[PASSED] Liberate The Embassy

[Outer Sparta]

Ultimately decided to vote against. I just don't see enough value of The Embassy other than just an embassy collecting region to warrant a liberation.

The point of The Embassy isn't just collecting embassies. Put yourself in the shoes of someone in a very small region. You'd like to have a nice community of people to talk to on NS, but your region isn't very big and the people who are there aren't that active.

The point of The Embassy is to give that nation in that region that I just described an active RMB to chat in when their region's just isn't enough. NS needs regions like this to foster interregional communication.

How many native members did they have before the raid?

[Eshialand]

The point of The Embassy isn't just collecting embassies. Put yourself in the shoes of someone in a very small region. You'd like to have a nice community of people to talk to on NS, but your region isn't very big and the people who are there aren't that active.

The point of The Embassy is to give that nation in that region that I just described an active RMB to chat in when their region's just isn't enough. NS needs regions like this to foster interregional communication.

How many native members did they have before the raid?

It's not about who was in the region, it's about who used the region. A lot of nations used The Embassy to communicate with nations in other regions, and saying as that was the original goal of the region, I'd say it did its job pretty well and that it's worth saving.

[Outer Sparta]

How many native members did they have before the raid?

It's not about who was in the region, it's about who used the region. A lot of nations used The Embassy to communicate with nations in other regions, and saying as that was the original goal of the region, I'd say it did its job pretty well and that it's worth saving.

What do you think about earlier concerns that in the event of a liberation, raiders will use it to "tag raid" in future attempts?

[Refuge Isle]

It's not about who was in the region, it's about who used the region. A lot of nations used The Embassy to communicate with nations in other regions, and saying as that was the original goal of the region, I'd say it did its job pretty well and that it's worth saving.

What do you think about earlier concerns that in the event of a liberation, raiders will use it to "tag raid" in future attempts?

You may have missed where I addressed this earlier:

Having a persistent liberation would make for a persistent raid target, yes, but a long-term liberation is not necessary for The Embassy to do what it wants do. There is no reason for this liberation to remain after the raiding force is expelled.

A liberation is not required for the region to continue making embassy requests, they do not need an open border for such a thing. When the region is secured and pruned down to its original population, the resolution should be repealed.

[Lord Dominator]

May I presume the evidence for the possibility of region destruction consists of "well, they're raiders?"

[Outer Sparta]

What do you think about earlier concerns that in the event of a liberation, raiders will use it to "tag raid" in future attempts?

You may have missed where I addressed this earlier:

Having a persistent liberation would make for a persistent raid target, yes, but a long-term liberation is not necessary for The Embassy to do what it wants do. There is no reason for this liberation to remain after the raiding force is expelled.

A liberation is not required for the region to continue making embassy requests, they do not need an open border for such a thing. When the region is secured and pruned down to its original population, the resolution should be repealed.

They'll still have to contend with the founder being CTEd. Not to say that regions can't be secure without a founder, but it means that there's one less security measure in place.

[Refuge Isle]

May I presume the evidence for the possibility of region destruction consists of "well, they're raiders?"

You may have missed where I addressed this earlier (in the same post as the last, even):

Odd statement to make considering that SECFanatics is just that. The Embassy may have more love from the people who used their RMB to talk to one another, but that has no value in the world of raiding.

I might also note that it seems prudent to not rely on participants' alleged anti-griefing policies where it has already been indicated that those rules are flexible, or at least without consequence when they are broken.

[Lord Dominator]

May I presume the evidence for the possibility of region destruction consists of "well, they're raiders?"

You may have missed where I addressed this earlier (in the same post as the last, even):

Odd statement to make considering that SECFanatics is just that. The Embassy may have more love from the people who used their RMB to talk to one another, but that has no value in the world of raiding.

I might also note that it seems prudent to not rely on participants' alleged anti-griefing policies where it has already been indicated that those rules are flexible, or at least without consequence when they are broken.

I didn't miss that, but I also don't know of any plans to go for a refound - so I ask if HS has some knowledge that I'm missing, since that's only logical.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

original proposal is down, I had shitty writing and rushed it, should have used forums, and unfortunately, I rushed using telegram stamps on it.


supported

You were never going to stop the Embassy closures, game mechanics were against you there. However, even half a day drafting here would have helped remove the more egregious howlers from your text.

And yes, you would have got that help. Despite my dislike for the nominated region I would have advised you on improvements.

