[PASSED] Repeal "Commend the Western Isles"

[Honeydewistania]

Maybe if we stopped passing shit, we wouldn't have to take back these commendations. Just a suggestion.

[Comfed]

The SC is about writing quality resolutions. Generally when the bad ones get repealed they are replaced with something better. If I write a commend for, say, Amerion and it doesn’t talk about his achievements in defending, Lazarus or TSP then what kind of an award is it? The SC has always been about good writing and to suggest we get rid of that is ridiculous.

Right, the SC's writing community is about writing quality resolutions. Not the actual SC body, most people couldn't give a darn that's why stuff like this commend gets passed in the first place. SC writers are few and far between, good writers even truer. It's a pretty darn exclusionary bunch yet one that gets to pass judgment on every other aspect of the game, whether that part of the game wants it to or not. Sometimes it's a good thing like when we all join together to get rid of Fascist strongholds, but when it comes to handing out awards it kind of shit, and pretending like it isn't mean you've just been lucky enough to not be on the shit side of it. Again most organizations don't hand awards and take them back willy nilly because the award had a dent in it.

Correct, but the SC is not an awards show. And is not RL.

I mean genuinely should we repeal St.Abby's liberate because it's not well written? No.

Well, liberations are different. They have material consequences.

Should we repeal XKI's commend because it old and isn't up to modern snuff, no.
Should we go back and repeal every single one that before the "legal" check were put into place referenced NS or outside sources, No.

That would violate SC rules, so no.

Let the people have their awards gosh dang it. XD

They do keep the awards. They just get better. This is my point.

People keep saying it's just part of the game and that's my bloody point, a game where we make the rules and we've ruled that we can smash your sand castle if it ain't pretty enough. We can choose to be more lenient and let other folks feel awarded, instead of tossing arbitrary crap on the fire like and this a hyperbolic example "Must play for at least 3 years, authored either 5 WA resolutions or 3 issues, participated in R/D, has held at least 5 positions in various regions." because our current measure of "game changing" as a minimum is the ridiculous thing here.

What? We pass RP resolutions. We pass issues resolutions. We even pass resolutions for trading cards. There is no “arbitrary crap” and besides the lower our standards the lower the value of a C/C.

For one thing, OOC stuff says OOC, and does not belong in the Security Council.

The change to make C/C completely IC was a terrible decision and it absolutely did not used to be that way. It leaves out such a large part of the community, worthy of praise and left the negative connation of the old OOC condemns stuck to it. I've been playing this game for close to 8 + years on various accounts and this was genuinely one of the worst decisions.

There is a very important barrier between IC events and OOC events. People can be praised for OOC things by OOC institutions, which the SC is not and you ignore this at your peril.

Have one’s C/C repealed and then replaced isn’t a punishment, it is merely making one’s C/C better.

Replaced yeah, but that doesn't always happen as a matter of fact recently it's happening less and less. Wintony, Mark, this one potentially.
Are all recent repeals based on the writing that offered no replacement at all. Two's a coincidence, three is a bloody pattern and that's what we're headed towards.

Actually, that was because a lot of folks didn’t think that the nominee deserved it.

If placements where being prompted and actually done, I probably wouldn't be so up in arms. I'd still be critical of a few things, but they're not being put forward.

What do you mean by more flavourful/personal anyways?

I feel like some of the best SC and GA proposals are the tongue in cheek ones, but lately it's all lists and no personality.

I agree with you on that - laundry list proposals should burn.

[Nova Vandalia]

Correct, but the SC is not an awards show. And is not RL.

No it's not it's so far removed that I think we need to take an honest look and re-evaluate it, is what I'm suggesting to think that the SC system is perfect is perfectly fine and can't use any criticism or change is ridiculous.

Well, liberations are different. They have material consequences.

I agree that they're different but as you all have pointed out these are "SC" standards. That We choose to apply, and we have the choice to apply it differently like we do to Liberations.

They do keep the awards. They just get better. This is my point.

Except they don't.

Actually, that was because a lot of folks didn’t think that the nominee deserved it.

Both Marks, and Wintony's were based on the quality of the writing not on the lack of merits of the individuals. So according to you they should have, or the repeals should have been written based on their perceived lack of commendable attributes correct? Or does the actually resolution all of a sudden not matter?

What? We pass RP resolutions. We pass issues resolutions. We even pass resolutions for trading cards. There is no “arbitrary crap” and besides the lower our standards the lower the value of a C/C.

I said I was being hyperbolic but my point being is that we do lets those, and yet required a much higher standard for GP compared to those areas, which is my issue with it.

