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Can we stop flooding the SC with cards resolutions?

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Bormiar
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Can we stop flooding the SC with cards resolutions?

Postby Bormiar » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:29 pm

I had a 1500 word textwall written, but by the end of it, I decided I would waste your time if you read it. My problem with these cards resolutions is that they have no standards other than the ones Noahs Second Country and Honeydewistania made by handing out C&Cs to their TNP trader friends.

I know all those guys who're now enshrined as the best players in NS history, and, to be honest, none of them feel like they deserve it. The people who get commendations and condemnations are like the kings and queens of NationStates. They eat power for breakfast and shit wisdom before they go to bed. They don't even care about getting a C&C, because they've been commanding respect everywhere they went for years. These cards players aren't like that. In fact, they're nothing like that. They're talented, semi-new players with their entire careers ahead of them. Just as confused and chaotic as the infant cards community they're a part of. Handing out these resolutions willy-nilly like Honey and Noah are doing is way too premature. So, I'm voting against all of them no matter what, and I hope you guys stop passing them.

Sorry if anyone wanted a textwall. I actually feel kind of awkward keeping this short. I'd love to discuss/debate with anyone just so that I don't feel weird anymore.
Last edited by Bormiar on Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Comfed » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:01 pm

I don't see why we should be isolating a part of the game from receiving C/Cs for work there. However I do think we are seeing a dangerous trend where people are essentially getting C/Ced for deck value - you should have a lot of contributions to the cards community beyond "I farmed a lot" to your record to get C/Ced, for anything on NS. Also for the interest of full disclosure I am a member of The North Pacific Cards Guild.

EDIT: But yes, you are correct in saying that most people C/Ced for cards don't feel like they deserve it. The exceptions to this I would say are Koem Kab because ha practically invented card farming and does it best, and Praetor, but he's done so much more than just cards, and developed the first real cards program. Those are good cards C/Cs.
Last edited by Comfed on Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bormiar » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:15 pm

Comfed wrote:I don't see why we should be isolating a part of the game from receiving C/Cs for work there.

As in, why am I being so absolutist?

The cards community is in its infancy. When gameplay was just starting out, tarting in a feeder meant you got the delegacy. When the SC was starting out, the resolutions looked like this. I can only assume that with the new ideas and strategies and technologies popping up all the time, cards will look a lot different when it stabilizes like all the other subcultures. If the SC existed at the start of the game and 2002 people were condemned for tarting, we would find that very ridiculous, considering how much it takes to coup a feeder now. I don't know if that'll be the case for cards, but I can say that all the cards players that are likely to be commended/condemned are all also in their infancy as players— except a few rare cases that I would consider. Also, being commended for cards is being commended for at-most 2.5 years of playing the game. Only very, very talented gameplayers, WA players, issues writers, roleplayers, etc get commended that fast. It inherently doesn't seem like that would be fair, in terms of how much work they put into the game.

Trust me, I'm not happy about this. You understand that I would look good if I could say that things were going well.
Last edited by Bormiar on Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pallaith » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:36 am

No.

Someday when the standard changes and the picture does too, the resolutions can be repealed and replaced. This is a living game. Cards will be different in the future, but there's no reason to exclude them from the current game state. When will they have changed enough to be considered mature enough to meet the Bormiar standard? Next year? Five years from now?

I see any commendation/condemnation as a snapshot in time. For some players, it takes a snapshot at the end of their career. For others, at the height of their career or a particularly significant moment. It tells us a story in any case, and that story can be of how simply we viewed things at the time, or what sorts of things we valued or got us talking. And if that snapshot doesn't accurately reflect the player anymore, we can take another that does (which may include repealing without replacing).

Right now, we're placing value on this aspect of the game of players who engage with it, taking that aspect of the game as it is now. I have no problem revisiting these in the future if need be, as with any commendation or condemnation.

