NationStates

Crowheim wrote:

KIDS Country wrote:With all due respect, you aren't even on the WA.

With all due respect, I have several dozen accounts, do you not think one of them is in the WA?

And both Comfed and Outer Sparta are correct.

Contemporaneously, but there have been edits. There is more than just a rules criticism.

One would think you'd use your WA account in a WA forum.

KIDS Country wrote:

Crowheim wrote:With all due respect, I have several dozen accounts, do you not think one of them is in the WA?

And both Comfed and Outer Sparta are correct.

Contemporaneously, but there have been edits. There is more than just a rules criticism.

One would think you'd use your WA account in a WA forum.

Because my WA account switches constantly, but this is the one I use for authorship and drafting?

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason to repeal SC # 2. It doesn't fit today's rules but it did when it was passed, so it is still legal. This is a badge hunt, plain and simple, and I have no support for it.

Unless you intend to replace kandarin's commend with a better one, then the idea of repealing the commendation of a nation that's achieved almost legendary status seems inappropriate. And for a nation now to propose a commendation of a nation that's been inactive for years would be laughable.
Let kandarin's achievements in ancient history be lauded by a resolution from ancient history.

This proposal hasn't a foot to stand on.

I would be willing to support this (once it's better written, etc.) if there was a replacement Commendation for Kandarin.

Praeceps wrote:I would be willing to support this (once it's better written, etc.) if there was a replacement Commendation for Kandarin.

Feet and Ankles wrote:Unless you intend to replace kandarin's commend with a better one, then the idea of repealing the commendation of a nation that's achieved almost legendary status seems inappropriate. And for a nation now to propose a commendation of a nation that's been inactive for years would be laughable.
Let kandarin's achievements in ancient history be lauded by a resolution from ancient history.

This proposal hasn't a foot to stand on.

Problem with this is it's a self-defeating loop. The current resolution does not actually stipulate any specific actions Kandarin did, and if I take your "legendary status" to be accurate, it most certainly falls short of being up-to-par. The only two things I get from reading this resolution are:

• Kandarin didn't kick people who disagreed with them, which should be the norm, and
• Kandarin helped people on the forums, which can be rewritten as "assisting less experienced nations in navigating the international landscape."

In any case, I would prefer someone who has, unlike what can be garnered from this resolution, the remotest of ideas regarding Kandarin's contributions to help me coauthor a replacement.

Crowheim wrote:

KIDS Country wrote:Contemporaneously, but there have been edits. There is more than just a rules criticism.

One would think you'd use your WA account in a WA forum.

Because my WA account switches constantly, but this is the one I use for authorship and drafting?

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason to repeal SC # 2. It doesn't fit today's rules but it did when it was passed, so it is still legal. This is a badge hunt, plain and simple, and I have no support for it.

That's less than half of the repeal criteria though! What about the other half, the ambiguousness, and the simple fact that much of what is claimed in SC2 is simply not commendable? Or, if the target was deserving of a commendation, how it does not edge on giving them the recognition they deserve?

KIDS Country wrote:

Praeceps wrote:I would be willing to support this (once it's better written, etc.) if there was a replacement Commendation for Kandarin.

Feet and Ankles wrote:Unless you intend to replace kandarin's commend with a better one, then the idea of repealing the commendation of a nation that's achieved almost legendary status seems inappropriate. And for a nation now to propose a commendation of a nation that's been inactive for years would be laughable.
Let kandarin's achievements in ancient history be lauded by a resolution from ancient history.

This proposal hasn't a foot to stand on.

Problem with this is it's a self-defeating loop. The current resolution does not actually stipulate any specific actions Kandarin did, and if I take your "legendary status" to be accurate, it most certainly falls short of being up-to-par. The only two things I get from reading this resolution are:

• Kandarin didn't kick people who disagreed with them, which should be the norm, and
• Kandarin helped people on the forums, which can be rewritten as "assisting less experienced nations in navigating the international landscape."

