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[submitted] Commend Valentine Z

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:00 pm

SherpDaWerp wrote:
There is no limit on co-authors, but a "reality-imposed limit" of 3 has been suggested.
EDIT: wait, one of the 4 listed is going to be the submitter, ignore that

Full support, same as for the last few iterations. I would also like a comment to be added to the Applauding clause, noting that Val made the full original spreadsheet of data publicly available for those wishing to do their own analysis; I've used it a couple times and it's so much nicer than having to spend days scraping the API myself. That said, I'll support this proposal in pretty much any form, so leaving that out is still OK especially given you're over the character limit.

Added this and tossed out some filler
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:48 pm

New Carthagea wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:what about congratulating her on her years of activity in the game and total posts in that time?

If you didn't know, it's a HE.


are u sure?!
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New Carthagea
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Postby New Carthagea » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:57 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
New Carthagea wrote:If you didn't know, it's a HE.


are u sure?!


search.php?keywords=valentine+z&t=333387&sf=msgonly

Also look at the last sentence of their OOC factbook.
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Nevertopia
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Postby Nevertopia » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:30 pm

New Carthagea wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
are u sure?!


search.php?keywords=valentine+z&t=333387&sf=msgonly

Also look at the last sentence of their OOC factbook.


YIKES.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:35 pm

Nevertopia wrote:
New Carthagea wrote:
search.php?keywords=valentine+z&t=333387&sf=msgonly

Also look at the last sentence of their OOC factbook.


YIKES.

Even then, gender pronouns aren't allowed in SC proposals.
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Boston Castle
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Postby Boston Castle » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:16 pm

I concur with Bhang Bhang Duc in part, this does need some pruning, but I think what would be best is actually organizing Val Z's accomplishments into certain areas (say: all tech, all gameplay, forums, etc.), it would make it much clearer in my opinion what you were commending him for then.
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Honeydewistania
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Postby Honeydewistania » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:04 am

Boston Castle wrote:I concur with Bhang Bhang Duc in part, this does need some pruning, but I think what would be best is actually organizing Val Z's accomplishments into certain areas (say: all tech, all gameplay, forums, etc.), it would make it much clearer in my opinion what you were commending him for then.

Some restructuring has taken place
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
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Boston Castle
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Postby Boston Castle » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:12 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
Boston Castle wrote:I concur with Bhang Bhang Duc in part, this does need some pruning, but I think what would be best is actually organizing Val Z's accomplishments into certain areas (say: all tech, all gameplay, forums, etc.), it would make it much clearer in my opinion what you were commending him for then.

Some restructuring has taken place

I think it's much, much easier to follow now. For.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:03 am

I got as far as the first three major clauses and then I gave up.

Affirming the mission of this Council to recognise nations who have made immense positive contributions to the international community, and believing that Valentine Z is one such nation,

Pleased that as a candidate for the 2020 WA Secretary-General election, Valentine Z joined forces with Atlantian Oceania and achieved fourth place, and that this pact between the two nations has been credited with forging unlikely alliances between many nations that last to this day,

So we’re commending a nation for coming fourth, not winning it, coming fourth.

Observing that in the The Free Nations Region, Valentine Z under the satellite state Vostrov served as Minister of Information and as a moderator of the region’s official communications channels, contributing to the distribution of crucial regional updates and the enforcement of proper conduct in communications media,

Basically acting as a good Regional Officer - of which there are thousands (including yours truly).

Further noting that Valentine Z has also published articles that distribute information to the public, notably a well-researched news bulletin that documented a recent thermonuclear war, granting many curious people access to a plethora of knowledge regarding the international event,

As did many other nations.

Scraping the barrel bottom a bit aren’t we?
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Destructive Government Economic System » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:20 am

A few edits seem to have been made by Honeydew, so I've bumped the thread for those who're interested
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Boston Castle
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Postby Boston Castle » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:43 pm

I would ask: is there a point to the “Praising” clause. I get that Val is nice and all and that’s great, but it does stand out in this resolution as not being as commend-worthy as the other clauses make Val out to be.

Tl;dr: I think the “Praising” clause may be a bit fluffy.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:16 am

I see this has been submitted - still think it's a bit of a mess and still would not support.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Westinor
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Postby Westinor » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:45 pm

Echoing BBD's comment above - I don't think this is in good shape yet.
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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:26 pm

Westinor wrote:Echoing BBD's comment above - I don't think this is in good shape yet.

It also has been in a dormant state for quite a while so some of the stuff may be inaccurate or outdated.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:32 am

It’s also been declared illegal - use of the word “moderator” is the reason given.

Back to the drawing board guys. It’ll be a quick fix, just delete the whole clause as it’s nothing but fluff anyway.
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Cavirfi
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Postby Cavirfi » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:35 am

He is definitely gonna appreciate this, and I feel like I deserve a Condemnation for making them feel uncomfortable recently. This has my approval.