There is a very important barrier between IC events and OOC events. People can be praised for OOC things by OOC institutions, which the SC is not and you ignore this at your peril.

I'm saying it used to be and it was better back then.

Aand "at your peril" ...really. This is the over serious stuff I'm talking about, and frankly something I surprised you went too.

I agree with you on that - laundry list proposals should burn.

Full agreement here. ^-^ Glad we got at least somewhere my friend.

I mean I'm not saying like the SC is wrong every time, but for fucks sake we need to slow down and re-evaluate it, and our standards, and figure out if we're being overly pendatic, and overly serious. In the grand scheme of thing TWI having a commend doesn't matter. I'm still for the repeal of it, I'm just not sure that it's fair to write a resolution based on the "writing of the commend" and then to turn around and say it's ok to vote for the repeal because they're not commendable and ignore actual resolution. When asking the same when it comes to giving the commends is a different standard.

[Makdon]

Right, the SC's writing community is about writing quality resolutions. Not the actual SC body, most people couldn't give a darn that's why stuff like this commend gets passed in the first place. SC writers are few and far between, good writers even truer. It's a pretty darn exclusionary bunch yet one that gets to pass judgment on every other aspect of the game, whether that part of the game wants it to or not. Sometimes it's a good thing like when we all join together to get rid of Fascist strongholds, but when it comes to handing out awards it kind of shit, and pretending like it isn't mean you've just been lucky enough to not be on the shit side of it. Again most organizations don't hand awards and take them back willy nilly because the award had a dent in it.

You can complain all you like about how exclusionary the SC is, but no one's excluding you. You, or anyone else, are welcome to try your hand at writing. Yet instead you complain about how you would be excluded if you did try. Be the change you wish to see, or shut up.

I mean genuinely should we repeal St.Abby's liberate because it's not well written? No.
Should we repeal XKI's commend because it old and isn't up to modern snuff, no.
Should we go back and repeal every single one that before the "legal" check were put into place referenced NS or outside sources, No.

None of these examples are like commend halo or commend TWI. Liberations are functional. There's quite a bit of of a debate about whether old proposals should be updated in quality. Repealing things for being rule breaking is illegal. Those are the reasons those won't be repealed, none of which apply to commend halo or commend TWI.

Let the people have their awards gosh dang it. XD

People keep saying it's just part of the game and that's my bloody point, a game where we make the rules and we've ruled that we can smash your sand castle if it ain't pretty enough. We can choose to be more lenient and let other folks feel awarded, instead of tossing arbitrary crap on the fire like and this a hyperbolic example "Must play for at least 3 years, authored either 5 WA resolutions or 3 issues, participated in R/D, has held at least 5 positions in various regions." because our current measure of "game changing" as a minimum is the ridiculous thing here.

I love this, because you're blaming the "SC community" for having arbitrary standards, and do so by pulling arbitrary standards out of your ass. Now, while the things you're citing are obviously bs, there is some truth here. The SC does have standards. Would you rather C&Cs are handed out willy nilly, with no consistent quality expectations?

The change to make C/C completely IC was a terrible decision and it absolutely did not used to be that way. It leaves out such a large part of the community, worthy of praise and left the negative connation of the old OOC condemns stuck to it. I've been playing this game for close to 8 + years on various accounts and this was genuinely one of the worst decisions.

What? In my mind, being IC not OOC is an obvious choice. The SC is not the place to recognize OOC problems, like fascism, homophobia, or sexual predation, and I think that should be obvious. And OOC good actions can almost always be written in an IC way. IC vs OOC is the wrong tree to be barking up.

Replaced yeah, but that doesn't always happen as a matter of fact recently it's happening less and less. Wintony, Mark, this one potentially.
Are all recent repeals based on the writing that offered no replacement at all. Two's a coincidence, three is a bloody pattern and that's what we're headed towards.

If placements where being prompted and actually done, I probably wouldn't be so up in arms. I'd still be critical of a few things, but they're not being put forward.

Stop citing repeal commend wintony as an example of a repeal based off of writing quality. It wasn't at all. The entire text is devoted to showing how Wintony's accomplishments aren't worthy, without any reference to commend wintony's writing. Get your facts straight. Also, don't get on here and complain about SCers not writing replacements. If you have the time to make these posts, you have the time to write replacements. Anyone can do it, and the fact you don't even try and instead prattle on about how others won't do it for you doesn't add to your credibility.

I feel like some of the best SC and GA proposals are the tongue in cheek ones, but lately it's all lists and no personality.