In any case, I would prefer someone who has, unlike what can be garnered from this resolution, the remotest of ideas regarding Kandarin's contributions to help me coauthor a replacement.

KIDS Country wrote:

Crowheim wrote:Because my WA account switches constantly, but this is the one I use for authorship and drafting?

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason to repeal SC # 2. It doesn't fit today's rules but it did when it was passed, so it is still legal. This is a badge hunt, plain and simple, and I have no support for it.

That's less than half of the repeal criteria though! What about the other half, the ambiguousness, and the simple fact that much of what is claimed in SC2 is simply not commendable? Or, if the target was deserving of a commendation, how it does not edge on giving them the recognition they deserve?

It worked and was the standard when it passed. If we repeal this we'll have to repeal countless other things by the standard we're setting. No support.

KIDS Country wrote:

Praeceps wrote:I would be willing to support this (once it's better written, etc.) if there was a replacement Commendation for Kandarin.

Feet and Ankles wrote:Unless you intend to replace kandarin's commend with a better one, then the idea of repealing the commendation of a nation that's achieved almost legendary status seems inappropriate. And for a nation now to propose a commendation of a nation that's been inactive for years would be laughable.
Let kandarin's achievements in ancient history be lauded by a resolution from ancient history.

This proposal hasn't a foot to stand on.

Problem with this is it's a self-defeating loop. The current resolution does not actually stipulate any specific actions Kandarin did, and if I take your "legendary status" to be accurate, it most certainly falls short of being up-to-par. The only two things I get from reading this resolution are:

• Kandarin didn't kick people who disagreed with them, which should be the norm, and
• Kandarin helped people on the forums, which can be rewritten as "assisting less experienced nations in navigating the international landscape."

In any case, I would prefer someone who has, unlike what can be garnered from this resolution, the remotest of ideas regarding Kandarin's contributions to help me coauthor a replacement.

Yes, it's a loop. Self-defeating? I'd say it reinforces my penultimate point.
What I'm trying to say, is that Kandarin's achievements belong to the same era as the commendation that recognised them; sure, it may be lacking, it may be against the more recent rules. But it's still a commendation, and there are plenty of other places for nations to hear of Kandarin's exploits. I'd prefer to see the SC's time taken up by commendations of newer players, not hauling out decade-old proposals for easy badges.
My "self-defeating loop", as you call it, was me describing to you how there's no satisfactory need or reason for this proposal.

I hope I have reached the bottom of the matter.

KIDS Country wrote:

Crowheim wrote:Because my WA account switches constantly, but this is the one I use for authorship and drafting?

Anyways, there is absolutely no reason to repeal SC # 2. It doesn't fit today's rules but it did when it was passed, so it is still legal. This is a badge hunt, plain and simple, and I have no support for it.

That's less than half of the repeal criteria though! What about the other half, the ambiguousness, and the simple fact that much of what is claimed in SC2 is simply not commendable? Or, if the target was deserving of a commendation, how it does not edge on giving them the recognition they deserve?

It simply met the standards of the time. Ten years later, are you going to go after resolutions like Commend Kuriko and repeal that because it doesn't meet the standards of what ten years later might look like?

Kandarin's commendation need not be repealed. When it was passed, the wider world knew why. They knew of Kandarin's accomplishments. Just leave it be and let the commendation of one of TRR's greatest citizens ever hold onto it. This proposed repeal serves no purpose.

People need to stop being so precious about Kandarin's Commendation. He's a legendary figure, sure, but the myth has become more than the man.

He was an active, influential and key figure in the early Rejected Realms, but you're looking at 2004-5 for that. He then presided over four years of stagnation and decline, his rule of the region stifling any attempts to develop a functioning, active community (I would know; I tried), and he then ended his time by handing over the Delegacy, and thus control of the region - which he saw as "his" to give - to an outsider.