P.S. I thought you were supposed to be more relaxed or something after coming back. They're just imaginary pieces of (I assume) cardboard. What did they ever do to you? >:(
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Postby Noahs Second Country » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:49 am

Comfed wrote:I don't see why we should be isolating a part of the game from receiving C/Cs for work there. However I do think we are seeing a dangerous trend where people are essentially getting C/Ced for deck value - you should have a lot of contributions to the cards community beyond "I farmed a lot" to your record to get C/Ced, for anything on NS. Also for the interest of full disclosure I am a member of The North Pacific Cards Guild.

EDIT: But yes, you are correct in saying that most people C/Ced for cards don't feel like they deserve it. The exceptions to this I would say are Koem Kab because ha practically invented card farming and does it best, and Praetor, but he's done so much more than just cards, and developed the first real cards program. Those are good cards C/Cs.

The only passed c/c for deck value is Commend Koem Kab, ironically written by the OP. And Koem Kab by no means invented farming...

This is a pretty badly supported take though, honestly. "I don't think card players should be recognized because I don't think they're worthy" is a random personal opinion that probably doesn't deserve it's own topic here on the forums. In theory at least the voters decide who is worthy - if a good case is made then a resolution will pass, random GP politics aside.

In my opinion the spur in card resolutions will stop soon. It's just a small bit of catch-up as people realized that card players can be noticed by the SC. We've also seen new RP resolutions and whatnot - I expect those to start surging as people play catch-up there too. It helps that many of the active authors right now are card players themselves as people are more inclined to give recognition to those around them.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:17 am

Here's a different way of looking at it: there is no natural way that the SC is going to enforce standards within cards resolutions (in the same way that everyone's a critic in GP). They're incredibly easy to write (say, under an hour), so there's nothing to discourage the same writers from making proposals over and over again. TNP basically supports them unconditionally, and other regions have no grievances with them because cards isn't factionalized like gameplay. Given the current standard, I could imagine a commendation / condemnation for at least another 5 traders — bringing it up to probably 1/10th of all active traders.

So if Noah's right and you guys are just finishing up (not that Praetor in the TNP executive discord seems to have made me believe that), I'm probably wrong. But there's no reason for you to. And it's not like Noah and Honey are the only ones who know how to write these resolutions, either. So you can't just pull a switch.

Pallaith wrote:P.S. I thought you were supposed to be more relaxed or something after coming back. They're just imaginary pieces of (I assume) cardboard. What did they ever do to you? >:(

This is me relaxed. And eating cookies, too. :P
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:03 pm

No, running scripts someone else wrote is totally commend-worthy.
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Postby Fauxia » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:16 pm

So since you opened the floodgates 15 months ago, there have been all of five resolutions primarily about cards.

Condemn Koem Kab, Commend DGES, Commend 9003, Condemn NSC, Commend Praetor

Praetor was commended not for simply accumulating bank, but for being what seems to be the primary architect of TNP's card guild, which serves as inspiration for other card guilds in addition to being quite successful on its own. NSC's contributions other than card collecting are not enough to be commendable (otherwise someone would be writing a commendation for me by now!) but the card collecting pushes it over the top. NSC is not Koem Kab, but his collection (two of the top ten collections, actually) is extremely impressive, and he has bent the rules to his will. 9003, in addition to card activity, has what seems to be an impressive record military-wise. Koem Kab, of course, is the unquestioned master of cards, and just like Kindjal, you support it yourself, unless you want to repeal your own resolution now. DGES is the only one I think that really is quite close, but there is more than just normal collection involved in that. All the ex-nation cards are very impressive.

The idea that people are being commended or condemned simply for accumulating cards is absurd. The people who have gotten badges off of it are extremely influential in that sphere. And unlike issues, cards is an interactive game with effects on more than just your nation (at least for big farmers).

tl;dr Yes, we shouldn't give out badges simply for being good at cards, but that's not what's gone on in these resolutions.
Wallenburg wrote:No, running scripts someone else wrote is totally commend-worthy.

Odd to see the Minister of WA Affairs from a feeder not actually read the resolutions but go off I guess.
Last edited by Fauxia on Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:27 pm


Personally, I think that that was reckless and greedy, closer to a character issue than something to be rewarded. Lending that Pergamon for that pull event was probably the worst thing I ever did for cards. NSC getting rich off that was like Farrakhan getting rich boosting his own card.

