[PASSED] Liberate Syria

[Daytime to Night]

I'm really struggling to see the argument against here? (outside of the usual raider bloc antagonism)

Keeping it as a dead, inaccessible raider trophy is somehow better than giving it the chance of becoming a home for nations with a connection to the real life nation at some point in the future?

If it was a dead project that only had meaning for the previous natives that had long since abandoned it then I would understand. But that isn't the case here.

[WayNeacTia]

Because it's a region named after a real life location/nation.

And? Please tell me you have something a little more substantive than that?

It's the ~*concept*~ of the native that matters, not the actual natives themselves.

Anyways, Hydra seems to be more "native" than anyone else. Stop trying to take their region from them. It's not nice.

Agreed. It seems like 10K Islands now wants to use the Security Council to open up regions so they can invade them. Shame.

[Kuriko]

Because it's a region named after a real life location/nation.

And? Please tell me you have something a little more substantive than that?

It's the ~*concept*~ of the native that matters, not the actual natives themselves.

Anyways, Hydra seems to be more "native" than anyone else. Stop trying to take their region from them. It's not nice.

Agreed. It seems like 10K Islands now wants to use the Security Council to open up regions so they can invade them. Shame.

XKI doesn't invade regions Wayne, unless they're fascist/nazis or raider which everybody knows. We aren't raiders. Just because a region is dead it does not give raiders or anyone else the right to claim it as a trophy. Especially RL named regions.

[The Unified Missourtama States]

Regions named after real life locations are usually special. Most are taken by trophy collectors such as Macedon or Queens State, while a very few were able to survive and grow communities such as Australia, Canada, Belgium, Philippines, etc etc.

So it can be raided and taken as a trophy by someone else?

[Kuriko]

Regions named after real life locations are usually special. Most are taken by trophy collectors such as Macedon or Queens State, while a very few were able to survive and grow communities such as Australia, Canada, Belgium, Philippines, etc etc.

So it can be raided and taken as a trophy by someone else?

It wouldn't be turned into anyone's trophy, since a liberation would make it impossible.

[Kuriko]

It has come to our attention that the invader region, Hydra Main Command, is operated by none other than Alpha Wolf of The Wolf Clan. Looking at both the nation of Alpha Wolf and the nation of Hydra Wolf one would notice that the national animal and currency of both are the same.

Furthermore, looking at this dispatch from The Wolf Clan and this dispatch from Hydra Main Command you can see that they're virtually the same exact thing.

[Tinhampton]

So it can be raided and taken as a trophy by someone else?

It wouldn't be turned into anyone's trophy, since a liberation would make it impossible.

It is perfectly possible for a Liberated region to be refounded; Greece was refounded twice! by defenders despite never having its Liberation repealed. What makes you think that a Liberation would prevent Syria or any other founderless UCR from being refounded by raiders in similar circumstances?

[Kuriko]

It wouldn't be turned into anyone's trophy, since a liberation would make it impossible.

It is perfectly possible for a Liberated region to be refounded; Greece was refounded twice! by defenders despite never having its Liberation repealed. What makes you think that a Liberation would prevent Syria or any other founderless UCR from being refounded by raiders in similar circumstances?

That native with over 3,100 influence, plus the other 3 highest influence natives. It's hard to refound when you'll be watched.

[Aureumterra]

"Why does this small and insignificant region deserve the time of the esteemed security council at all?'

[Honeydewistania]

"Why does this small and insignificant region deserve the time of the esteemed security council at all?'

Or it'll be raided

[Twobagger]

I'm really struggling to see the argument against here? (outside of the usual raider bloc antagonism)

Keeping it as a dead, inaccessible raider trophy is somehow better than giving it the chance of becoming a home for nations with a connection to the real life nation at some point in the future?

If it was a dead project that only had meaning for the previous natives that had long since abandoned it then I would understand. But that isn't the case here.

I'd think it's supposed to be the other way around: the author is supposed to come up with good arguments to support their proposals.

In this case, it looks like there's no native support, no native community in place, and it looks like there were never even that many nations in the region. The main arguments seem to be:

• Raider bad
• The region is named after a real life location

I can see why you'd be struggling here, since these are the usual reasons pushed to support these kinds of proposals. But I'd usually expect defenders to at least try to clothe these arguments in some kind of respectability to make it seem like it's not just a naked, petty power play aimed at denying raiders a "win." That way, they can at least pretend to be advancing something that's in the World Assembly's interest, rather than just advancing the interests of defenders at large. This proposal doesn't even do that.

[WayNeacTia]

It is perfectly possible for a Liberated region to be refounded; Greece was refounded twice! by defenders despite never having its Liberation repealed. What makes you think that a Liberation would prevent Syria or any other founderless UCR from being refounded by raiders in similar circumstances?

That native with over 3,100 influence, plus the other 3 highest influence natives. It's hard to refound when you'll be watched.

Wait, wait, wait..... There are natives now? What happened to?

