[Pulled] Repeal SC#245: Liberate Kaiserreich

[Honeydewistania]

"Peepeepoopoo" lmfao

[Starfyre]

It failing isn't why I pulled it Jack. There's serious concern in my mind, as well as others, as to the maturity level of the community and they're behaviour. Those posts aren't good posts on their RMB.

According to all of your posts on the TSP Voting Center like less than a day ago at this point (Direct Quote Below) . There wasn't any doubt in your mind.

https://www.nationstates.net/region=the ... #p41813054

"TNP's reasoning is flawed. Kaiserreich has almost no potential to slipping back into their old ways, and no drive to do so either. They know how destructive that was to their region and the bad people that pushed it are now almost all gone. Also, they're reasoning that this will leave the door open to "future, far less desirable repeals" is completely far-fetched.

Right now there are three of these types of Liberations in place. The one on kreich, the one on CCD, and the one on Nazi Europa. The other two show no signs of getting rid of the reasons those liberations were put in place, and they should absolutely stay up. The only region that shows improvement is kreich, and by repealing this liberation it could show others in the same position that they need to change.

I agree with Jack this is a super convenient reasoning. I mean I'm glad you pulled it, I don't they deserve a repeal of thier liberation ever, but at least be straight forward with us, that this isn't a true question of conscience as it should be but one of convenience that lead to the pull.

Dakota didn't bring it to my attention until around 7:45pm EST last night in the TRR discord, something both she and Jamie can attest to. Before that I had no knowledge of it, and admit that I didn't dig too far into kreich before writing the proposal. I am being straightforward.

[Miss Bad Life Choices]

Personally the quote I brought to Starfyre's attention was this one, and she pulled the repeal shortly after. The quote may not be Totes Fashy, but I still assume that's a behavior Star disagrees with (it's one I disagree with obvi, is why I brought it up :p) and made sense for her to pull her proposal with that. I only brought up the quote whenever I got pinged for a WA thing and bothered to look at KReich's RMB, which was only 4/5 hours before, imagine had I brought it up sooner would have been pulled sooner.

[Chimes]

For the record, I can also attest to what Starfyre says is true. To be clear, this is not a proposal that I have any stake in - if I had any strong feelings I'd have commented here prior. My personal opinion is that the liberation should still be repealed, but maybe now is not the right time.

[Nova Vandalia]

[quote="Starfyre";p="38029938"]Before that I had no knowledge of it, and admit that I didn't dig too far into kreich before writing the proposal. I am being straightforward.[quote="Starfyre";p="38029938"]


Now I do feel liek you're being honest to admit that you didn't do the research.

I applaud you for pulling it, but some one of your stature and with your political weight, Kuriko, in the SC, and NS community at large.... should be ashamed and if not is in need of a big ego check, for even proposing this without doing due diligence and then consistently defending it in your statements on TNP's RMB without that due diligence being done.

I'm not a fan of XKI, but I was a fan of yours until this, severely disappointed and upset. This repeal could of been dangerous and hurtful to the larger NS community if they fall back into Fascistic tendencies.

[Honeydewistania]

Before that I had no knowledge of it, and admit that I didn't dig too far into kreich before writing the proposal. I am being straightforward.

Complaining about others not doing 'research', yet you haven't backed up any of your previous claims in other threads with solid evidence If anyone is need of an ego check, it should be you

[Nova Vandalia]

Complaining about others not doing 'research', yet you haven't backed up any of your previous claims in other threads with solid evidence If anyone is need of an ego check, it should be you

I admitted to Syl that the remark was inflammatory in the other one, thank you very much. But truly lovely to actually add to the topic of hand and make truly defensible and non ad hominem statements, considering that Starfyre openly admitted to not doing a solid look into the region herself.

EDIT: Also on another note, my voice is still valid. Kuriko is a pillar of the NS community and is respected by just about everyone. Putting her name and efforts behind anything gives credence to it. As I said I was a fan of hers. I don't agree with XKI on almost anything, but Kuriko is damned respectable, I know you don't what that's like, Honeydew, but too see someone with so much clout brazenly toss her weight behind potentially allows a fascistic region to return in full power or to fall back in to thier old ways is awful to see, especially with the lack of attention to the current climate in that region. So yeah I'm saying she needs to step back and look at what could have happened.

