[DRAFT] Commend Tim-Opolis

[Nova Vandalia]

Most of the facts we spit out in the SC just ain't that important.

Came around to that fact a little late for my convince but glad you got there, Bormiar.



As for the resolution, Tim has done a lot even it definitely hasn't been and arguably has directly affected in a negative way my Niche of NS, so full support once those suggestions are taken into consideration.

[Bormiar]

Came around to that fact a little late for my convince but glad you got there, Bormiar.

Do I know you?

Seriously, I don't mean that to be a jerk. Did we have an argument about the SC before or something? Or are you commenting on my resolutions?

And just to clarify: those facts do matter when applied in an emotionally or politically appealing way. Sometimes they help just to fill space. So I'm not telling the author to get rid of them. Just use them with purpose.

[Nova Vandalia]

Came around to that fact a little late for my convince but glad you got there, Bormiar.

Do I know you?

Seriously, I don't mean that to be a jerk. Did we have an argument about the SC before or something? Or are you commenting on my resolutions?

And just to clarify: those facts do matter when applied in an emotionally or politically appealing way. Sometimes they help just to fill space. So I'm not telling the author to get rid of them. Just use them with purpose.

Still in full agreement.

I feel like you used to and a lot of writers disagree with that, focusing solely on the fact and not on the emotional and making the SC's personal, and why you didn't explicitly argue against this recently you at least stood backing up an argument that SC should solely focus on the factual, even if it was in direct agreement with that sentiment.

I just wish someone like you has had a large impact on the SC and how it has evolved at least recently in regards what is acceptable would have been louder with this earlier. We'd have a friendlier and more open SC, to people outside of the norm.

Either way though, yeah, Add flavor and personality in to this one.

[Bormiar]

Do I know you?

Seriously, I don't mean that to be a jerk. Did we have an argument about the SC before or something? Or are you commenting on my resolutions?

And just to clarify: those facts do matter when applied in an emotionally or politically appealing way. Sometimes they help just to fill space. So I'm not telling the author to get rid of them. Just use them with purpose.

Still in full agreement.

I feel like you used to and a lot of writers disagree with that, focusing solely on the fact and not on the emotional and making the SC's personal, and why you didn't explicitly argue against this recently you at least stood backing up an argument that SC should solely focus on the factual, even if it was in direct agreement with that sentiment.

I just wish someone like you has had a large impact on the SC and how it has evolved at least recently in regards what is acceptable would have been louder with this earlier. We'd have a friendlier and more open SC, to people outside of the norm.

Either way though, yeah, Add flavor and personality in to this one.

I think I've actually stood on the two extremes. My gameplay proposals tapped into my interest in NationStates history (however incorrect or biased it may be), so I see where you're coming from on that regard.

Kindjal and Koem Kab were intended to be a little bit more fun. I believe that those kind of resolutions — "New-Age" as I call them — have seen so much success within the SC community not only because they're so easy to write, but because they have so much personality behind them. A well-done Commend Valentine Z, for example, can easily make the reader feel as though they know Valentine Z. Likewise, two cards proposal can cite the same exact facts and come across wildly different— Koem Kab and Noahs Second Country are evil mega-corporations; yet somehow 9003 is different? In fact, I only condemned Koem Kab (instead of commended) because I felt like it. I suspect Noah and 9003 got to choose the tone of their resolutions.

In gameplay, it's harder to do that. For starters, we have a moral rigidness — I suspect due to moralist defenders — that prevents us from having the same flexibility in gameplay as we do in cards. If you treat gameplay in the same way as we treat cards— both of which are highly competitive— there's nothing inherently wrong with, say, a raider getting commended for making raider scripts. But that idea has become so foreign that it sounds ridiculous even as I write it.