[Refuge Isle]

You may have missed where I addressed this earlier (in the same post as the last, even):

I might also note that it seems prudent to not rely on participants' alleged anti-griefing policies where it has already been indicated that those rules are flexible, or at least without consequence when they are broken.

I didn't miss that, but I also don't know of any plans to go for a refound - so I ask if HS has some knowledge that I'm missing, since that's only logical.

Presuming the goal of the raid is, indeed, to torch the embassies and depart, is there any harm that's caused by passing this resolution? It wouldn't interfere with the raid's objectives in that scenario.

Surely nothing prevents a refound without a liberation except promising that which as happened before be not repeated, and so I'm confused on what harm is caused by passing it anyway.

[Lord Dominator]

I didn't miss that, but I also don't know of any plans to go for a refound - so I ask if HS has some knowledge that I'm missing, since that's only logical.

Presuming the goal of the raid is, indeed, to torch the embassies and depart, is there any harm that's caused by passing this resolution? It wouldn't interfere with the raid's objectives in that scenario.

Surely nothing prevents a refound without a liberation except promising that which as happened before be not repeated, and so I'm confused on what harm is caused by passing it anyway.

I don't believe I've indicated that any opposition should be made on that point. Personally, I'm inclined to view it as fairly pointless (with a side of the extra work to repeal it later).

[A Goblinoid Merchant]

Just some input:

We used to be ~5 nations within the region behind a password but a pretty active interregional community.

Leppikania (who ceased a few days ago) was part of the original team around the founder. The Ambassadors Reception (who ceased a few days ago), me and another player (who ceased some time ago) were fans of the project and took over after the founder ceased. (Of course, The Ambassadors Reception did all the fantastic work, I was mainly just hanging out there). We had a few nations that The Ambassadors Reception allowed to enter in a Hell-style way. The last one of them left the region recently for unknown reason.

So I was the last lonely nation in the region. When I heard that the The Ambassadors Reception won't return anytime soon, I messed it up in an attempt to keep the region going. (I consider myself retired from NationStates but sometimes get back to it).

____

After the founder of The Embassy ceased the region was solely requesting embassies with regions that were tagged "new" (later excluding "fascist"). I don't plan to change that once the region is back to routine operation. Of course, I would try to reestablish the embassies closing right now etc.

The Ambassadors Reception published a news paper for the region which can be found in dispatches attached to the nation. (Please check it out). I think it is pretty high quality. (I have to admit that I currently don't know if we can continue this without him. Very difficult. Probably not).

Ya, The Embassy is mainly interesting for people who like to connect regions via embassies. It is for people with interregional mindset who want to look beyond their own big established regions, with a heart for new players that want to try starting their own (small) regions. Some bigger and active regions kept it as add-on RMB but many small and isolated regions utilized the offered shared RMB to socialize.
(I have an "all in game" stance, so I don't think discord or ... whatsapp can replace a RMB provided by the game itself).

Links to useful dispatches were shared. New region founders were told that they have to remove executive function from the WA delegate position when they got raided and called for help. These things.

So yes, the embassy is probably the most prominent, well-known, successful, hated embassy collector and as such part of NationStates history. There were ups and downs and maybe people back then considered it an annoying part of NS. I think that should be history by now? (Somewhen in the future, I would be interested to talk to people like Bhang Bhang Duc to learn why they dislike the region? Did you follow the regions development until now?)

I think, some people just don't like embassy collectors for their own reasons. IMHO The Embassy developed into a well received part of NationStates. It is an embassy collector with unique history and it has its own legacy and the legacy of a great player (The Ambassadors Reception) with a love for interregional projects.

A few people put a lot of time and effort into what it is today and there is/was much more community than in other big regions that I have seen getting a SC liberation (ie. because of a name resembling a RL country). So I don't see why this one should be damned to vanish. It had things to offer for old and new players.

Sorry for the sloppy writing, I'm rushed.
And thanks for the support.

(Probably I remain offline unless I become delegate).

Edit:

As I said, I don't think that I understand the complexity of a SC liberation fully. So don't mind me where I don't make sense.

[President Drumpf]

Everyone can see what 10000 Islands is doing here. Here’s a fact for you: HumanSanity and his region (10000 Islands) have not attempted to help the Embassy a single time. Simply look at the regional happenings and you can see that only five updaters led by the Python actually attempted to do anything about the raid. Why are they so concerned in the WA but refuse to do anything else?