Ok, yeah. What does this have to do with the rest of your post?

[Nova Vandalia]

You can complain all you like about how exclusionary the SC is, but no one's excluding you. You, or anyone else, are welcome to try your hand at writing. Yet instead you complain about how you would be excluded if you did try. Be the change you wish to see, or shut up.

I am trying to start the conversation, and I have just as much right to post in here as you do, and absolutely love sentiment tell some to shut up because you don't disagree with them. No reason for the bloody hostility. I wasn't being hostile, just critical of the SC.

I love this, because you're blaming the "SC community" for having arbitrary standards, and do so by pulling arbitrary standards out of your ass. Now, while the things you're citing are obviously bs, there is some truth here. The SC does have standards. Would you rather C&Cs are handed out willy nilly, with no consistent quality expectations?

Sure. I have no problem with this. Either hold each area up to the same standards or none, be bloody equitable.

What? In my mind, being IC not OOC is an obvious choice. The SC is not the place to recognize OOC problems, like fascism, homophobia, or sexual predation, and I think that should be obvious. And OOC good actions can almost always be written in an IC way. IC vs OOC is the wrong tree to be barking up.

It's just my opinion, I fully do think the that the community should banned to gather to fight against those problems more so than they already do. I mean sure. The Mods are to be neutral but the community doesn't. The only reason Fascism and homophobia continue on this site is because we can't get our act together because of IC reasons. XD

Stop citing repeal commend wintony as an example of a repeal based off of writing quality. It wasn't at all. The entire text is devoted to showing how Wintony's accomplishments aren't worthy, without any reference to commend wintony's writing.

A shit no yeah you're right that is my bad again. XD I don't know why I have it in my head about that one. Genuine and true apologies and I apologies for misspeaking throughout this conversation on that one. That one is firmly about the merit. Eating crow there.

Anyone can do it, and the fact you don't even try and instead prattle on about how others won't do it for you doesn't add to your credibility.

I'm not a writer. I have trouble expressing my thoughts, I get over emotional. I've always had trouble. Sorry I'm not great at it I guess?
So yeah, maybe don't so critical, and allow people to speak their mind without trying to shut them down in the forums?

Ok, yeah. What does this have to do with the rest of your post?

Well considering the entire thing that set this all of was target at OP who I had had a conversation about that with, it was targeted towards him just saying that we agreed on something.

[Honeydewistania]

You can complain all you like about how exclusionary the SC is, but no one's excluding you. You, or anyone else, are welcome to try your hand at writing. Yet instead you complain about how you would be excluded if you did try. Be the change you wish to see, or shut up.

I am trying to start the conversation, and I have just as much right to post in here as you do, and absolutely love sentiment tell some to shut up because you don't disagree with them. No reason for the bloody hostility. I wasn't being hostile, just critical of the SC.

Lmao your whining isn't any more constructive than not doing so, so don't waste ur energy.

I love this, because you're blaming the "SC community" for having arbitrary standards, and do so by pulling arbitrary standards out of your ass. Now, while the things you're citing are obviously bs, there is some truth here. The SC does have standards. Would you rather C&Cs are handed out willy nilly, with no consistent quality expectations?

Sure. I have no problem with this. Either hold each area up to the same standards or none, be bloody equitable.

How? There are objective and subjective achievements. Issues are objective. RP? Less. Also saying we should commend anyone because standards are 'unfair' is absolutely ludicrous I'm shocked you're not just winding us up.

[Nova Vandalia]

Lmao your whining isn't any more constructive than not doing so, so don't waste ur energy.

Right obviously any criticism is whining, I mean I wouldn't even be having this out with y'all as mine initial comment was directed towards Bormiar, based on another conversation we had. At no point in this thread have I gotten hostile and when I've worried about my statements sounding overly accusatory I've tried to explain them in a way that isn't. If you're not wanting to be a part of this discourse you have a right not to, but if you want to be involved then at least have the wherewithal to add something constructive please.

How? There are objective and subjective achievements. Issues are objective. RP? Less. Also saying we should commend anyone because standards are 'unfair' is absolutely ludicrous I'm shocked you're not just winding us up.

What I'm saying is stop acting like the SC is this completely impartial unbiased body, which you just did by saying it's subjective in regards to RP, now extend that to GP, we're on the same page, just be blatant about it as community and don't hide behind a fake veneer of objectivity at all times, and if you think you don't check with the rest of the community there is a reason the SC gets so much slack.

[Bormiar]

I have to say I'm very happy I missed that previous argument. I have an opinion, but it's just too toxic tbh.

