposal is researched. If that were really a red flag then most C/Cs would be easily repealed

[Crowheim]

Check out TRR's forum, they'll have the history of him. Something you could have done beforehand but not everyone does research before they badge hunt.

The fact that I need to go to TRR's (an external, presumably) forum to figure out what someone did to earn a SC commendation is in and of itself a red flag.

need to add more to it aside from it just being "it's illegal today."

Second, the primary complaint is no longer "it's illegal now" it's "theres nothing of substance here"

Oh my gosh you'd have to go to Kandarin's regions historical records to find out information about Kandarin? The scandal.

[KIDS Country]

The fact that I need to go to TRR's (an external, presumably) forum to figure out what someone did to earn a SC commendation is in and of itself a red flag.



Second, the primary complaint is no longer "it's illegal now" it's "theres nothing of substance here"

Oh my gosh you'd have to go to Kandarin's regions historical records to find out information about Kandarin? The scandal.

That raises the question regarding whether Kandarin did more for their region or for NS.

In any case, I've flipped around for several hours and either my lack of sleep for the past several days is getting to me or I'm not bumping into much commendable material that has an impact on NS.

Also, the proposal I'm planning to repeal is five lines long. I, as a 2017 nation, suffer from the notable disadvantage of not being around sixteen years prior to my nation's founding, and therefore are liable to misconstructions of the content of TRR. Hence why I ask for a kind soul to assist in the process.

[Outer Sparta]

Oh my gosh you'd have to go to Kandarin's regions historical records to find out information about Kandarin? The scandal.

That raises the question regarding whether Kandarin did more for their region or for NS.

In any case, I've flipped around for several hours and either my lack of sleep for the past several days is getting to me or I'm not bumping into much commendable material that has an impact on NS.

Also, the proposal I'm planning to repeal is five lines long. I, as a 2017 nation, suffer from the notable disadvantage of not being around sixteen years prior to my nation's founding, and therefore are liable to misconstructions of the content of TRR. Hence why I ask for a kind soul to assist in the process.

Which is why you have to follow through with the research process and consult the proper channels such as an external forum to have a quality proposal. You can't just slap on a few sentences, say this proposal is illegal today, and expect people to support it.

[KIDS Country]

That raises the question regarding whether Kandarin did more for their region or for NS.

In any case, I've flipped around for several hours and either my lack of sleep for the past several days is getting to me or I'm not bumping into much commendable material that has an impact on NS.

Also, the proposal I'm planning to repeal is five lines long. I, as a 2017 nation, suffer from the notable disadvantage of not being around sixteen years prior to my nation's founding, and therefore are liable to misconstructions of the content of TRR. Hence why I ask for a kind soul to assist in the process.

Which is why you have to follow through with the research process and consult the proper channels such as an external forum to have a quality proposal. You can't just slap on a few sentences, say this proposal is illegal today, and expect people to support it.

I do not have the capacity to muster the patience to explain for the seventh time that the current illegality of the target is no longer the primary argumentation for the repeal of this resolution, but instead serves as auxiliary argumentation for why this resolution is utterly horrendous.

Furthermore, my research on external channels can only do so much in averting the invariable misconstruction of the contents of the text. Without someone who was on the ground at the time, there is but much that I can do in penning an accurate replacement.

I would like to remind you once more that you are exhausting significant effort defending these four lines:

RECOGNIZING the player of Kandarin as a leader in various aspects of NationStates.

OBSERVING his tireless efforts in maintaining order, stability, and leadership in a "collecting" region without means of ejecting or banning the competition.

VIEWING his knowledge, teaching, and leadership in NationStates roleplay, in both in character and out of character aspects, for off-site and on-site forums.

OFFICALLY praises the player behind the nation of Kandarin and recognizes his achievements with a commendation from the World Assembly.

Every single line of this resolution is flawed / problematic in some way or another, never mind the shockingly creative spelling of the term "officially" in line 4, AND from an honest standpoint, this resolution tells me absolutely nothing about Kandarin's contributions.

Since you clearly have the experience necessary to comprehend the sheer magnitude of Kandarin's achievements, and since you've so tirelessly worked to ensure Kandarin gets the recognition they deserve, perhaps you would kindly assist in narrating the specific work (links/evidence unnecessary but appreciated - although if I want to write a functional and legal alternative, IIRC links are discouraged, as are references to external materials, thus rendering any offsite work extremely difficult to integrate without an onsite counterpart) Kandarin has undertaken to deserve a Commendation?