[Trigori]

Hello everyone. First off, I'd like to say please do not take the stance of dictating if/when an author can pull their own proposal. It is the authors ultimate choice on whether or not to let their proposal go to vote after reaching quorum, not the choice of anyone else barring rules violations and mod removal.

Secondly, I was sound asleep when all this arguing was going on. As many know, I live on the East Coast of the US and cannot be awake at 4am to argue with people within the SC. There were concerning posts on the KREICH RMB, as well as concerning discord content that others found after joining their discord server. I'll link the posts, but will not copy the content to the forum.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41820030
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41812222
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41810226
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41810765
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41809853
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41809396


From someone outside the region:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41809251

This is seriously why you think it was a good idea to pull the entire proposal? These are your reasons? These posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the reasons of the liberation at all?

[Honeydewistania]

Complaining about others not doing 'research', yet you haven't backed up any of your previous claims in other threads with solid evidence If anyone is need of an ego check, it should be you

But truly lovely to actually add to the topic of hand and make truly defensible and non ad hominem statements,

Thanks!

This repeal could of been dangerous and hurtful to the larger NS community if they fall back into Fascistic tendencies.

Also, have you heard of 'passing another liberation after the repeal if they fall back into tendencies as they had clearly not learned their lesson, and this new liberation will be repeal-proof as it will be evident that KR will not change their ways'?

[Nova Vandalia]

I guess I should have expected for sarcasm to go over your head, but real question since we're being so blunt.

But you know we could actually get back on topic, or in your case you could actually add to it for the first time?

And as for your second statement, I mean you are the one with a history of predatory repeals to add notches to your WA belt at the expense of the hard work of other in the NS community so, I suppose valid point, but there is also always the chance a second liberate would fail, one I'm not willing to take considereding Fascism's and Nazism's, awful nature, but you know if you want to give Fascists and Nazi's the benefit of the doubt be my guest, I wouldn't be surprised by you taking that stance.

[Nova Vandalia]

One Last thing. I do apologize Kuriko if I came off as overly harsh. It's just I know you care about the community, you have a great head for the game and for the community. I just severely disagree with the fact that this was even on the table and further that it wasn't investigated more thoroughly. I truly do apologize for any rhetoric towards you that might have gotten a little to feisty.

[Makdon]

Ya'll just love to get on people for literally no reason huh. Kuriko is completely capable of determining what conduct she feels makes KAISERREICH deserving of repeal of its liberation or not. If you'd rather believe that Kuriko is doing this as some conniving attempt to look good, you're welcome to look at the world through a lens of seeing the worst in everyone, but personally I'd prefer to think that Kuriko didn't want to help a region she didn't like very much. Which also, funnily enough, makes the most sense. I trust that Kuriko did research that made her believe KAISERREICH was no longer fascist (which still appears to be true) but just didn't look into whether they were posting things she disapproved of on their rmb, which is perfectly reasonable. Anyways, this is all a massive overreaction that means nothing, but it annoyed me to see people being assholes. also,

I guess I should have expected for sarcasm to go over your head, but real question since we're being so blunt.

lol, I would've presumed ur smart enough to realize his response was with that in mind, but I guess not

And as for your second statement, I mean you are the one with a history of predatory repeals to add notches to your WA belt at the expense of the hard work of other in the NS community so, I suppose valid point, but there is also always the chance a second liberate would fail, one I'm not willing to take considereding Fascism's and Nazism's, awful nature, but you know if you want to give Fascists and Nazi's the benefit of the doubt be my guest, I wouldn't be surprised by you taking that stance.

What was that about ad hominem earlier?

[Honeydewistania]

I guess I should have expected for sarcasm to go over your head, but real question since we're being so blunt.

Ah, the irony.