Edit: looks like he got rich boosting his card too.
Last edited by Bormiar on Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wallenburg » Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:37 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:No, running scripts someone else wrote is totally commend-worthy.

Odd to see the Minister of WA Affairs from a feeder not actually read the resolutions but go off I guess.

Which resolution did I not read to your satisfaction?
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Postby Fauxia » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:36 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Fauxia wrote:Odd to see the Minister of WA Affairs from a feeder not actually read the resolutions but go off I guess.

Which resolution did I not read to your satisfaction?

9003 wrote the scripts, according to the resolution (the most obvious).

Bormiar wrote:

Personally, I think that that was reckless and greedy, closer to a character issue than something to be rewarded. Lending that Pergamon for that pull event was probably the worst thing I ever did for cards. NSC getting rich off that was like Farrakhan getting rich boosting his own card.

Edit: looks like he got rich boosting his card too.

:roll:

Next time you’re going to tell me that people who play in N-Day possess a bloodthirsty and ruinous disposition.

Greedy? The fuck? The whole point of the card game is to accumulate value in cards! It revolves around “bank”. Yeah, I think people are going to be greedy. Amazingly, when a game has rules, people use the rules to their advantage. That is only a problem when it ruins the game for people, and considering how cards are very popular, this doesn’t work.

Anyway, you’re a skilled SC author, so if you really think that about NSC, be my guest and go write a repeal. Otherwise, there’s really no need for assaults on people’s character.
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Postby Wallenburg » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:43 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:Which resolution did I not read to your satisfaction?

9003 wrote the scripts, according to the resolution (the most obvious).

I voted for Commend 9003, so I imagine I wasn't referring to that one when I made my joke.
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Postby Fauxia » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:46 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Fauxia wrote:9003 wrote the scripts, according to the resolution (the most obvious).

I voted for Commend 9003, so I imagine I wasn't referring to that one when I made my joke.

Fair enough in that case. But nobody has been commended simply for accumulating value. All of them have had some unique contribution to the game of cards.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:56 pm

Fauxia wrote:
Bormiar wrote:Personally, I think that that was reckless and greedy, closer to a character issue than something to be rewarded. Lending that Pergamon for that pull event was probably the worst thing I ever did for cards. NSC getting rich off that was like Farrakhan getting rich boosting his own card.

Edit: looks like he got rich boosting his card too.

:roll:

Next time you’re going to tell me that people who play in N-Day possess a bloodthirsty and ruinous disposition.

Greedy? The fuck? The whole point of the card game is to accumulate value in cards! It revolves around “bank”. Yeah, I think people are going to be greedy. Amazingly, when a game has rules, people use the rules to their advantage. That is only a problem when it ruins the game for people, and considering how cards are very popular, this doesn’t work.

Anyway, you’re a skilled SC author, so if you really think that about NSC, be my guest and go write a repeal. Otherwise, there’s really no need for assaults on people’s character.


Fauxia, I was a little more careful with my words than to say Noah has a character problem. Feel free to re-read my post to see that.

Anyways, I've already made my position on this quite clear in an article that Noah is not only aware of, but linked in his Card News. What Noah did — screwed around with the fundamental nature of the cards game in a way that predictably damaged hard-working collectors — only made cards more of a zero-sum game. I don't like that.
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Postby Noahs Second Country » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:05 pm

Bormiar wrote:What Noah did — screwed around with the fundamental nature of the cards game in a way that predictably damaged hard-working collectors — only made cards more of a zero-sum game.

Sounds remotely condemnable :unsure:
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Bormiar wrote: reckless and greedy, closer to a character issue than something to be rewarded.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:10 pm

Noahs Second Country wrote:
Bormiar wrote:What Noah did — screwed around with the fundamental nature of the cards game in a way that predictably damaged hard-working collectors — only made cards more of a zero-sum game.

Sounds remotely condemnable :unsure:

I consider it more like what region crashing (i.e. farkers) is to raiding.
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Postby Praeceps » Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:27 pm

Fauxia wrote:So since you opened the floodgates 15 months ago, there have been all of five resolutions primarily about cards.