That TRR became a successful region afterwards is despite that handover, because it was a long and bitter process to legitimise Naivetry's delegacy, and establish a functioning government system. TRR's success since it threw off the shackles of Kandarin shows that what was once thought remarkable - his ability to maintain "order, stability, and leadership" in TRR - was anything but. He was a millstone around the region's neck.

The quality of the resolution is dire too; understandable because the SC had only just been established, but a rubbish old proposal that fails to put together a strong case shouldn't be retained solely for its age.

Don't get me wrong, Kandarin was a great guy, highly likeable, and influential in many other areas. But his later TRR legacy was one of a failure to lead. His Commendation is long overdue being repealed and replaced with one that recognises his actual achievements.

On a separate note, I'll point out that these clauses:

However OBJECTING to the impropriety of SCR 2's personification of a nation,

OBJECTING to the impropriety of SCR 2's utilization of third-person pronouns,

...would require a mod ruling prior to submission as per Rule 3a. I'm posting here as a player, so that would be a different mod to myself.

On one hand, we can remove a terrible resolution. On the other hand, Mr Feet and Ankles has a point. We as the SC should aim to be recognising new people instead of just going through the same old proposals all the time and replacing them. At this point, I'm leaning in favour.

Going to need a replacement of the Commendation before this will pass, quality of the original and standards of the era of a previous proposal notwithstanding. This still stands as reading as an attempt at an easy badge hunt.

Xoriet wrote:Going to need a replacement of the Commendation before this will pass, quality of the original and standards of the era of a previous proposal notwithstanding. This still stands as reading as an attempt at an easy badge hunt.

I agree with this. I am not opposed in principle to repealing and replacing SC#2 (and I disagree with everyone who says that the SC should just focus on current players -- have you seen the current resolution at vote? The SC clearly doesn't have pressing business right now) but I would really like to see the replacement first.

Goobergunchia wrote:

Xoriet wrote:Going to need a replacement of the Commendation before this will pass, quality of the original and standards of the era of a previous proposal notwithstanding. This still stands as reading as an attempt at an easy badge hunt.

I agree with this. I am not opposed in principle to repealing and replacing SC#2 (and I disagree with everyone who says that the SC should just focus on current players -- have you seen the current resolution at vote? The SC clearly doesn't have pressing business right now) but I would really like to see the replacement first.

So far the author only justifies it by saying it's outdated but doesn't elaborate further on why Kandarin should get a better-written commendation.

I'm a bit lukewarm on a repeal of SC#2 but I think it could work if executed correctly. This includes a good replacement alongside a reasonable argument for repeal. You could go farther in this particular draft to argue that the current draft fails not only to reach the standards of modern commendations but also fails to properly recognize Kandarin's achievements, which (you could argue) should be recognized in a replacement. Of course, this would need a replacement first.

Outer Sparta wrote:So far the author only justifies it by saying it's outdated but doesn't elaborate further on why Kandarin should get a better-written commendation.

One issue is that it would be way easier to write the better commendation in, like, 2009 then now, given that most people who were around have long since retired. If I were writing "Commend Kandarin" today I would focus a lot more on his interregional efforts -- as Sedge pointed out, his legacy in TRR reads quite a bit different now than it did back when he was the only Delegate there of note. But some of that is going to run into Rule 2(b) issues because, say, I'm not sure how "hosted a number of informal gatherings of international and interregional leaders at a time when diplomatic activity was at a low ebb" reads if you weren't actually around for KandyChats.

I disagree strongly with the assertion that well-written repeals and replacements should not be done. Replacing poorly written and researched resolutions (by the standards nowadays) limits attempted repeals. More importantly, it helps to actually illustrate why a nominee was deserving of recognition and helps distinguish between resolutions that are "well-deserving nominee but not well-written resolution" and "not necessitating recognition of the SC and should be repealed resolutions".