And as for your second statement, I mean you are the one with a history of predatory repeals to add notches to your WA belt at the expense of the hard work of other in the NS community so,

You mean repealing poorly written legislation (of which 2 of the authors conceded that the target was subpar and all of which opened up to a superior replacement), but that's irrelevant here.

I suppose valid point, but there is also always the chance a second liberate would fail,

If there is undeniable proof that KR resorted to their old ways, it would not be defeated, as GCRs will rubberstamp it to quorum and passage. This chance is so minimal it's ridiculous you even bring this up as a point.

but you know if you want to give Fascists and Nazi's the benefit of the doubt be my guest, I wouldn't be surprised by you taking that stance.

This is one of the most moronic statements I have ever heard. If you believe that me, the author of two SC commends on antifascism + Antifa command, would be friendly to actual fascists, it proves that you are completely ignorant of what you're talking about. I give KR the benefit of the doubt because I've not heard of them doing fash stuff in a while, plus they've been removed from the CDS, so if you think that 5 feeders are wrong be my guest. (i.e. provide empirical evidence that KR are fascist or leaning towards it)

[Trigori]

So since saying "peepeepoopoo" now apparently equals Hitler, is anyone planning on resubmitting this?

[Nova Vandalia]

Ya'll just love to get on people for literally no reason huh. Kuriko is completely capable of determining what conduct she feels makes KAISERREICH deserving of repeal of its liberation or not. If you'd rather believe that Kuriko is doing this as some conniving attempt to look good, you're welcome to look at the world through a lens of seeing the worst in everyone, but personally I'd prefer to think that Kuriko didn't want to help a region she didn't like very much. Which also, funnily enough, makes the most sense. I trust that Kuriko did research that made her believe KAISERREICH was no longer fascist (which still appears to be true) but just didn't look into whether they were posting things she disapproved of on their rmb, which is perfectly reasonable. Anyways, this is all a massive overreaction that means nothing, but it annoyed me to see people being assholes. also,

I guess I should have expected for sarcasm to go over your head, but real question since we're being so blunt.

lol, I would've presumed ur smart enough to realize his response was with that in mind, but I guess not

And as for your second statement, I mean you are the one with a history of predatory repeals to add notches to your WA belt at the expense of the hard work of other in the NS community so, I suppose valid point, but there is also always the chance a second liberate would fail, one I'm not willing to take considering Fascism's and Nazism's, awful nature, but you know if you want to give Fascists and Nazi's the benefit of the doubt be my guest, I wouldn't be surprised by you taking that stance.

What was that about ad hominem earlier?

Not an ad hominiem, there bud, Several if not most of his WA badges come specifically from repeal, as a matter of fact I believe on the last one he pointed a problem just the day after one passed, and considering his consistent Region Sovereignty boasts, and apparent for Kreich to be liberated I would say that lack of surprise at his leaning wouldn't be that far fetched.

All based on pretty obvious things, that people turn a blind eye towards.

As for the rest of your statement, maybe, but she should have been sure beyond any doubt. Her words carry a hell of a lot weight. I respect her, but I do not respect this position she took, and being such a public figure on NS she should be open to criticism for it, but I do forget that you can't criticize anyone who involved with Defenderism. So I apologize to the community, I forgot such a crucial rule there.

[Nova Vandalia]

Look My criticism of you isn't here nor there.

But Why am I asked to be give proof that Kaiserreich hasn't changed, when really the burden of proof, which has now officially failed in the eye of the author thus the pulled, should be on those saying they have. It's still a region f harmful non sense to the community who make light of Nasism and Fascism, as they're doing right now on their own RMB in response to this being pulled. Joking that obviously their Nazi's again.

OH far it be from anyone to ask for some measure of accountability and oversight, when a good person makes a mistake to make sure the mistake doesn't happen again.

But You know, obviously that guy saying maybe we shouldn't give Nazis a second chance is the bad man in this situation.

[Miss Bad Life Choices]

Well, don't you think this could have been decided by a vote in this voting assembly we have, instead of suddenly pulling the entire liberation because someone posted something on the RMB?

