NationStates

This is silly.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:This is silly.

This pretty much sums up the proposal.

Yeah TNI haven't really done much recently.

Given how easy it was for the founder to be brought back last time, I'm absolutely dumbfounded on how you've not abandoned this idea yet.

Honeydewistania wrote:Given how easy it was for the founder to be brought back last time, I'm absolutely dumbfounded on how you've not abandoned this idea yet.

Because the founder won't stay here, and leaves the region vulnerable. TNI deserves to get what it dished out for so many years.

Opposed at the moment. However, we will watch your proposal with great interest.

Lenlyvit wrote:

Honeydewistania wrote:Given how easy it was for the founder to be brought back last time, I'm absolutely dumbfounded on how you've not abandoned this idea yet.

Because the founder won't stay here, and leaves the region vulnerable. TNI deserves to get what it dished out for so many years.

Is it Onder, specifically, who deserves it?

Unlike condemn Osiris, this joke proposal is actually funny.

Against seems like a waste of SC time

Lenly, I feel like we are always in opposition to each other, which is a shame. I don't think this is warranted, reading back to the January debate, it seems like and I apologize for my colorful language here "pissin' on an old enemy's grave." Only thing is does is make you look bad when the Grave keepers catches you and the whole town finds out.

TNI is inactive. It hasn't done anything in a long time. If you want to do something about all those nations they attacked why not write a condemn for Onder, rather than liberating a region only they care about. Do something relevant.

Like I fully support and appreciate you candor on at least what I perceive is you reasoning, which is spite, and I'm always down to be spiteful, but you can do better than liberating a long dead region.

If this is being seriously floated again, allow me to state my disapproval.

It isn't morally or ideologically consistent for me to say that I'm against regions getting invaded and then turn around and say that it's justified here. Not because there's an argument to be had on regional sovereignty, but because the type of justice that you're floating is one based around revenge and retaliation. The classic "drink of your own medicine". That sort of Hammurabi-branded thinking has no productive value. I won't abide malicious region destruction, regardless of what the gameplay alignment of the natives are.

Ideology aside, I feel you're looking at this region from a misguided frame of reference. You may, for example, value THTHI. You may have strong feelings if it were refounded, but I wouldn't put that projection onto raiding orgs. It isn't as though you will stop or even damage raiding by deleting an old forgotten region. Even if TNI were active, the prudent move would simply be to move to another region and continue raiding per usual. In the end, nothing is accomplished except to demonstrate that your values are entirely pliable.

At least let neutral onlookers be able to discern the difference between the two factions.

Nova Vandalia wrote:Lenly, I feel like we are always in opposition to each other, which is a shame. I don't think this is warranted, reading back to the January debate, it seems like and I apologize for my colorful language here "pissin' on an old enemy's grave." Only thing is does is make you look bad when the Grave keepers catches you and the whole town finds out.

TNI is inactive. It hasn't done anything in a long time. If you want to do something about all those nations they attacked why not write a condemn for Onder, rather than liberating a region only they care about. Do something relevant.

Like I fully support and appreciate you candor on at least what I perceive is you reasoning, which is spite, and I'm always down to be spiteful, but you can do better than liberating a long dead region.

Well, I'm a moralist defender and you're a raider so the likelihood of us seeing eye to eye on any SC proposal besides an RP C&C seems unlikely tbh. Anyways, condemning Onder would not have the same affect by a long shot.

Refuge Isle wrote:If this is being seriously floated again, allow me to state my disapproval.

It isn't morally or ideologically consistent for me to say that I'm against regions getting invaded and then turn around and say that it's justified here. Not because there's an argument to be had on regional sovereignty, but because the type of justice that you're floating is one based around revenge and retaliation. The classic "drink of your own medicine". That sort of Hammurabi-branded thinking has no productive value. I won't abide malicious region destruction, regardless of what the gameplay alignment of the natives are.