Condemn Koem Kab, Commend DGES, Commend 9003, Condemn NSC, Commend Praetor

Praetor was commended not for simply accumulating bank, but for being what seems to be the primary architect of TNP's card guild, which serves as inspiration for other card guilds in addition to being quite successful on its own. NSC's contributions other than card collecting are not enough to be commendable (otherwise someone would be writing a commendation for me by now!) but the card collecting pushes it over the top. NSC is not Koem Kab, but his collection (two of the top ten collections, actually) is extremely impressive, and he has bent the rules to his will. 9003, in addition to card activity, has what seems to be an impressive record military-wise. Koem Kab, of course, is the unquestioned master of cards, and just like Kindjal, you support it yourself, unless you want to repeal your own resolution now. DGES is the only one I think that really is quite close, but there is more than just normal collection involved in that. All the ex-nation cards are very impressive.

The idea that people are being commended or condemned simply for accumulating cards is absurd. The people who have gotten badges off of it are extremely influential in that sphere. And unlike issues, cards is an interactive game with effects on more than just your nation (at least for big farmers).

tl;dr Yes, we shouldn't give out badges simply for being good at cards, but that's not what's gone on in these resolutions.

I wasn't really going to respond to this thread since the premise is pretty ridiculous, all of the SC resolutions for cards have had threads to complain in/provide feedback and buttons to press to vote Against them. However, I thought I should provide some additional information.

You are correct on pretty much everything here in reading the resolutions and analyzing the differences. Two points which should be noted however:

1. My commendation makes no mention of my bank or deck. Not sure if you were aware of that based on your wording but I thought emphasis should be made of it. I would have loved a "big deck" joke but I doubt that would be appropriate.:P
2. As far as my role in the Cards Guild, I certainly don't consider myself to be the primary architect overall. r3n and I both developed independently the idea for government to run cards program. After I posted publicly, he reached out to me and after we observed the meta for a while, we set to work on creating the Cards Guild. I don't quite remember who came up with each of the various programs for all of them, however, regardless of who came up with the idea of specific programs we then both worked together on refining the idea and making changes to the implementation. I was the public face of the Guild as the Guildmaster and handled the aspects of answering questions, entering information into spreadsheets, processing requests, posting dispatches, setting up votes, etc. What r3n did was the technical aspects and the card farming. He does an enormous amount of farming. I rarely do any farming. :P I consider myself and r3n to be both co-founders. r3n does a crazy amount of farming to ensure that we have cards for our programs and that often goes unrecognized as to just how much cards he gives away and how much time he spends on the Guild since he often hides away.
Last edited by Praeceps on Fri Dec 18, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Honeydewistania » Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:37 pm

Bormiar wrote:
Noahs Second Country wrote:Sounds remotely condemnable :unsure:

I consider it more like what region crashing (i.e. farkers) is to raiding.

So still condemnable. Gotcha.
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Postby Bormiar » Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:53 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Bormiar wrote:I consider it more like what region crashing (i.e. farkers) is to raiding.

So still condemnable. Gotcha.

Clearly you don't know what my comparison means. That's fine; it's an obscure reference from 17 years ago.
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Postby Unibot III » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:29 pm

I'll play Devil's Advocate...

"Early movers" in NS tend to remain of interest for a long time to NSers, even as the game professionalizes and the scale of their accomplishments diminish in contrast to successors.

Innovation drives this game, and innovators reap its plaudits. Sometimes you come around at the right time, you get lucky, and you have the opportunity to break new ground and charter unknown territory. To be among the first, not necessarily the best, but a pioneer all the same.

I felt that way, for instance, when I was an SC Author in the SC's infancy. It was a great honour to be among its first. But it was also just luck. I and others, like Sedge & AMOM & Topid, happened to be a WA Author at the right time. The Card game today is a gilded boomtown, and these chaps are its robber barons and industralists, mining for fortune and glory. The Nouveau Riche. There's a certain eminence in trailblazing.

Interestingly, I also suspect that the value of cards and the attention they recieve from the WA are probably linked. If players believe it is an accessible path to glory and recognition, more players will want a cut. So the free PR has a payoff.
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