[Outer Sparta]

Which is why you have to follow through with the research process and consult the proper channels such as an external forum to have a quality proposal. You can't just slap on a few sentences, say this proposal is illegal today, and expect people to support it.

I do not have the capacity to muster the patience to explain for the seventh time that the current illegality of the target is no longer the primary argumentation for the repeal of this resolution, but instead serves as auxiliary argumentation for why this resolution is utterly horrendous.

Furthermore, my research on external channels can only do so much in averting the invariable misconstruction of the contents of the text. Without someone who was on the ground at the time, there is but much that I can do in penning an accurate replacement.

I would like to remind you once more that you are exhausting significant effort defending these four lines:

RECOGNIZING the player of Kandarin as a leader in various aspects of NationStates.

OBSERVING his tireless efforts in maintaining order, stability, and leadership in a "collecting" region without means of ejecting or banning the competition.

VIEWING his knowledge, teaching, and leadership in NationStates roleplay, in both in character and out of character aspects, for off-site and on-site forums.

OFFICALLY praises the player behind the nation of Kandarin and recognizes his achievements with a commendation from the World Assembly.

Every single line of this resolution is flawed / problematic in some way or another, never mind the shockingly creative spelling of the term "officially" in line 4, AND from an honest standpoint, this resolution tells me absolutely nothing about Kandarin's contributions.

Since you clearly have the experience necessary to comprehend the sheer magnitude of Kandarin's achievements, and since you've so tirelessly worked to ensure Kandarin gets the recognition they deserve, perhaps you would kindly assist in narrating the specific work (links/evidence unnecessary but appreciated - although if I want to write a functional and legal alternative, IIRC links are discouraged, as are references to external materials, thus rendering any offsite work extremely difficult to integrate without an onsite counterpart) Kandarin has undertaken to deserve a Commendation?

I don't know much about Kandarin since I wasn't on the site when the SC was in its infancy. I can't direct you to any links, but you can still ask veteran players for more research on your proposal and they will show you the appropriate material you need. Otherwise, it just reeks of opportunism if you're going to repeal some old resolution without doing much research.

Also, how could I work to get Kandarin commended if I wasn't even on the site when the commendation happened? Please don't assume things like that I pushed the commendation of Kandarin or whatnot.

[Outer Sparta]

I'll just comb through the resolution and say my extended thoughts.

However OBJECTING to the impropriety of SC 2's personification of a nation,

So? I don't see this point as one that stands out considering it was fine to personify a nation back in the day.

OBJECTING to the impropriety of SC 2's utilization of third-person pronouns,

Again, nothing to persuade me that the commendation should be repealed because third-person pronouns to refer a nation could be used back then.

BELIEVING that declining to eject competition should be the standard, and therefore not commendable material,

I don't think this stands out well like you want it to. I see it as more filler material just like the parts of going after third-person pronouns.

OBSERVING that SC 2 contains virtually nothing of substance,

CONCERNED that SC 2 falls short of detailing specific conduct warranting a commendation

Seems like more filler material and sounds redundant to say it contains nothing of substance and doesn't detail anything worthy of a commendation.

ACKNOWLEDGING that much of Kandarin's work was more than commendable, but that SC 2 fails to appropriate fitting recognition thereof, and

ACKNOWLEDGING that the aforementioned failure to detail conduct defeats the point of a commendation, which is to acknowledge and record significant contributions for posterity,

These are perhaps your strongest points, even if they still fall a bit flat. You mention that Kandarin's work is commendable, but also said that one of their work isn't commendable?

Overall, I don't believe in repealing a resolution from 2009 unless you can back it up with a better commendation, whether you or another player makes it doesn't matter. Either this one gets repealed and replaced or it shouldn't get repealed at all. Simply just repealing an old resolution without a proper replacement just because the standards back then don't match today is picking low-hanging fruit. What if that sets a precedent that ten years later, a 2020-made commendation gets the target of a repeal because "it doesn't meet SC standards today" without a proper replacement? Therefore, still opposed.

[Not no one]

Opposed, SC #2 is not repealable.

why?