Ideology aside, I feel you're looking at this region from a misguided frame of reference. You may, for example, value THTHI. You may have strong feelings if it were refounded, but I wouldn't put that projection onto raiding orgs. It isn't as though you will stop or even damage raiding by deleting an old forgotten region. Even if TNI were active, the prudent move would simply be to move to another region and continue raiding per usual. In the end, nothing is accomplished except to demonstrate that your values are entirely pliable.

At least let neutral onlookers be able to discern the difference between the two factions.

Duly noted Refuge. My values are the same as they've always been, and revenge is a dish best served cold. It doesn't matter is TNI is dead, those they've wronged are still around. I'll probably submit this soon with a possibility of some minor tweaks.

Lenlyvit wrote:Duly noted Refuge. My values are the same as they've always been, and revenge is a dish best served cold. It doesn't matter is TNI is dead, those they've wronged are still around. I'll probably submit this soon with a possibility of some minor tweaks.

You may do as you please, of course, but your strategy is still off.

The actions of raiders, as an org, aim to create buzz. To be active, to be relevant. To force their name into people's mouths and be talked about, to be considered formidable and noteworthy. The consequence for organisations that fail, retire, or disintegrate should then be the inevitability of the entropy they spent so long pushing back on. That is to say, our goal for them should be irrelevance and being forgotten. This is the direct opposite of create another permanent record of their exploits.

Take note that the founder revived ten hours ago.

This effort is doomed due to poor execution and the founder's inevitable return and submitting this would be a mistake.

1. The founder will come back inevitably. Locking down TNI, even if the Liberation were in place and full TGW/TITO/maybe another org's pilers were deployed, it would take multiple weeks to remove the few remaining TNI nations that have gathered ample influence over time. The founder will come back in that time. If I were whoever in TNI has the founder's RL contact info, I'd let defenders pile it for a week or two before bringing the founder back. Ultimately, you're looking at a whole lot of energy and resource expenditure for nothing when defender pilers have more important work to be doing.

2. I see no plausible path for this to pass. The only major Delegates that will vote for this are XKI, maybe TSP, and maybe maybe TRR. This is amplified by the fact that in your ideologically blinded worldview that "the imperialist sphere is dead", you deny the imperialist sphere's foreign affairs connections and alliances are alive and well. These issues are amplified by the fact that the way you have gone about advocating for the proposal in this thread is distracted and lacking polish, your justifications changing throughout the thread, and thus you lose the support of the ideological center even separately from running head first into the powerful foreign affairs connections of TNI and its friends in the still alive Imperialist sphere. In some cases, these issues can be overcome by good writing or good optics, but this is an ideological issue rather than a substantive one.

3. If we're going to counter-invade raiders, we need to develop better justifications and get better at talking about them. The model of justice you propose is based in pure vengeance with no end goal. Vengeance for natives, vengeance for the FRA, and the idea that TNI "deserves it" because they "dished it out". Why is that productive? Why is that useful? You state that it's a "dish best served cold", but why? To what end? The idea this is justice for those TNI has hurt seems odd to me. Those TNI has harmed deserve protection and fortification but not necessarily vengeance.

I think counter-invasions can perhaps be justified through a more forward-looking set of arguments than the ones you've presented. Many of the ordinary possible justifications for why a counter-invasion might stop future invasions are off the table: TNI doesn't have updaters or pilers that might get disrupted or scattered as a result of the counter-invasion. TNI is not used to forward or create Imperialist propaganda or messaging anymore. Perhaps an argument could be made that its continued existence serves Imperialist propaganda and that a counter-invasion would build energy and activity within defending. You could even justify this in a very "we get to retaliate against those who harmed us" sense rather than a "how dare did TNI do evil!" sense. But you haven't advanced these arguments. In your failure to connect counter-invasion to any kind of meaningful end goal, or articulate a broader theory of why retribution-based or vengeful justice is a good thing in this or any other context, you have failed to present a compelling case for why counter-invasions are justified.