Which is still incredibly selfish to everyone who approved the resolution.

This is seriously why you think it was a good idea to pull the entire proposal? These are your reasons? These posts that have absolutely nothing to do with the reasons of the liberation at all?

So since saying "peepeepoopoo" now apparently equals Hitler, is anyone planning on resubmitting this?

I'm not going to speak for Star and could be wrong, but I don't think she believes that the RMB posts make you fascist. Personally I think she just thinks the RMB posts are a behavior that makes her not want to help out KReich through repealing the liberation, and that's totally valid, especially with this post coming from a Regional Officer.

If you want the liberation repeal gone so much, you're always welcome to write your own proposal.

[Makdon]

Not an ad hominiem, there bud, Several if not most of his WA badges come specifically from repeal, as a matter of fact I believe on the last one he pointed a problem just the day after one passed, and considering his consistent Region Sovereignty boasts, and apparent for Kreich to be liberated I would say that lack of surprise at his leaning wouldn't be that far fetched.

I am now forced to question whether you know what ad hominem means.

I respect her, but I do not respect this position she took, and being such a public figure on NS she should be open to criticism for it, but I do forget that you can't criticize anyone who involved with Defenderism. So I apologize to the community, I forgot such a crucial rule there.

Ah yes, the only reason people are coming to Kuriko's defense is because she's a defender, that's why Dakota, a member of TBH's council and current delegate of Osiris, is here doing just that. This may be the stupidest attempt at gotchaing you'e done yet.

[Honeydewistania]

That's a hell of an apology

[The New Texan Republic Of Dallas]

I guess I should have expected for sarcasm to go over your head, but real question since we're being so blunt.

But you know we could actually get back on topic, or in your case you could actually add to it for the first time?

And as for your second statement, I mean you are the one with a history of predatory repeals to add notches to your WA belt at the expense of the hard work of other in the NS community so, I suppose valid point, but there is also always the chance a second liberate would fail, one I'm not willing to take considereding Fascism's and Nazism's, awful nature, but you know if you want to give Fascists and Nazi's the benefit of the doubt be my guest, I wouldn't be surprised by you taking that stance.

Well, first time back on KR related forum thread.

It’s been 5 years, I have seen most of the argument being made and at this, I ask again, what were the original argument that the region of KR as a whole was Fascist or Nazi, I would understand if a a few members were outwardly and/or internally showing these tendencies or some members of authority but how did it manage to become that the region as whole, was branded as such that a repeal was needed?

I kindly ask you or should I rephrase this, why do you believe KR has or had a fascist or Nazi image and why do you believe that it would fall back into it if it had one in the past. Should the reasoning that It could happen be more important that seeing what it could become and work from there, see if it can change or if your idea of it doesn’t change then let your voice be heard, let us hear what you think is the problem, we have tried to change our public image for a long time.

We at first didn’t really mind the image as we were mostly a small community inside the region, our pass time was a Nation RP and that was what kept us happy, raiding was the normal thing by the time I joined as a NS game play choice and it seems to help make group coordination training. We played during Z-day and kept going along, most of the people back in the day stayed for the RP and the community friendly talk. We went through several internal problems but we came through, not because one person or a group or idea made it work but because a host of people with different personalities and ideas came together not wanting to lose this little home. We tended not to judge and we grew, the liberation kinda surprised me. Even after that we got new people and we kept growing not in size as region but in experience and in stories, anyone could find a place as long as you didn’t flame or didn’t try and or parade a radical, extreme or dangerous ideology or belief. But there will always be edgy people, those that try and be sly on discord or just be funny or cringe on the RMB.

