NATION

PASSWORD

[AT VOTE] Condemn Lily

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:38 am

Outer Sparta wrote:Many people in the SC forums agree that Lily deserves a condemnation for their work, but that resolution has to be well-written to fully merit their contributions.

Absolutely. I have no intention of authoring one given my own past (and possible future) connections to Lily, but anyone who wants to author one may borrow from my previous draft, which was written as a counterweight to the assortment of really bad resolutions floating around back then, and I'll chime in to clarify events I know about. I'm a touch out of the loop on more recent sneky raider activities, I'm afraid.
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Postby Warzone Codger » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:30 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Fahran wrote:That's a bit doubtful given how anti-condemnation the SC was the last time a condemnation was brought before it. Really, the only thing that's changed is that the condemnation is not as badly written as previous iterations, that the author has no known ties to Lily, and that Lily managed to raid The Embassy. Heck, if we'd known that last one mattered so much, we could have knocked it off a couple years back and then raided Christmas.

:p

I just feel too many people will just read the title and join the Lily condemnation bandwagon due to recent events and not even reading the poorly-written draft. I definitely could be underestimating the general public, but my concerns stem from how a poorly-written resolution could easily pass if there's a large enough bandwagon.
Fahran wrote:Oh, I didn't see that this had been submitted. As a veteran of Lily, I'm going to have to oppose this. It's less well-written then my own dubious attempt at a condemnation and actually gets a number of the facts wrong, specifically regarding Operation Supernova and the exclusion of previous trophies taken. I do think Lily deserves a condemnation, largely as a badge of honor for making a worthwhile contribution to NSGP, but this feels inadequate.

Many people in the SC forums agree that Lily deserves a condemnation for their work, but that resolution has to be well-written to fully merit their contributions.


Yes, but what I like about this is that it actually seems to be written by a victim/native who is outraged by Lily. Often, when the 'well written resolution' comes, we know the intention is by someone who is OOC impressed by Lily.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:33 pm

Warzone Codger wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:I just feel too many people will just read the title and join the Lily condemnation bandwagon due to recent events and not even reading the poorly-written draft. I definitely could be underestimating the general public, but my concerns stem from how a poorly-written resolution could easily pass if there's a large enough bandwagon.

Many people in the SC forums agree that Lily deserves a condemnation for their work, but that resolution has to be well-written to fully merit their contributions.


Yes, but what I like about this is that it actually seems to be written by a victim/native who is outraged by Lily. Often, when the 'well written resolution' comes, we know the intention is by someone who is OOC impressed by Lily.

Still doesn't change the fact that the resolution isn't well-written. I would prefer a well-written resolution regardless of whether or not the author is a victim of Lily or is someone who is impressed with them. Obviously Lily members or affiliates wouldn't count as that presents a conflict of interest, as Fahran stated earlier they won't take up authorship.
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Postby Fahran » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:10 pm

Warzone Codger wrote:Yes, but what I like about this is that it actually seems to be written by a victim/native who is outraged by Lily. Often, when the 'well written resolution' comes, we know the intention is by someone who is OOC impressed by Lily.

The last slew of resolutions was actually authored by victims outraged by Lily. The victims just had exceedingly poor grammar, had a shaky grasp on how the SC works, and were also styling themselves as raiders at the time they had their regions nerfed by Lily. I believe my own resolution was the only one authored by someone who supported (and was at one point a member of) Lily, and I largely wrote it because of the poor quality of the other resolutions.
Last edited by Fahran on Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:27 pm

Fahran wrote:
Warzone Codger wrote:Yes, but what I like about this is that it actually seems to be written by a victim/native who is outraged by Lily. Often, when the 'well written resolution' comes, we know the intention is by someone who is OOC impressed by Lily.

The last slew of resolutions was actually authored by victims outraged by Lily. The victims just had exceedingly poor grammar, had a shaky grasp on how the SC works, and were also styling themselves as raiders at the time they had their regions nerfed by Lily. I believe my own resolution was the only one authored by someone who supported (and was at one point a member of) Lily, and I largely wrote it because of the poor quality of the other resolutions.

You obviously have a good point with your previous draft on Lily. I just wish that there would be that one quality draft someone could think of that puts all the other lower quality proposals to bed.
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Postby Fahran » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:31 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:You obviously have a good point with your previous draft on Lily. I just wish that there would be that one quality draft someone could think of that puts all the other lower quality proposals to bed.

I'm beginning to believe that the quality of the draft doesn't really matter too much. There probably won't be enough will among SC heavy weights to get behind a condemnation until Lily does something a bit more conventional with their raiding - like toppling a feeder or destroying an old and well-liked region completely.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:32 pm

Fahran wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:You obviously have a good point with your previous draft on Lily. I just wish that there would be that one quality draft someone could think of that puts all the other lower quality proposals to bed.