As a result of this failure to explain the underlying purpose of what you're attempting to do, as well as your shifting justifications throughout this thread, the fact you reassert your position without engaging with anyone else's arguments, and the way you are dismissing any criticism of the ideas you're presenting by simply saying you don't agree with them, you don't have any shot at passing this and, by attempting to force it to a vote, you are risking the long-term viability of the strategy of counter-invasion which you purport to believe in. In fact, by advancing this proposal again and again you further raider propaganda efforts while accomplishing nothing of consequence.

I would not submit this, and if you do, I would not be shocked when it loses at vote pretty overwhelmingly.

Not every resolution needs to have a strategy in order to pass, HumanSanity. You, as well as Refuge, are vastly underestimating the natives that have been violated over the years by both raider and imperialist forces. That, coupled with the remnants of the FRA spread out over NS, is a component in any vote. Your objections and reasonings are noted, and I value your opinions, but I honestly do not care if it fails or not.

Lenlyvit wrote:Not every resolution needs to have a strategy in order to pass, HumanSanity. You, as well as Refuge, are vastly underestimating the natives that have been violated over the years by both raider and imperialist forces. That, coupled with the remnants of the FRA spread out over NS, is a component in any vote. Your objections and reasonings are noted, and I value your opinions, but I honestly do not care if it fails or not.

So this is about revenge? Highly questionable motive from a TITO Knight. Aren't you supposed to stand for honor and virtue and doing only what is noble?

Wayneactia wrote:

Lenlyvit wrote:Not every resolution needs to have a strategy in order to pass, HumanSanity. You, as well as Refuge, are vastly underestimating the natives that have been violated over the years by both raider and imperialist forces. That, coupled with the remnants of the FRA spread out over NS, is a component in any vote. Your objections and reasonings are noted, and I value your opinions, but I honestly do not care if it fails or not.

So this is about revenge? Highly questionable motive from a TITO Knight. Aren't you supposed to stand for honor and virtue and doing only what is noble?

You do realize I left XKI and TITO in January, right?

Lenlyvit wrote:revenge is a dish best served cold.

Yes, congratulations to the defenders supporting this. I can hardly get myself to be angry at anything recent, let alone get angry at an enemy I never faced in the name of an organisation I never served in. But I suppose defenders couldn't beat TNI when it was alive, so five years after it died you try to drag up the ghost of the region to beat it.

Perhaps you should try a different ingredient than salt in your dishes.

It doesn't matter is TNI is dead, those they've wronged are still around.

But you sure as hell aren't one of them, and I haven't seen them around in the thread at all. As is common with defenders, you seem very eager to crusade on the behalf of people who aren't.

The Security Council,

Naming the target of this resolution to remove a password to be The New Inquisition (hereafter known as TNI), a region which had no regard for the regional sovereignty of others during the years it was active;

At least an honest line to start, though your whining about regional sovereignty while trying to take away the password of a sovereign region is amusing.

Believing that when TNI violated the sovereignty of other regions like previously said before they gave up any rights they had to protect their regional borders, borders which are now vulnerable after the regions founder ceased to exist more than two years ago;

"like previously said before" is an error, I believe. Their borders are perfectly safe with the password in place, and the founder is alive, but sure.

Listing two kinds of the various violations of regional sovereignty to be:

• The support and execution of multiple Coup Détat's within the Feeder and Sinker regions of The East Pacific (2008 Empire Coup), Osiris (2013 Gatesville coup), and The Rejected Realms (2012 UIAF coup),
  
• The attack on innocent communities such as Canada, Scotland, Valhalla, Australia, and Middle Earth by TNI's armed forces for no stated purpose.

My favourite, seeing supposed "defenders" make a difference once more between the GCRs and the UCRs despite claiming they do not. The Rejected Realms was not a coup and it was not carried out by the UIAF, as any basic research would have pointed out. Furthermore, the UIAF turned against Gatesville and forced them to negotiate an end to the coup. All of this is documented in the condemnation.