There's also Rule 4. Cards and other "New Age" resolutions are forced to dance around rule 4, which gives the writer an excuse to use some creativity. For example, Koem Kab storing cards in another nation (it's a strategy I won't go into) makes perfect sense when you think of cards as pieces of code stored because they give you a good digital net worth and you can sell them later. But when you treat them as pieces of "art" to be "admired" in the nation's "museums", Koem Kab storing cards in Greatest Chernobyl can be described as "disrespectfully [keeping] art in the warehouses of its largest colony". When a gameplay author uses rhetorical embellishment to circumvent Rule 4 and fit the tone of the proposal, they're misleading.

Primarily though, gameplay is a far more divided subculture than cards. The reason extreme rhetorical embellishment or truth manipulation isn't allowed (like it is in cards) is because changing the facts or how we interpret them challenges the gameplay factions, their beliefs, and their narratives. My example of Tim ditching the vice-delegacy of TNP to participate in a military operation— that's the truest description of Tim I can think of (speaking as someone who admittedly doesn't know him well), and for the proposal to brag about that would match Tim's personality perfectly. But how would TNP feel about that? How is that of all things commendable? Gameplay proposals will always read as little more than lists of facts, because those facts have already been interpreted by a defender-dominated portion of the gameplay community, and the author therefore doesn't have a lot of room to create their own tone. Theoretically, if a defender nominee wanted a condemnation instead of a commendation, and gameplay behaved as cards does, liberations could be described as defenders keeping inactive regions from being repurposed by heroic raiders, and the defender can be portrayed as a warlord of sorts.

Honestly, I have no clue how to give gameplay proposals more personality. Maybe quoting the nominee's own description of events (the disgusted clause here I think is the most effective in the entire proposal)? Slipping in a joke or acrostic? I can see how you can copy the personality when C&Cing someone super "meme-y" or super serious, but Tim is complicated, and stepping too far in copying his personality would probably guarantee this proposal's failure. I really have no clue.

P.S. This post has mostly been me talking to myself / trying to think, so sorry if it's convoluted or stupid.

[Nova Vandalia]

Still in full agreement.

I feel like you used to and a lot of writers disagree with that, focusing solely on the fact and not on the emotional and making the SC's personal, and why you didn't explicitly argue against this recently you at least stood backing up an argument that SC should solely focus on the factual, even if it was in direct agreement with that sentiment.

I just wish someone like you has had a large impact on the SC and how it has evolved at least recently in regards what is acceptable would have been louder with this earlier. We'd have a friendlier and more open SC, to people outside of the norm.

Either way though, yeah, Add flavor and personality in to this one.

I think I've actually stood on the two extremes. My gameplay proposals tapped into my interest in NationStates history (however incorrect or biased it may be), so I see where you're coming from on that regard.

Kindjal and Koem Kab were intended to be a little bit more fun. I believe that those kind of resolutions — "New-Age" as I call them — have seen so much success within the SC community not only because they're so easy to write, but because they have so much personality behind them. A well-done Commend Valentine Z, for example, can easily make the reader feel as though they know Valentine Z. Likewise, two cards proposal can cite the same exact facts and come across wildly different— Koem Kab and Noahs Second Country are evil mega-corporations; yet somehow 9003 is different? In fact, I only condemned Koem Kab (instead of commended) because I felt like it. I suspect Noah and 9003 got to choose the tone of their resolutions.

In gameplay, it's harder to do that. For starters, we have a moral rigidness — I suspect due to moralist defenders — that prevents us from having the same flexibility in gameplay as we do in cards. If you treat gameplay in the same way as we treat cards— both of which are highly competitive— there's nothing inherently wrong with, say, a raider getting commended for making raider scripts. But that idea has become so foreign that it sounds ridiculous even as I write it.