I'm beginning to believe that the quality of the draft doesn't really matter too much. There probably won't be enough will among SC heavy weights to get behind a condemnation until Lily does something a bit more conventional with their raiding - like toppling a feeder or destroying an old and well-liked region completely.

That definitely is true. We'll see if Lily could ever pull of that kind of audacious raids.
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Postby The Python » Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:48 pm

Support - if people feel it's low quality it could always be replaced but I even feel that it's pretty good quality
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:58 pm

The Python wrote:Support - if people feel it's low quality it could always be replaced but I even feel that it's pretty good quality

The standard on Lily drafts is quite high to reflect their importance. I don't think this draft meets the standards for a condemnation.
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:03 pm

If this passes... Oh dear.
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Postby Fahran » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:06 pm

Greater Cesnica wrote:If this passes... Oh dear.

The SC has passed worse, but it is suboptimal. I'm mostly vexed by the details on Operation Supernova being wrong and a lot of naughty activities being left out. I wonder if we can resolution raid this. :^)
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Postby Team Lennox » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:25 am

Greater Cesnica wrote:If this passes... Oh dear.

I think this is a decent proposal but I will be voting against it anyways, the author has done some decent research on this
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Postby Fahran » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:40 am

Team Lennox wrote:I think this is a decent proposal but I will be voting against it anyways, the author has done some decent research on this

I mean... the author did kinda understate Operation Supernova.
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:57 am

Fahran wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:While Lily may well be worthy of a Condemnation,

I was under the impression that you flat-out opposed a condemnation for tag-raiding. I believe that was the objection the last time a condemnation popped up. Has your position changed since then? Or have the more recent raids, in your opinion, been deserving of a condemnation?

Sorry Fahran, I missed your post earlier.

I have no objection to tag raids being part of an overall measure of Condemnability. However, I think a raider unit has to be shown to have brought something else to the table. Certainly the raid on The Embassy goes toward that.

My objection to the present attempt is that it’s poorly researched, badly written and it’s sloppy. To be told three times to correct Herby to Hereby and then still submit it with the mistake. Well, it’s like me going to the gym. I want to but I can’t be arsed. That’s their attitude.
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Postby The Python » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:44 pm

https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1613802066 this proposal is currently more important, so it would probably be better to wait until this reaches quorum (because it is more important than a condemn badge)

EDIT: This has already reached quorum so never mind
Last edited by The Python on Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:52 pm

The Python wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=alcala-cordel_1613802066 this proposal is currently more important, so it would probably be better to wait until this reaches quorum (because it is more important than a condemn badge)

Highly doubt the author here would want to withdraw their submitted proposal. But they would be better off withdrawing and revising further.
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Postby The Python » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:01 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
The Python wrote:https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=alcala-cordel_1613802066 this proposal is currently more important, so it would probably be better to wait until this reaches quorum (because it is more important than a condemn badge)

Highly doubt the author here would want to withdraw their submitted proposal. But they would be better off withdrawing and revising further.

Yes apparently I just saw that it had reached quorum. It'll just take 3 more days so a password can be put on the Embassy but that's fine.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:32 pm

The Python wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:Highly doubt the author here would want to withdraw their submitted proposal. But they would be better off withdrawing and revising further.

Yes apparently I just saw that it had reached quorum. It'll just take 3 more days so a password can be put on the Embassy but that's fine.

It's also noteworthy the author hasn't come back to reply in the thread. Even before, they didn't really listen to the advice that's been giving by BBD and a few others.
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Postby Groot » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:00 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:To be told three times to correct Herby to Hereby and then still submit it with the mistake.

That was corrected in the submitted version.
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Postby Greater Cesnica » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:02 am

Groot wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:To be told three times to correct Herby to Hereby and then still submit it with the mistake.

That was corrected in the submitted version.

Not originally. It was originally submitted, then withdrawn, then resubmitted, then withdrawn again, and finally submitted.
Last edited by Greater Cesnica on Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Aredita » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:02 am

Groot wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:To be told three times to correct Herby to Hereby and then still submit it with the mistake.

That was corrected in the submitted version.

Indeed.


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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:45 am

Aredita wrote:
Groot wrote:That was corrected in the submitted version.

Indeed.

Greater Cesnica wrote:Not originally. It was originally submitted, then withdrawn, then resubmitted, then withdrawn again, and finally submitted.

Greater Cesnica has the truth of it.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:08 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Aredita wrote:Indeed.

Greater Cesnica wrote:Not originally. It was originally submitted, then withdrawn, then resubmitted, then withdrawn again, and finally submitted.

Greater Cesnica has the truth of it.

If you have to submit and withdraw and do it over and over again, then it's a sign the draft isn't fully-fleshed out at that point. Better to spend some time on it and get everything worked out before going for the submission.
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Postby Hateyu » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:50 am

for :)

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Postby Kingdom of Circle of Magi » Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:28 pm

Against, this is just so poorly written condemnation.
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