Praeceps wrote:I disagree strongly with the assertion that well-written repeals and replacements should not be done. Replacing poorly written and researched resolutions (by the standards nowadays) limits attempted repeals. More importantly, it helps to actually illustrate why a nominee was deserving of recognition and helps distinguish between resolutions that are "well-deserving nominee but not well-written resolution" and "not necessitating recognition of the SC and should be repealed resolutions".

Basically this, yes. In this specific case, Kandarin absolutely did good things across the game during his time, and it would do a major disservice to him to repeal this on the grounds of insufficient merit/content by modern standards when he did so much good. Kandarin is definitely Commendable, so any attempts to repeal this without a meritorious replacement should be opposed.

I'm also definitely not a fan of older players should all be forgotten now because they aren't new and shiny additions to the community. There are still people who have earned their recognition after all these years who would be thrown out of consideration despite that because modern players would rather recognize their friends and colleagues than do research on older players they may not know.

Outer Sparta wrote:

Goobergunchia wrote:I agree with this. I am not opposed in principle to repealing and replacing SC#2 (and I disagree with everyone who says that the SC should just focus on current players -- have you seen the current resolution at vote? The SC clearly doesn't have pressing business right now) but I would really like to see the replacement first.

So far the author only justifies it by saying it's outdated but doesn't elaborate further on why Kandarin should get a better-written commendation.

Quite frankly, it's outdated and it insufficiently represents the target. Did Kandarin do anything more than pitch around on the forums / run TRR? If so, that cannot be extrapolated from the current resolution. If not, then the conduct mentioned probably doesn't deserve a commendation anyways. Since I'm only looking at the lack of information, and not the quality or details thereof, I would need someone to at least assist with the rewriting process.

KIDS Country wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:So far the author only justifies it by saying it's outdated but doesn't elaborate further on why Kandarin should get a better-written commendation.

Quite frankly, it's outdated and it insufficiently represents the target. Did Kandarin do anything more than pitch around on the forums / run TRR? If so, that cannot be extrapolated from the current resolution. If not, then the conduct mentioned probably doesn't deserve a commendation anyways. Since I'm only looking at the lack of information, and not the quality or details thereof, I would need someone to at least assist with the rewriting process.

By your logic, would you also go by repealing some commendation made in 2020 ten years later on the same grounds of being outdated?

KIDS Country wrote:

Outer Sparta wrote:So far the author only justifies it by saying it's outdated but doesn't elaborate further on why Kandarin should get a better-written commendation.

Quite frankly, it's outdated and it insufficiently represents the target. Did Kandarin do anything more than pitch around on the forums / run TRR? If so, that cannot be extrapolated from the current resolution. If not, then the conduct mentioned probably doesn't deserve a commendation anyways. Since I'm only looking at the lack of information, and not the quality or details thereof, I would need someone to at least assist with the rewriting process.

Opposed until you have a replacement then.

You can't just base your argument on the fact that it's illegal today. That's ex post facto and while their are some other arguments, there is nothing to argue why Kandarin doesn't deserve the commendation. So, unless you can come up with a replacement to the current commendation, I don't see why this proposal should even exist.

It's a bit unfair to tell KIDS Country to replace before he repeals. He's a 2017 nation, and probably has absolutely no idea what Kandarin has done that's commendable, because that was over a decade ago, and there's no readily accessible records.

He's got no reason to think Kandarin is commendable just because some old timers are telling him that he is, and it's not really his responsibility to give Kandarin the Commendation that others think he deserves. That's the responsibility of those who believe Kandarin warrants recognition.

Newer players are allowed to care about the quality of the resolutions on the SC's books, and they're not obliged to pass the replacements that they have no reason to believe in. I'd much rather see a replacemend Commend Kandarin from someone who cared about Kandarin's achievements.

I am sort of coming around to supporting a repeal regardless of whether there is a replacement, Sedgistan outlines my thoughts. If Kandarin was CTEd, I would probably take a different stance on this.