There's also Rule 4. Cards and other "New Age" resolutions are forced to dance around rule 4, which gives the writer an excuse to use some creativity. For example, Koem Kab storing cards in another nation (it's a strategy I won't go into) makes perfect sense when you think of cards as pieces of code stored because they give you a good digital net worth and you can sell them later. But when you treat them as pieces of "art" to be "admired" in the nation's "museums", Koem Kab storing cards in Greatest Chernobyl can be described as "disrespectfully [keeping] art in the warehouses of its largest colony". When a gameplay author uses rhetorical embellishment to circumvent Rule 4 and fit the tone of the proposal, they're misleading.

Primarily though, gameplay is a far more divided subculture than cards. The reason extreme rhetorical embellishment or truth manipulation isn't allowed (like it is in cards) is because changing the facts or how we interpret them challenges the gameplay factions, their beliefs, and their narratives. My example of Tim ditching the vice-delegacy of TNP to participate in a military operation— that's the truest description of Tim I can think of (speaking as someone who admittedly doesn't know him well), and for the proposal to brag about that would match Tim's personality perfectly. But how would TNP feel about that? How is that of all things commendable? Gameplay proposals will always read as little more than lists of facts, because those facts have already been interpreted by a defender-dominated portion of the gameplay community, and the author therefore doesn't have a lot of room to create their own tone. Theoretically, if a defender nominee wanted a condemnation instead of a commendation, and gameplay behaved as cards does, liberations could be described as defenders keeping inactive regions from being repurposed by heroic raiders, and the defender can be portrayed as a warlord of sorts.

Honestly, I have no clue how to give gameplay proposals more personality. Maybe quoting the nominee's own description of events (the disgusted clause here I think is the most effective in the entire proposal)? Slipping in a joke or acrostic? I can see how you can copy the personality when C&Cing someone super "meme-y" or super serious, but Tim is complicated, and stepping too far in copying his personality would probably guarantee this proposal's failure. I really have no clue.

P.S. This post has mostly been me talking to myself / trying to think, so sorry if it's convoluted or stupid.

No, well put, but I mean I think that speak volumes about the game play community and because it's so exercised feed to a lot of distrust and hate around the SC, and has fed into mine. I mean one of the reasons I took a comend repeal so personally is because well hell it was, because of that game play community. I think we need to be called out on it more often by respected individuals, make the SC fun again. It allows ours Authors to be craftier in how they "disguise" OOC things into IC things and opens them up to so much. That's my biggest is we can give an award to the Card community, we should be able to come together as a group to decide to give an award to those people who might not have made 50 treaties but if you VC'd with them you felt like NS was home, the kind that low key dropped 100 bucks on TG's because they believed in your new region. They kind of folks who have 50 puppets in 50 regions and supports every one they come into contact with.

I get so frustrated because we can't always reward the people who need it and often those times we do, we then become so critical of the writings later on. So I just feel like that needs to be a loud voice. Like SC needs to take a chill pill, sometimes and put on some Firesign Theatre.

So Again thank you, and again Full Support to this, just make is spicy ^_^

[Bormiar]

snip

No, well put, but I mean I think that speak volumes about the game play community and because it's so exercised feed to a lot of distrust and hate around the SC, and has fed into mine. I mean one of the reasons I took a comend repeal so personally is because well hell it was, because of that game play community. I think we need to be called out on it more often by respected individuals, make the SC fun again. It allows ours Authors to be craftier in how they "disguise" OOC things into IC things and opens them up to so much. That's my biggest is we can give an award to the Card community, we should be able to come together as a group to decide to give an award to those people who might not have made 50 treaties but if you VC'd with them you felt like NS was home, the kind that low key dropped 100 bucks on TG's because they believed in your new region. They kind of folks who have 50 puppets in 50 regions and supports every one they come into contact with.

I get so frustrated because we can't always reward the people who need it and often those times we do, we then become so critical of the writings later on. So I just feel like that needs to be a loud voice. Like SC needs to take a chill pill, sometimes and put on some Firesign Theatre.