Here’s my best guess at what is going to happen:
a) the liberation passes. This is 10000 Islands’ ideal outcome: the embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and 10000 Islands gets to make grand statements about how their proposal saved the poor, helpless natives. Those poor, helpless natives will be left stripped of a password and left to the mercy of tag raiders every update, but that is not 10KI’s concern: after all, they got the propaganda victory they wanted.
b) the liberation fails. The embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and the natives are left to rebuild their embassies. 10000 Islands is left disappointed, but the region is left at least somewhat secure.

I have no doubt that they will attempt to discredit my post based on “but raider!!” - I will simply point out that Europeia would never approve of us refounding the region, and even if we wanted to we wouldn’t do something our allies are not comfortable with. Of note is that HS himself pointed out that Europeia will not support region destruction. He then made a vague attempt at countering that by pointing out Liberty Nations Alliance - but of course he wasn’t being truthful on that. The fact is that Liberty Nations Alliance was left undamaged for the duration of the op. Afterwards, an RO received the delegacy and, after everyone including Europeia and the North Pacific had withdrawn and he was left with less than 20 endorsements, decided to use his influence. Afterwards, the Black Hawks returned to password the region on their own. Europeia at no point approved or was involved in the region’s destruction. To claim otherwise is misleading.

[Sedgistan]

Really?

Your comment provides absolutely nothing to the conversation and is exactly why people call the SC elitist and uninviting.

People make mistakes, and Sorianora apologized for doing so. Rubbing such mistakes in their face does nothing. I don't know why this comment frustrates me, but it does.

Yeah this is what makes the SC uninviting. The occasional odd comment from Vara about half-baked proposals in the occasional thread. That’s what it is.

Noah isn't wrong.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I have no doubt that they will attempt to discredit my post based on “but raider!!” - I will simply point out that Europeia would never approve of us refounding the region, and even if we wanted to we wouldn’t do something our allies are not comfortable with. Of note is that HS himself pointed out that Europeia will not support region destruction. He then made a vague attempt at countering that by pointing out Liberty Nations Alliance - but of course he wasn’t being truthful on that. The fact is that Liberty Nations Alliance was left undamaged for the duration of the op. Afterwards, an RO received the delegacy and, after everyone including Europeia and the North Pacific had withdrawn and he was left with less than 20 endorsements, decided to use his influence. Afterwards, the Black Hawks returned to password the region on their own. Europeia at no point approved or was involved in the region’s destruction. To claim otherwise is misleading.

Why am I not surprised that XKI lied about this?

[Virgolia]

a) the liberation passes. This is 10000 Islands’ ideal outcome: the embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and 10000 Islands gets to make grand statements about how their proposal saved the poor, helpless natives. Those poor, helpless natives will be left stripped of a password and left to the mercy of tag raiders every update, but that is not 10KI’s concern: after all, they got the propaganda victory they wanted.

When has XKI made grand statements about Liberations? Not saying they never did, I just can't think of one off the top of my mind.

[Greater Cesnica]

Really?

Your comment provides absolutely nothing to the conversation and is exactly why people call the SC elitist and uninviting.

People make mistakes, and Sorianora apologized for doing so. Rubbing such mistakes in their face does nothing. I don't know why this comment frustrates me, but it does.

Yeah this is what makes the SC uninviting. The occasional odd comment from Vara about half-baked proposals in the occasional thread. That’s what it is.

Wow, you really got him them with that ROFL.

[Sail Nation]

I am strongly supporting this resolution. The Embassy has effectively been one of my main regions, even though I have never been in the region for obvious reasons. While I have been less active on their RMB recently, it still saddens me that this special region will be either lost, or at least years of work will be undone in a matter of days. I helped save the region from being raided by defending it in this forum, and supporting The Ambassador's Reception's move to close all embassies with fascist regions. I have written numerous reviews for the region's TourAdvisor project.

And I don't want to get into a raider v defender debate here, but I do believe that The Embassy is no ordinary region. Unlike your run-of-the-mill UCR, which when raided, communities can be seriously damaged but a wider impact is small, The Embassy has been used as effectively a 'community RMB' where people from hundreds of regions talk about pretty much anything to each other.