Too bad, this is illegal
Last edited by Cavirfi on Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:41 am

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:It’s also been declared illegal - use of the word “moderator” is the reason given.

I don't agree that this breaks 2(a), as "moderator of the region’s official communications channels" does not necessarily refer to the game. If it can be interpreted in an in-character way -- that is, nations can (and IRL do) literally moderate, i.e. edit/censor to make it less harsh or severe, official communications -- then it should be legal. On the other hand, BBD is right, it's just fluff, and doesn't add much to the commendation.

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Eumaeus
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Postby Eumaeus » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:52 am

Wrapper wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:It’s also been declared illegal - use of the word “moderator” is the reason given.

I don't agree that this breaks 2(a), as "moderator of the region’s official communications channels" does not necessarily refer to the game. If it can be interpreted in an in-character way -- that is, nations can (and IRL do) literally moderate, i.e. edit/censor to make it less harsh or severe, official communications -- then it should be legal. On the other hand, BBD is right, it's just fluff, and doesn't add much to the commendation.

I agree with Wrapper on both counts. While there are other less suitable definitions that could arguably be applied, this use of 'moderator' is not inconsistent with the Merriam-Webster definition "one who arbitrates : MEDIATOR" or the Google Dictionary definition "an arbitrator or mediator", the latter of which has the uncannily relevant accompanying example of "Egypt managed to assert its role as a regional moderator". Using the same logic that "'player' referring to the person playing the game is illegal, but saying a nation is a 'major player' within a region is legal", I'm not seeing how this usage of the word violates Rule 2A.

On the other hand, I also agree with BBD and Wrapper that the clause this violation occurs in is mostly fluff that could apply to countless nations throughout NationStates. If the target has done an especially exemplary job or has done something unique in this position, the two variables I can think of that would justify including RO duties outside of a list of positions, it is not communicated.
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Postby Comfed » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:48 pm

I don’t think the term “moderator” is illegal.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
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Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:19 pm

Comfed wrote:I don’t think the term “moderator” is illegal.

I must admit it’s got me scratching my head. Sedge called it and then CG changed her mind about the legality of the proposal after discussions with the team. It’s down as an R2a violation and the only thing I can think of is that it’s being seen as “Personal”.

Anyone else want to take a guess?
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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.

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Outer Sparta
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Postby Outer Sparta » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:46 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Comfed wrote:I don’t think the term “moderator” is illegal.

I must admit it’s got me scratching my head. Sedge called it and then CG changed her mind about the legality of the proposal after discussions with the team. It’s down as an R2a violation and the only thing I can think of is that it’s being seen as “Personal”.

Anyone else want to take a guess?

I'm thinking it could have been interpreted as "site moderator" and somehow mentioning the word "moderator" goes against the legality of resolutions? I'm not too caught up on SC resolution rules so jargon and terminology like "moderator" goes over my head.
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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:28 pm

I too thought that in this particular context moderators would have been permissible.
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Postby Sedgistan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:01 pm

The three of us that normally rule on SC matters talked it over, and all felt it was a problem. I'm aware we've allowed terms like "administrator" before; the difference is that the term "moderator" feels like it cannot really refer to anything other than OOC player moderation, and while the usage in this proposal was relatively benign, I'm loathe to encourage further mention of moderation (and I'm not talking about NS site staff moderation here) within proposals, as that touches on a bucketload of stuff that doesn't feel appropriate for the SC.

We'll listen to opposing viewpoints here*; that decision is not necessarily set in stone.

*except for Wrapper's. I've got a dusty moth-ridden red jacket for you if you want your opinion to count :P

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Wed Mar 03, 2021 2:04 pm

Sedgistan wrote:The three of us that normally rule on SC matters talked it over, and all felt it was a problem. I'm aware we've allowed terms like "administrator" before; the difference is that the term "moderator" feels like it cannot really refer to anything other than OOC player moderation, and while the usage in this proposal was relatively benign, I'm loathe to encourage further mention of moderation (and I'm not talking about NS site staff moderation here) within proposals, as that touches on a bucketload of stuff that doesn't feel appropriate for the SC.

We'll listen to opposing viewpoints here*; that decision is not necessarily set in stone.

*except for Wrapper's. I've got a dusty moth-ridden red jacket for you if you want your opinion to count :P

Just to be clear, generally, is referring to moderation though some fancy wording not going to be permissible either going forward?
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:46 am

Sedgistan wrote:We'll listen to opposing viewpoints here*; that decision is not necessarily set in stone.

*except for Wrapper's. I've got a dusty moth-ridden red jacket for you if you want your opinion to count :P

You know what you can do with that red jacket? :p

I stand by my earlier statement that if it can be interpreted in a real world sense then it should be legal. I also think this isn't a hill to die on, as the proposal would be just fine without the line. As BBD said, it's "nothing but fluff anyway."

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