So Again thank you, and again Full Support to this, just make is spicy ^_^

Gameplay politics have almost certainly led to deserving nominees not being commended/condemned, particularly those who have played on both sides. Tim's an excellent example of that, particularly if this fails (a distinct possibility). The repeal of Sedge and AMOM's commendations are even better examples. As are the defender crusades against Westwind and Evil Wolf's commendations. Or — and here's a really interesting example — how condemn LKE always fails because they think they should be commended or whatever.

We're just focusing on the negatives though. I think if gameplayers didn't enjoy their politics, they'd stop. If that interferes with the quality of gameplay resolutions, so be it.

[WayNeacTia]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

[Bormiar]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

Touchy subjects? I really don't know, but just a guess with Cormac and the UDL.

[WayNeacTia]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

Touchy subjects? I really don't know, but just a guess with Cormac and the UDL.

Yet, together both represent a major portion of Tim's known history.

[Pluvie]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

Touchy subjects? I really don't know, but just a guess with Cormac and the UDL.

Tbh couldn't tell ya if those are touchy subjects but I do think that if you're gonna write an SC resolution, you should try to tell a full story of a person and leaving out what seems to be an important fact makes the resolution feel incomplete once ya realize it's missing

[Deadeye Jack]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

Your memory is bad. Tim has been around in TGW for 4.5 years and has been at the rank of commander for much of that time. May even be the defender organization he was with the longest in his whole career. I'm not sure about that bit of speculation but totally plausible and should be easy enough to confirm for someone who cares.

[Bormiar]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

Your memory is bad. Tim has been around in TGW for 4.5 years and has been at the rank of commander for much of that time. May even be the defender organization he was with the longest in his whole career. I'm not sure about that bit of speculation but totally plausible and should be easy enough to confirm for someone who cares.

4.5 years, wouldn't that mean he was there just about since the beginning?

[Deadeye Jack]

Your memory is bad. Tim has been around in TGW for 4.5 years and has been at the rank of commander for much of that time. May even be the defender organization he was with the longest in his whole career. I'm not sure about that bit of speculation but totally plausible and should be easy enough to confirm for someone who cares.

4.5 years, wouldn't that mean he was there just about since the beginning?

Yep pretty much. Although I don't think he was in the short-lived 2015 version of TGW though. Wasn't around for that myself so not 100% on that.

[Unibot III]

It may have been left out under instructions by the nominee, but one area of Tim’s contributions overlooked in the current draft is Tim’s work in the UDL.

Tim was always a hard-working and dedicated lieutenant and he discharged his duties and his oath faithfully. Tim usually acted as triggerman on UDL’s operations (especially during Eluvatar’s absences); he was suited to triggering because he worked well in high pressure situations and was very good at rushed arithmetics. Triggerman was an especially important role in liberations, and triggering was still a process that was still in its infancy.

In one memorable case, Tim resigned as Vice Delegate of TNP shortly after being elected, so that he could assist in the liberation of Eastern Islands of Dharma. TNP was shocked. A small TNP-UDL diplomatic incident even ensued, but the honest-to-god truth is nobody asked Tim to resign. Tim wanted to free up his WA to assist in the liberation. It was the kind of grand gesture that one can’t forget.

Edit: I hadn’t read the full thread with some of the discussion on the UDL vs TGW before I posted, this post wasn’t intended as a response to that discussion.

[Tim-Opolis]

I really hate to be that guy, but....... There really needs u to be some mention of both Cormac, and the UDL in this, or it isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. Tim couped Osiris on behalf of Cormac, after the whole Durk disaster. As for TGW? Tim was a latecomer in that, and if memory serve correct, actually criticized Thomas for founding in the first place.

Hi. I normally don't wade into threads that are addressing commending myself, but this post is just so hilariously fucking inaccurate that I need to be present to thoroughly set the record straight against this horseshit.