Good spot! I await native response

There's a very real likelihood that there won't be a reply. It seems the natives in the region are just puppets, and there's no telling if they're active enough to reply.

[Twobagger]

That native with over 3,100 influence, plus the other 3 highest influence natives. It's hard to refound when you'll be watched.

It's worth pointing out this post: Kuriko has submitted this to the World Assembly despite no native support and no attempt to draft on the forums. According to the post I've quoted, this region isn't in danger of being refounded any time soon, since the natives have way too much influence. If Kuriko cared about getting good feedback, getting native support, or about writing a good resolution, there would be no reason to rush this.

But it's been submitted literally a day and a half after the first post on the forums, despite the lack of an imminent refound threat, native support, or community input. This is a farce.

[WayNeacTia]

Noting that in this instance, as stated above, an innocent region is under threat of destruction after being passworded by a nation created for the sole purpose of violating the sovereignty of the regional community;

This screams of a 4(c) violation to me.

[Kuriko]

That native with over 3,100 influence, plus the other 3 highest influence natives. It's hard to refound when you'll be watched.

It's worth pointing out this post: Kuriko has submitted this to the World Assembly despite no native support and no attempt to draft on the forums. According to the post I've quoted, this region isn't in danger of being refounded any time soon, since the natives have way too much influence. If Kuriko cared about getting good feedback, getting native support, or about writing a good resolution, there would be no reason to rush this.

But it's been submitted literally a day and a half after the first post on the forums, despite the lack of an imminent refound threat, native support, or community input. This is a farce.

There was zero constructive feedback being given, and there was more than enough time to put up feedback on the draft. The longer we wait, the higher the likelihood they'll have allies pile it.

That native with over 3,100 influence, plus the other 3 highest influence natives. It's hard to refound when you'll be watched.

Wait, wait, wait..... There are natives now? What happened to?

There's a very real likelihood that there won't be a reply. It seems the natives in the region are just puppets, and there's no telling if they're active enough to reply.

I consider myself a native of the UDS, where I have a puppet. I also consider myself a native of FNR, where I have another puppet. I have no ill intentions towards these regions, like the native nations of Syria have no ill intentions towards their region. They are natives.

I'm really struggling to see the argument against here? (outside of the usual raider bloc antagonism)

Keeping it as a dead, inaccessible raider trophy is somehow better than giving it the chance of becoming a home for nations with a connection to the real life nation at some point in the future?

If it was a dead project that only had meaning for the previous natives that had long since abandoned it then I would understand. But that isn't the case here.

I'd think it's supposed to be the other way around: the author is supposed to come up with good arguments to support their proposals.

In this case, it looks like there's no native support, no native community in place, and it looks like there were never even that many nations in the region. The main arguments seem to be:

• Raider bad
• The region is named after a real life location

I can see why you'd be struggling here, since these are the usual reasons pushed to support these kinds of proposals. But I'd usually expect defenders to at least try to clothe these arguments in some kind of respectability to make it seem like it's not just a naked, petty power play aimed at denying raiders a "win." That way, they can at least pretend to be advancing something that's in the World Assembly's interest, rather than just advancing the interests of defenders at large. This proposal doesn't even do that.

Read the thread Twobagger, stop grand standing and trying to lie about our intentions.

[Kuriko]

Noting that in this instance, as stated above, an innocent region is under threat of destruction after being passworded by a nation created for the sole purpose of violating the sovereignty of the regional community;

This screams of a 4(c) violation to me.

Nations are created, or founded, they're words for the same thing. It should be legal.

[Makdon]

Noting that in this instance, as stated above, an innocent region is under threat of destruction after being passworded by a nation created for the sole purpose of violating the sovereignty of the regional community;

This screams of a 4(c) violation to me.

Nations can be IC created. It's a bit of an odd wording, but it wouldn't be necessarily wrong to say that. "cause (something) to happen as a result of one's actions." or "bring (something) into existence." both of which can be IC applied to nations

[WayNeacTia]

Noting that in this instance, as stated above, an innocent region is under threat of destruction after being passworded by a nation created for the sole purpose of violating the sovereignty of the regional community;

This screams of a 4(c) violation to me.

Nations are created, or founded, they're words for the same thing. It should be legal.

Context is key here.

[Sodoran Alesia]

It's worth pointing out this post: Kuriko has submitted this to the World Assembly despite no native support and no attempt to draft on the forums. According to the post I've quoted, this region isn't in danger of being refounded any time soon, since the natives have way too much influence. If Kuriko cared about getting good feedback, getting native support, or about writing a good resolution, there would be no reason to rush this.

But it's been submitted literally a day and a half after the first post on the forums, despite the lack of an imminent refound threat, native support, or community input. This is a farce.

There was zero constructive feedback being given, and there was more than enough time to put up feedback on the draft. The longer we wait, the higher the likelihood they'll have allies pile it.

So basically you can't answer the valid questions asked here like where is the native community to liberate and just want to hasten your "raider bad" agenda?

Wait, wait, wait..... There are natives now? What happened to?