Arguing once again that the listed attacks, although perpetrated many years ago at this point, are more than enough reason to deny TNI the ability to protect their region in their time of vulnerability;

"We weren't wronged by TNI, and hardly anyone still around was either, but we can still be angry in their stead."

Stating that the mission of this body is to "spread peace and goodwill, via force if necessary", and that this resolution will do just that by spreading goodwill through allowing the forces of the defender world to strike back at a region that once crushed innocent communities under its heels;

That seems neither very peaceful nor to be spreading much goodwill, given even some defenders seem to be opposing it.

Made some minor edits. Let me know your feedback, otherwise I'll probably submit later today.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:

Lenlyvit wrote:revenge is a dish best served cold.

Yes, congratulations to the defenders supporting this. I can hardly get myself to be angry at anything recent, let alone get angry at an enemy I never faced in the name of an organisation I never served in. But I suppose defenders couldn't beat TNI when it was alive, so five years after it died you try to drag up the ghost of the region to beat it.

Perhaps you should try a different ingredient than salt in your dishes.

It doesn't matter is TNI is dead, those they've wronged are still around.

But you sure as hell aren't one of them, and I haven't seen them around in the thread at all. As is common with defenders, you seem very eager to crusade on the behalf of people who aren't.

The Security Council,

Naming the target of this resolution to remove a password to be The New Inquisition (hereafter known as TNI), a region which had no regard for the regional sovereignty of others during the years it was active;

At least an honest line to start, though your whining about regional sovereignty while trying to take away the password of a sovereign region is amusing.

Believing that when TNI violated the sovereignty of other regions like previously said before they gave up any rights they had to protect their regional borders, borders which are now vulnerable after the regions founder ceased to exist more than two years ago;

"like previously said before" is an error, I believe. Their borders are perfectly safe with the password in place, and the founder is alive, but sure.

Listing two kinds of the various violations of regional sovereignty to be:

• The support and execution of multiple Coup Détat's within the Feeder and Sinker regions of The East Pacific (2008 Empire Coup), Osiris (2013 Gatesville coup), and The Rejected Realms (2012 UIAF coup),
  
• The attack on innocent communities such as Canada, Scotland, Valhalla, Australia, and Middle Earth by TNI's armed forces for no stated purpose.

My favourite, seeing supposed "defenders" make a difference once more between the GCRs and the UCRs despite claiming they do not. The Rejected Realms was not a coup and it was not carried out by the UIAF, as any basic research would have pointed out. Furthermore, the UIAF turned against Gatesville and forced them to negotiate an end to the coup. All of this is documented in the condemnation.

Arguing once again that the listed attacks, although perpetrated many years ago at this point, are more than enough reason to deny TNI the ability to protect their region in their time of vulnerability;

"We weren't wronged by TNI, and hardly anyone still around was either, but we can still be angry in their stead."

Stating that the mission of this body is to "spread peace and goodwill, via force if necessary", and that this resolution will do just that by spreading goodwill through allowing the forces of the defender world to strike back at a region that once crushed innocent communities under its heels;

That seems neither very peaceful nor to be spreading much goodwill, given even some defenders seem to be opposing it.

Not everyone on every side is going to go along with others in their sphere, that's a well-known fact. And it's also a well-known fact that some defenders are more than willing to strike back at raiders and imperialists on behalf of native communities.

I do also wonder, what’s the point? Seriously, TNI has 10 nations in it. Two of which are Onder and NES. So who are you getting revenge on. All this work to get “revenge” on...10 people?

If you’re going to submit please correct this:

The support and execution of multiple Coup Détat's within the Feeder and Sinker regions of The East Pacific (2008 Empire Coup), Osiris (2013 Gatesville coup), and The Rejected Realms (2012 UIAF coup),

Should be ”multiple coups d’etat”.

Against if this does reach a vote.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:

It doesn't matter is TNI is dead, those they've wronged are still around.

But you sure as hell aren't one of them, and I haven't seen them around in the thread at all. As is common with defenders, you seem very eager to crusade on the behalf of people who aren't.