1. The UDL is a long-dead organization that serves no significant relevance in the modern-day R/D meta. While it's worth citing it if one wants to discuss my overall 8+ years as a Defender, starting with being handed a Lieutenant gig in the UDL more or less as soon as I switched sides, it really doesn't have much value besides that. In fact, it's more a testament to my unbreakable mental that I was able to sit through the shitshow that was the UDL and not immediately switch sides again. Ignoring that organization certainly doesn't make the proposal not worth "the paper it's written on".

2. It's really funny to see people who weren't around and clearly know fuck all about the coup to tell me what my motivations were to the OFO 2.0 Coup of Osiris. Contrary to your beliefs, and the beliefs of whoever inaccurately told you that, the coup wasn't even remotely on behalf of Cormac. Cormac, in fact, was one of the more apprehensive people in the Miniluv groupchat up until I rather arbitrarily pulled the trigger on the operation. We had suspected Jesus Whale was a bad actor for quite some time at that point, but were hopeful that we'd be able to handle the matter through "democratic" means. There was still discussion on if it was worth banning Jesus Whale up until I dropped a copy/paste of the RH stating my ban of them. Cormac wasn't even supposed to be Delegate; the coup unfortunately came at an inopportune time for myself. I had semester finals that same week, and week following that, so we needed someone else capable to be able to swing the Delegacy hammer and wasn't still feigning public neutrality. So I threw it the hot potato at Cormac and yelled catch.

Oh, also, the "Durk Disaster" was literally during a different government regime than my coup. The Gatesville Coup was during KRO, which was already subsequently couped by the 1.0 OFO that I was Pharaoh of.

3. You really don't know who I am do you? Hi, First Warden of The Order of The Grey Wardens here, pleasure to meet you. We are (in my opinion) the best defender military in the game, commanding 35+ active updaters, the most active off-update reservist force, the hearts and minds of most of Gameplay. In addition, while the previous facts are up for debate, this next one isn't. We are without question the most elite R/D Chasing Outfit this game has ever seen, with there being little question that Haku, Vincent Drake, and myself are the Top 3 Major Update Chasers.

I've been a Commanding Officer in TGW since the TGW 2.0 iteration in 2016, of which I was a founding member. I also endorsed and applauded the 2015 version of The Grey Wardens, though I'm happy that the 2016 rebrand dumped the useless non-updating politicians there adding little value (Astarial, Lord Ravenclaw, etc). I'm not sure where you've found the notion that I criticized BT for founding the organization, as that could be nothing further from the truth. I've been a representative of the TGW brand since basically Day 1.

Here's a tip, kid. Get your memory checked.

EDIT:

To clarify in response to another post in this thread - while I don't think the UDL merits all too much mention, I have not requested it be kept out of any proposals commending myself and have no opposition to its inclusion.

[Syberis]

a community for which they started many programs and endeavors which have carried into the modern era

[citation needed]

Especially considering the terms Tim is currently on with Osiris, a line such as this does require more than just "There's a lot," but instead requires specific programs and endeavo...

Wait. What even is an "endeavor" in NS terms? It's kinda meaningless honestly, feels like a fluff word.

[Comfed]

In one memorable case, Tim resigned as Vice Delegate of TNP shortly after being elected, so that he could assist in the liberation of Eastern Islands of Dharma. TNP was shocked. A small TNP-UDL diplomatic incident even ensued, but the honest-to-god truth is nobody asked Tim to resign. Tim wanted to free up his WA to assist in the liberation. It was the kind of grand gesture that one can’t forget.

That’s not a grand gesture. That’s just abandoning one’s region to do an op.

[Jakker]

In one memorable case, Tim resigned as Vice Delegate of TNP shortly after being elected, so that he could assist in the liberation of Eastern Islands of Dharma. TNP was shocked. A small TNP-UDL diplomatic incident even ensued, but the honest-to-god truth is nobody asked Tim to resign. Tim wanted to free up his WA to assist in the liberation. It was the kind of grand gesture that one can’t forget.