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Opposed, SC #2 is not repealable.

why?

If you’d bothered to read the thread you would have seen that it is repealable. Any passed SC resolution is repealable. It’s a matter of convincing the voters that it needs to be repealed, a task which the OP of this thread is unlikely to do for SC#2.

[KIDS Country]

why?

If you’d bothered to read the thread you would have seen that it is repealable. Any passed SC resolution is repealable. It’s a matter of convincing the voters that it needs to be repealed, a task which the OP of this thread is unlikely to do for SC#2.

I'm seeing two things going on:

you either support Kandarin getting a commendation, in which case it would follow logically that you would support Kandarin receiving a commendation longer than four sentences, OR
you oppose Kandarin getting a commendation, in which case it would follow logically that you would support this legislation anyways.

It appears to me that the majority of the people here support Kandarin getting a better-written commendation, but nobody can detail what Kandarin did that is specifically commendable, or would bother rising to the task of actually authoring a replacement, either because it's too difficult or because it's impossible.

If it's impossible, you default to opposing Kandarin getting a commendation, because evidently Kandarin hasn't done anything that can't be described in what appears to be the shortest piece of legislation still standing in the WA, or
If it's too difficult, then a four-sentence piece of legislation that could easily be construed as a joke proposal in 2021 is certainly not our best shot at it.

[Outer Sparta]

If you’d bothered to read the thread you would have seen that it is repealable. Any passed SC resolution is repealable. It’s a matter of convincing the voters that it needs to be repealed, a task which the OP of this thread is unlikely to do for SC#2.

I'm seeing two things going on:

you either support Kandarin getting a commendation, in which case it would follow logically that you would support Kandarin receiving a commendation longer than four sentences, OR
you oppose Kandarin getting a commendation, in which case it would follow logically that you would support this legislation anyways.

It appears to me that the majority of the people here support Kandarin getting a better-written commendation, but nobody can detail what Kandarin did that is specifically commendable, or would bother rising to the task of actually authoring a replacement, either because it's too difficult or because it's impossible.

If it's impossible, you default to opposing Kandarin getting a commendation, because evidently Kandarin hasn't done anything that can't be described in what appears to be the shortest piece of legislation still standing in the WA, or
If it's too difficult, then a four-sentence piece of legislation that could easily be construed as a joke proposal in 2021 is certainly not our best shot at it.

Are you calling BBD a hypocrite with this comment? Yes, there are people who think SC2 is fine as it is and doesn't need repealing or that it should be replaced with a better commendation if it were to be repealed. I personally believe the former, but am receptive to the latter if the repeal makes good enough arguments and that a replacement is immediately followed after.

[Westinor]

I'm seeing two things going on:

you either support Kandarin getting a commendation, in which case it would follow logically that you would support Kandarin receiving a commendation longer than four sentences, OR
you oppose Kandarin getting a commendation, in which case it would follow logically that you would support this legislation anyways.

It appears to me that the majority of the people here support Kandarin getting a better-written commendation, but nobody can detail what Kandarin did that is specifically commendable, or would bother rising to the task of actually authoring a replacement, either because it's too difficult or because it's impossible.

If it's impossible, you default to opposing Kandarin getting a commendation, because evidently Kandarin hasn't done anything that can't be described in what appears to be the shortest piece of legislation still standing in the WA, or
If it's too difficult, then a four-sentence piece of legislation that could easily be construed as a joke proposal in 2021 is certainly not our best shot at it.
Storefronts:

Your logic falls flat. One could support Kandarin getting a better commendation, but that doesn't mean we'd like to see a bad repeal make way for it. The optimal situation is that a good repeal and good case alongside a good replacement is proposed - you'll find that without this, you're unlikely to find support. The Security Council has been content with this resolution for over a decade now - and I think it's pretty content to let it sit longer if it means waiting for a better repeal to come along.

If you want this to work, it's your prerogative to gather research for a replacement commend of Kandarin, unless someone steps up. It wouldn't be too difficult nor would it be impossible - it's simply a question of who is willing to take the task upon themselves, and you don't get to pin the blame on others for not giving you the research you need to craft a replacement and proper repeal that would help pass this proposal. If you think Kandarin needs a better commendation, do the work yourself. Others aren't going to do it for you. If you're not willing to, you don't get to complain that no one else is doing it for you.