While I agree with much of your criticism of this proposal, as documented in my above post, I am putting this opposition so clearly on the record because I don't want Len's haphazard execution of this inevitably doomed proposal to be used as a propaganda point for raiders more generally and an opportunity for them to distort messaging about defending and its purpose.

Defending is about providing support and defense for those who have difficulty securing it on their own. Defending is about the fundamental idea that nations should have the ability to communicate, engage, and build in whatever manner they choose, regardless of if that manner is something that others find good or valid or respectable (barring those who cause proactive harm to the world around them by doing so--e.g. fascists). To the extent defenders are perceived as "crusad[ing] on behalf of people who aren't [around]", this generally occurs in the context of Liberation proposals, where defenders are the ones who have built up the institutional capacity and resources to argue on behalf of these common ideals. In this kind of context, and as defenders advance their general rhetorical talking points, defenders aren't arguing for vengeance, rather they're arguing for the basic right of self defense for native communities, in line with native's wishes through constant communication and outreach. Raider arguments to the contrary are based in a willful effort to distort information and communications despite the best effort of defenders to make private conversations transparent and perform their roles as honest intermediaries between natives and the more established GP international community that ultimately holds the fate of these regions in its hands.

There is a distinction between speaking for those who have not spoken that they should have the basic right to exist in the manner of their choosing and attempting to speak for those who have not spoken that they have the right to endless vengeance. The burden of proof is far higher, for starters. But more significantly, while the right to self determination of a region is intrinsic to the region's existence because it is a defensive right, the right to vengeance has a far higher threshold because it's an offensive right. One must present a compelling theoretical argument for why that theory of how vengeance operates is justified and compelling evidence the aggrieved parties want that vengeance.

Len hasn't done that, which is why your generic "do the natives ever speak?" talking point applies only to this proposal for an offensive Liberation and not to ordinary proposals for a defensive Liberation.

I love all the people commenting about “what’s the point, TNI is dead” — Onder made a point of colonizing and destroying small, inactive regions for years and justifying his behaviour based on their inactivity. His creed was you had a right to exert sovereignty over the weak and the defenseless, because they were weak and defenseless.

Unibot III wrote:I love all the people commenting about “what’s the point, TNI is dead” — Onder made a point of colonizing and destroying small, inactive regions for years and justifying his behaviour based on their inactivity. His creed was you had a right to exert sovereignty over the weak and the defenseless, because they were weak and defenseless.

The political and ideological justifications for TNI's military operations were not primarily related to the inactivity or defencelessness of the targets. I rejected and continue to reject the application of universal moralistic standards to limit the prerogative of sovereign regions to exercise military power, but the decision to invade any given target stemmed from, and was justified by, the benefits accrued to us as a result, not the condition of the target involved.

Howdy, here to offer my totally unsolicited and probably equally unwanted opinion!

So, I'm not really a huge fan of the imperialists, but just as a spectator watching from home, wow am I sick of defenders. So personally I think the most fun strategy would be to go ahead and let the Founder CTE again, let this happen, let the defenders show what hypocrites they are (again) for invading The New Inquisition, let them sit there for a good long time to clear out almost the entire remaining native population, and then bring back the Founder. After that, as a consolation prize for them, why not reboot TNI and restore it to the force it once was? Then maybe they'll wish they had let TNI sleep, or maybe they actually would like to see it so they'll have better competition for their 50+ minor update liberators. Either way, it's bound to be more entertaining than the imperialists devoting their time and energy reminding us Balder exists through another tit-for-tat with Osiris over... whatever that last thing was, I can't even remember now.

TL;DR: I think this proposal is a golden opportunity to make defenders wish they hadn't and actually spur some gameplay activity that is actually interesting, so why not seize the moment? Alternatively, don't wait and just reboot TNI now, and thank Lenlyvit for giving you the kickstart you needed. That'd work too.

As to the proposal itself, it's ridiculous, but maybe you can pass it off as just a joke at the eleventh hour. Seems like a strategy that's worked lately.