That probably happened because you raged against all defenders who wouldn't devote all of their time and energy to fail in multiple liberation attempts of the region. Dharma was never liberated. Raiders eventually left on their own accord after a month. Not sure why you thought it was smart to bring that up since all of that really just makes you and anyone involved in those attempts look bad.

[Unibot III]

In one memorable case, Tim resigned as Vice Delegate of TNP shortly after being elected, so that he could assist in the liberation of Eastern Islands of Dharma. TNP was shocked. A small TNP-UDL diplomatic incident even ensued, but the honest-to-god truth is nobody asked Tim to resign. Tim wanted to free up his WA to assist in the liberation. It was the kind of grand gesture that one can’t forget.

That probably happened because you raged against all defenders who wouldn't devote all of their time and energy to fail in multiple liberation attempts of the region. Dharma was never liberated. Raiders eventually left on their own accord after a month. Not sure why you thought it was smart to bring that up since all of that really just makes you and anyone involved in those attempts look bad.

I didn’t do any such thing.

If you had devoted as much time to defending against invasions as you do to shitposting, you wouldn’t have had to count on bad luck for a repeat of Italia.

Some invaders become invaders because they like to cause trouble, and others become invaders because they’re too lazy to be successful elsewhere.

[Jakker]

That probably happened because you raged against all defenders who wouldn't devote all of their time and energy to fail in multiple liberation attempts of the region. Dharma was never liberated. Raiders eventually left on their own accord after a month. Not sure why you thought it was smart to bring that up since all of that really just makes you and anyone involved in those attempts look bad.

I didn’t do any such thing.

If you had devoted as much time to defending against invasions as you do to shitposting, you wouldn’t have had to count on bad luck for a repeat of Italia.

Some invaders become invaders because they like to cause trouble, and others become invaders because they’re too lazy to be successful elsewhere.

You and I both know how overly insistent you were about it. I do find it funny though that you are trying to preach to me about success...

Going back to the proposal specifically, including anything about UDL will not do much to enhance the argument.

[Penguin Palace]

Made some more edits to address several of the points raised.

Apologies for my stagnation here, have been busy.

[Grea Kriopia]

A few minor things I noticed:

...an incoming coup headed by The Almighty Jesus Whale , a dangerous threat to regional functions that was ultimately stopped in it’s its tracks by the nominee’s actions...

A random space after Jesus Whale, plus an unnecessary contraction

Building upon the nominee's four passed security council resolutions and one co-authored passed resolution, which include...

Does passed need to be included here for either instance? The 'passed' is implied by it being called a resolution, if not it would be a proposal or simply defeated.

...an achievement which helped countless nations keep track of the items passed by this body and a grueling administrative task not for fit for everyone...

Small typo

[Drop Your Pants]

Applauding Tim for making old feckers defend when they really don't want to.

[Benevolent Thomas]

There may not have been a TGW 2.0 without Tim. They were one of a handful of nations across the R/N/D spectrum that egged on its creation and played a massive role in shaping the organization's culture from its earliest days. The rarest of facts: I was in preliminary talks with Ravania about making a new organization and we were in a middle of a disagreement about how to deal with invader regions, when the GP community, lead largely by Tim and Ridersyl, really cranked up the heat on me to bring TGW back. It all happened so fast, it felt like I did it on a whim and I rather blindsided Rav, condemning him to be regionless. Its one thing to get me to say I'm doing something, its another thing entirely to get me to fully buy back into an experiment that had left me mostly jaded. Without Tim's encouragement, its unlikely I would have done it. If I had, I would have not worked as hard as I did and we sure as hell wouldn't have had twenty wardens by the end of the first month. He is a hype-man's hype-man and we're still running off the fuel he creates.

"Lauding Tim-Opolis' efforts to inform the public, in an often and entertaining fashion, the results of defender activities to better the world whilst fighting the endless propaganda of those who seek to destroy it". --> You can have this one for free

[Penguin Palace]

Addressed all three posts