What I try to show you and tell you is KR was, is and will continue to be a community, we try and grow and change and not to be hostile to others in a aggressive or malicious way , we don’t wish to create chaos and hate but be hopeful and kind in respect to others happiness, at least we try to be, we are human and may fail at times, we are individuals and not a collective no single person totally represent KR and if one person is being that way we try and sort it out, we try and change the liberation because we’re trying to show we didn’t mean for things to get this out of hand and requiring a liberation, we are try to change and Improve and o what we can to better our community, I have been here for 5 years and I have alway tried to keep KR United and try keep things civil when it called for civility, and I will continue to advocate for KR both internally and externally, if you have any questions, or wish to speak with me or talk about any mater regarding KR I’d be happy to listen to what you’d want to convey and speak to me about. Thank you if you read this, I just wrote this up so sorry if it’s sounds a bit poorly written my bad.

[A Bloodred Moon]

So since saying "peepeepoopoo" now apparently equals Hitler, is anyone planning on resubmitting this?

Go write your own. Nobody is obligated to write it for you, and Kuriko gets to decide what her proposals are used for. Criticising her for pulling a proposal she wrote because she doesn't believe in it is nonsense.

[Nova Vandalia]

Not an ad hominiem, there bud, Several if not most of his WA badges come specifically from repeal, as a matter of fact I believe on the last one he pointed a problem just the day after one passed, and considering his consistent Region Sovereignty boasts, and apparent for Kreich to be liberated I would say that lack of surprise at his leaning wouldn't be that far fetched.

I am now forced to question whether you know what ad hominem means.

I respect her, but I do not respect this position she took, and being such a public figure on NS she should be open to criticism for it, but I do forget that you can't criticize anyone who involved with Defenderism. So I apologize to the community, I forgot such a crucial rule there.

Ah yes, the only reason people are coming to Kuriko's defense is because she's a defender, that's why Dakota, a member of TBH's council and current delegate of Osiris, is here doing just that. This may be the stupidest attempt at gotchaing you'e done yet.

*shurgs* Look I don't agree with Dakota on a lot of things, and Dakota came to her defense in her being earnest, which I admitted after she added to her statement she was, my problem is after adding to her statement she openly admitted to not thoroughly research the region. Why do you all keep skipping over this fact? This is the actual thing at issue here, and neither on of you two have addressed it.

And yeah I admit my attack was ad hominem actually >.> I get fiesty, but I've seen his politics and I stand by my statement, but again as I've tried to several time this isn't about me and Honeydew. It's about this now pulled billed, in which again I'm saying yay for pulling, but really disappointed that it even was brought up.

[Great Algerstonia]

Hello everyone. First off, I'd like to say please do not take the stance of dictating if/when an author can pull their own proposal. It is the authors ultimate choice on whether or not to let their proposal go to vote after reaching quorum, not the choice of anyone else barring rules violations and mod removal.

Secondly, I was sound asleep when all this arguing was going on. As many know, I live on the East Coast of the US and cannot be awake at 4am to argue with people within the SC. There were concerning posts on the KREICH RMB, as well as concerning discord content that others found after joining their discord server. I'll link the posts, but will not copy the content to the forum.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41820030
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41812222
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41810226
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41810765
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41809853
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41809396


From someone outside the region:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=41809251

...what? Those aren't negative at all, those are just people fooling around

I've seen more immature jokes made by more popular people and nobody cared

[The New Texan Republic Of Dallas]

So since saying "peepeepoopoo" now apparently equals Hitler, is anyone planning on resubmitting this?

Go write your own. Nobody is obligated to write it for you, and Kuriko gets to decide what her proposals are used for. Criticising her for pulling a proposal she wrote because she doesn't believe in it is nonsense.

People are going to feel a bit betrayed but at the end of the day your right, it was her proposal and it’s under control what she gets to do. Guessing the one that’s aren’t happy are going after the semantics of why she pulled and scrutinizing that which is a bit unfair.

[Starfyre]

I'm not going to speak for Star and could be wrong, but I don't think she believes that the RMB posts make you fascist. Personally I think she just thinks the RMB posts are a behavior that makes her not want to help out KReich through repealing the liberation, and that's totally valid, especially with this post coming from a Regional Officer.

If you want the liberation repeal gone so much, you're always welcome to write your own proposal.

You're right on this Dakota, I don't want to help a region that acts the way they are acting.