So I am using my 13 votes in the WA (through my position as Loranian WA Delegate) to vote for this resolution, and I hope that many of my fellow delegates in regions big and small will join me. And while I do not partake in R/D gameplay, I will give any defender liberation attempt (once the password has been removed) my full moral support. I am also considering moving a non-WA puppet into the region once the password is gone, so that the natives may consider allowing me to help rebuild the region. However, if that is the case, please don't tell me the new password or give me border control authority, or anyone else for that matter (apart from if those such as The Ambassador's Reception come back).

[Marxist Germany]

b) the liberation fails. The embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and the natives are left to rebuild their embassies. 10000 Islands is left disappointed, but the region is left at least somewhat secure.

OOC: In what universe does this ever happen without a liberation?

[Xeknos]

I'm AGAINST this resolution, mostly because even the one regional native doesn't seem to particularly give a shit what happens to his region.

[Sail Nation]

b) the liberation fails. The embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and the natives are left to rebuild their embassies. 10000 Islands is left disappointed, but the region is left at least somewhat secure.

OOC: In what universe does this ever happen without a liberation?

Exactly, what if they change the password and don't tell anyone what it is?

The liberation can always be repealed anyway, once the raiders have left, and then the region can begin to rebuild. And anyway, a new native/defender delegate must be elected once the raiders are gone to give natives/those who want to rebuild positions with embassy authority and the one native (that I know of) the border control authority. Otherwise, rebuilding will be literally impossible. And if the password is changed and no regional officer is left, then even moving a second nation in to elect a WA delegate so that officers can be appointed would be impossible.

[Comfed]

b) the liberation fails. The embassies close, the raiders leave as they had planned to, and the natives are left to rebuild their embassies. 10000 Islands is left disappointed, but the region is left at least somewhat secure.

OOC: In what universe does this ever happen without a liberation?

Quite often. Many raids, especially ones where independent regions like Europeia, don’t end in trophy-making. What often happens and what happened with SECFanatics (to my knowledge) is that the occupation force leaves, the natives come back and are, to put it mildly, very rude to TBH, so they come back and close the region. I strongly suspect that if the raiders leave the remaining native will change the password.

[A Goblinoid Merchant]

I'm AGAINST this resolution, mostly because even the one regional native doesn't seem to particularly give a shit what happens to his region.

Man, do you suggest that I should go now and start insulting the raiders? Or should I add more unhappy or angry looking emoticons to my posts, or what?

I literally almost shit myself when I saw that I fooled myself.

Personally I would bet that this is just a tag raid and the raiders will pull out once the embassies are closed. Raiding can suck a lot but so far that seems all executed according to some good policies. (Check out which posts got suppressed mostly so far).

But since The Embassy seems to have also quite a few haters and since mine was the last nation and has only mediacor influence points, I believe the SC liberation helps to be on the safe side because my priority is that the region doesn't disappear.

Of course, the closing of all these embassies is sad. But I bet we can rebuild most of them before this pandemic is over.

So now some emotions for you. I can't find the one with the shit so you get this one

[Refuge Isle]

I have no doubt that they will attempt to discredit my post based on “but raider!!” - I will simply point out that Europeia would never approve of us refounding the region, and even if we wanted to we wouldn’t do something our allies are not comfortable with. Of note is that HS himself pointed out that Europeia will not support region destruction. He then made a vague attempt at countering that by pointing out Liberty Nations Alliance - but of course he wasn’t being truthful on that. The fact is that Liberty Nations Alliance was left undamaged for the duration of the op. Afterwards, an RO received the delegacy and, after everyone including Europeia and the North Pacific had withdrawn and he was left with less than 20 endorsements, decided to use his influence. Afterwards, the Black Hawks returned to password the region on their own. Europeia at no point approved or was involved in the region’s destruction. To claim otherwise is misleading.

Why am I not surprised that XKI lied about this?

I fail to see where the lie is. The fact of the matter is that LNA was destroyed despite Europeia and The North Pacific's involvement, and there were no political consequences following Scardino's decision to continue to pillage and plunder with the influence and regional permissions that those organisations handed him.

And that's rather the trouble with operations like this. If Frenchy says that it's not a refound, sure. I believe that Frenchy believes that, but such a statement does not account for all parties involved and what they may feel like doing in the spur of the moment. Most especially if, as Comfed so kindly points out, natives who are justifiably upset about the destruction do not respond with smiles and rainbows. For in that case, all previous bets are off, some splinter of the original party will return and wipe out what remains.

[Republica Guilleana]

(Irrelevant opinion)

Voting for