If you want to start on a commendation, or a repeal of a commendation that you intend to have a replacement ready for, know your target. Kandarin is a key figure in TRR history, so you may want to start by going on their forums or contacting those who may know about their work. Don't expect anyone to come to you.

[Outer Sparta]

It appears to me that the majority of the people here support Kandarin getting a better-written commendation, but nobody can detail what Kandarin did that is specifically commendable, or would bother rising to the task of actually authoring a replacement, either because it's too difficult or because it's impossible.

Your logic falls flat. One could support Kandarin getting a better commendation, but that doesn't mean we'd like to see a bad repeal make way for it. The optimal situation is that a good repeal and good case alongside a good replacement is proposed - you'll find that without this, you're unlikely to find support. The Security Council has been content with this resolution for over a decade now - and I think it's pretty content to let it sit longer if it means waiting for a better repeal to come along.

If you want this to work, it's your prerogative to gather research for a replacement commend of Kandarin, unless someone steps up. It wouldn't be too difficult nor would it be impossible - it's simply a question of who is willing to take the task upon themselves, and you don't get to pin the blame on others for not giving you the research you need to craft a replacement and proper repeal that would help pass this proposal. If you think Kandarin needs a better commendation, do the work yourself. Others aren't going to do it for you. If you're not willing to, you don't get to complain that no one else is doing it for you.

If you want to start on a commendation, or a repeal of a commendation that you intend to have a replacement ready for, know your target. Kandarin is a key figure in TRR history, so you may want to start by going on their forums or contacting those who may know about their work. Don't expect anyone to come to you.

Umm, I didn't write that, it's a quote from KIDS Country:

It appears to me that the majority of the people here support Kandarin getting a better-written commendation, but nobody can detail what Kandarin did that is specifically commendable, or would bother rising to the task of actually authoring a replacement, either because it's too difficult or because it's impossible.

Hopefully this is a comment addressed to them since they're the one that's the author of the draft.

[Westinor]

Your logic falls flat. One could support Kandarin getting a better commendation, but that doesn't mean we'd like to see a bad repeal make way for it. The optimal situation is that a good repeal and good case alongside a good replacement is proposed - you'll find that without this, you're unlikely to find support. The Security Council has been content with this resolution for over a decade now - and I think it's pretty content to let it sit longer if it means waiting for a better repeal to come along.

If you want this to work, it's your prerogative to gather research for a replacement commend of Kandarin, unless someone steps up. It wouldn't be too difficult nor would it be impossible - it's simply a question of who is willing to take the task upon themselves, and you don't get to pin the blame on others for not giving you the research you need to craft a replacement and proper repeal that would help pass this proposal. If you think Kandarin needs a better commendation, do the work yourself. Others aren't going to do it for you. If you're not willing to, you don't get to complain that no one else is doing it for you.

If you want to start on a commendation, or a repeal of a commendation that you intend to have a replacement ready for, know your target. Kandarin is a key figure in TRR history, so you may want to start by going on their forums or contacting those who may know about their work. Don't expect anyone to come to you.

Umm, I didn't write that, it's a quote from KIDS Country:

It appears to me that the majority of the people here support Kandarin getting a better-written commendation, but nobody can detail what Kandarin did that is specifically commendable, or would bother rising to the task of actually authoring a replacement, either because it's too difficult or because it's impossible.

Hopefully this is a comment addressed to them since they're the one that's the author of the draft.

Gah, misquote. My bad.

[Deadeye Jack]

I don't think this has been brought up in this thread yet, but the community that wrote and passed Commend Kandarin actually sorta took it as a point of pride the way the original Commend was written. If you look back at the original discussion thread, you will see comments that actually like the idea of someone being commended without really spelling out their deeds because that meant the nominee was so deserving that nothing much needed to be said and no convincing needed to be done. Of course, if you also read that thread you would see pretty loud opposition to doing things that way from people considered GA players. Ultimately, after all these years, it seems the Security Council came around to the opposition's viewpoint on how Commends should be written.

On the merits of Commend Kandarin and specifically his work in TRR though, I actually share Sedge's view in this thread. In my view, TRR was held down by his autocratic reign and didn't blossom into the TRR of today that everyone knows and loves until he stepped down and the region hammered out a constitutional, democratic way of doing things.