I consider myself a native of the UDS, where I have a puppet. I also consider myself a native of FNR, where I have another puppet. I have no ill intentions towards these regions, like the native nations of Syria have no ill intentions towards their region. They are natives.

Who are natives? The aforementioned mostly inactive puppets? Using the word native doesn't make them native just because you think so.

I'd think it's supposed to be the other way around: the author is supposed to come up with good arguments to support their proposals.

In this case, it looks like there's no native support, no native community in place, and it looks like there were never even that many nations in the region. The main arguments seem to be:

• Raider bad
• The region is named after a real life location

I can see why you'd be struggling here, since these are the usual reasons pushed to support these kinds of proposals. But I'd usually expect defenders to at least try to clothe these arguments in some kind of respectability to make it seem like it's not just a naked, petty power play aimed at denying raiders a "win." That way, they can at least pretend to be advancing something that's in the World Assembly's interest, rather than just advancing the interests of defenders at large. This proposal doesn't even do that.

Read the thread Twobagger, stop grand standing and trying to lie about our intentions.

So when confronted with the obvious truth behind this proposal all you can do is wave it as a bad faith reply? Maybe if you could actually give some good reasons for why to liberate we wouldn't be at this point.

[Tinhampton]

Wait, wait, wait..... There are natives now? What happened to?

I consider myself a native of the UDS, where I have a puppet. I also consider myself a native of FNR, where I have another puppet. I have no ill intentions towards these regions, like the native nations of Syria have no ill intentions towards their region. They are natives.

The only native or ex-native you have announced your contact with in public is Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa. While she has expressed support for this Liberation (see the second-bottom post on Page 1), she has not resided in Syria for five years - I can accept your status as a current native of the UDS and FNR since your puppets are present in those regions right now, but I am not satisfied that Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa is a current native of Syria. Furthermore, I have not seen any comment from The USA, Al-Syria, Region of New Syria or Glesihastaire about the contents of this Liberation.

No support from affected natives = no support from Tinhampton

[Kuriko]

There was zero constructive feedback being given, and there was more than enough time to put up feedback on the draft. The longer we wait, the higher the likelihood they'll have allies pile it.

So basically you can't answer the valid questions asked here like where is the native community to liberate and just want to hasten your "raider bad" agenda?

I consider myself a native of the UDS, where I have a puppet. I also consider myself a native of FNR, where I have another puppet. I have no ill intentions towards these regions, like the native nations of Syria have no ill intentions towards their region. They are natives.

Who are natives? The aforementioned mostly inactive puppets? Using the word native doesn't make them native just because you think so.

Read the thread Twobagger, stop grand standing and trying to lie about our intentions.

So when confronted with the obvious truth behind this proposal all you can do is wave it as a bad faith reply? Maybe if you could actually give some good reasons for why to liberate we wouldn't be at this point.

The native population is the handful of the remaining nations that have been there for years, The USA in particular who was obviously active on the RMB at one point. This isn't just about them, it's also about keeping a region named after a real life nation from becoming an empty husk trophy region that will never have a native community. I've given my reasons for this proposal over and over again in this thread, if you decide to ignore them that's on you. Let's also not forget the fact that the one's holding it are possibly fascist sympathizers and OOC blacklisted players.

[Kuriko]

I consider myself a native of the UDS, where I have a puppet. I also consider myself a native of FNR, where I have another puppet. I have no ill intentions towards these regions, like the native nations of Syria have no ill intentions towards their region. They are natives.

The only native or ex-native you have announced your contact with in public is Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa. While she has expressed support for this Liberation (see the second-bottom post on Page 1), she has not resided in Syria for five years - I can accept your status as a current native of the UDS and FNR since your puppets are present in those regions right now, but I am not satisfied that Nomadic sister of shawnas north africa is a current native of Syria. Furthermore, I have not seen any comment from The USA, Al-Syria, Region of New Syria or Glesihastaire about the contents of this Liberation.

No support from affected natives = no support from Tinhampton

I've sent a telegram to The USA, I haven't heard back yet. Also, I called Shawnas a former native every time I brought them up here Tin.

[Twobagger]

The native population is the handful of the remaining nations that have been there for years, The USA in particular who was obviously active on the RMB at one point.

I was able to find exactly one post of theirs on the RMB, this one: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=3907531.

Are there more?

[WayNeacTia]

Let's also not forget the fact that the one's holding it are possibly fascist sympathizers and OOC blacklisted players.

This is what it has come to? Now you are going to try and spin this into an anti-fascist crusade? Do you have any proof whatsoever that the holding parties are fascist sympathizers or blacklisted players? Any at all?

[Honeydewistania]

Let's also not forget the fact that the one's holding it are possibly fascist sympathizers and OOC blacklisted players.

This is what it has come to? Now you are going to try and spin this into an anti-fascist crusade? Do you have any proof whatsoever that the holding parties are fascist sympathizers or blacklisted players? Any at all?

TWC are known for collaborating with fascist regions