I made some slight changes to the unimpressed clause to make it a bit nicer, per Praetor's suggestion. Because it was only a small change, I'll submit tomorrow. Last call.

[Honeydewistania]

Why are you submitting tomorrow? You said in the OP that you hope for a replacement and the original doesn't do TWI justice - yet one hasn't been drafted on the forums yet.

[Bormiar]

Why are you submitting tomorrow? You said in the OP that you hope for a replacement and the original doesn't do TWI justice - yet one hasn't been drafted on the forums yet.

This replacement thing is very confusing to me. Had things gone our way and the resolution failed, TWI wouldn't be commended and there would be no replacement. So why are they now required to get one immediately?

I understand the problems with the resolution and am perfectly capable of repealing it, but I don't believe I'm the best person to write the replacement. That being said, I contacted an experienced member of the region who showed interest in this repeal and I told them I would help them obtain a replacement that did TWI justice. They told me they believed their regionmates didn't really care about a commendation, as their isolationist philosophy/nature makes it impossible to recognize or respect a WA commendation. With that in mind, I couldn't possibly consider Commend TWI a priority or benefit to anyone.

The Security Council has existed almost 12 years without commending the Western Isles. Seeing that not even the region cares about it, I think we can wait a little longer before commending them again.

Greater Cesnica's draft is a start and certainly gave TWI a lot more publicity than it's used to. I think it's got a good shot at getting replaced soon.

[Honeydewistania]

Why are you submitting tomorrow? You said in the OP that you hope for a replacement and the original doesn't do TWI justice - yet one hasn't been drafted on the forums yet.

This replacement thing is very confusing to me. Had things gone our way and the resolution failed, TWI wouldn't be commended and there would be no replacement. So why are they now required to get one immediately?

I actually couldn't care less, but you mentioned in the OP so it was relevant.

[Bormiar]

Submitted

[Flying Eagles]

Unimpressed by the drafting of SC#336 “Commend the Western Isles”, whose author mistakenly attempted to rush the proposal to the floor of the Security Council, went silent whenever a nation provided constructive criticism, ignored or gave curt, unsubstantive responses to virtually every genuine question from voters, and failed to change the proposal very much in an absurd twelve drafts,

Finding a final blow to “Commend the Western Isles” in the fact that of the few nations which voiced support for SC#336 in the public drafting area, many did so while admitting that the proposal was too poorly written for their liking, implying that the Western Isles is respected, but the same nations which respect it feel SC#336 did not do it justice,

None of what I’ve quoted is necessary in this repeal. Retain focus on explaining why the text of the resolution itself is insufficient. Remove focus from the actions of the author, and remove focus from the general public opinion of the masses. They aren’t relevant to the text at hand.

[The Yellow Emperor]

Support. No Replacement until they can get one at the most appropriate time.

[Comfed]

This is now at vote.

[United States of Americanas]

At the end of the day, the whole bloody security consuls nothing more than badge hunting

[Comfed]

At the end of the day, the whole bloody security consuls nothing more than badge hunting

It’s council, not consul, and yes that is the point of C/Cs but not Liberations, and it’s rather offensive for you to diminish a whole game community as “badge hunting”.

[Wallenburg]

At the end of the day, the whole bloody security consuls nothing more than badge hunting

Seeing as Bormiar already has 5 resolutions under their belt, I doubt that the primary motivation behind this is for a shiny badge.

[WayNeacTia]

At the end of the day, the whole bloody security consuls nothing more than badge hunting

And given the first opportunity, you would likely leap at the chance of acquiring your own badge as well.

[Refuge Isle]

"Repeal "Commend The Western Isles" was passed 9,498 votes to 3,403."

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

"Repeal "Commend The Western Isles" was passed 9,498 votes to 3,403."

Good!

[WayNeacTia]

"Repeal "Commend The Western Isles" was passed 9,498 votes to 3,403."

Good!

It seems the system does actually work.

[Shanzie]

I'm truthfully confused as to the energy behind the repeal. Twi didn't ask for the commendation nor did we fight the repeal. Most of us voted for it lol.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

I'm truthfully confused as to the energy behind the repeal. Twi didn't ask for the commendation nor did we fight the repeal. Most of us voted for it lol.

There was no animosity towards TWI - as you say you didn't ask for the Commendation. It was about removing a poorly written and researched resolution from the books.

[Aruia]

I'm truthfully confused as to the energy behind the repeal. Twi didn't ask for the commendation nor did we fight the repeal. Most of us voted for it lol.

it will help some nations who play the WA game sleep better at night