[PASSED] Commend the Red Fleet

by **Drop Your Pants** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:04 am

I'm not up to date on my SC rules but is password allowed?

by **Sauros** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:07 am

I sincerely hope this comes to vote. While I may have disliked the repeal, it was good in opening up room for a better commendation resolution.
Maybe you should mention some of the controversial things TRF did, so that it doesn't necessarily seem like propoganda or gloating to people who would be stuck on how to vote on it?

by **Bhang Bhang Duc** » Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:43 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:I'm not up to date on my SC rules but is password allowed?

Yes, explicitly mentioned in the Compendium as legal.

by **West Leas Oros 2** » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:01 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Spode Humbled Minions wrote:It's been 18 years. I'd love for there to be no more fascists, Nazis, and those of their ilk on this site entirely, but that's just not happening.

In terms of this bill, there is one thing that I would like to address, and that's that bringing up REATO is an odd choice. I'm not well versed in the history involved here, but on first inspection, REACTO seems to have been a relatively benign organization, and the conflict mainly over gameplay related issues (raids against communist and socialist regions).

As brought up by Wayneactia, apparently in the course of the proceedings between The Red Fleet and REATO, some participants within The Red Fleet misbehaved in such manner as to become goosed upon. Seeing as the repeal of the currently standing commendation is in part built on the grounds of toxicity within the old organization, it seems inappropriate to celebrate an instance of toxicity the commendation's replacement.

All that said, I joined NationStates in 2016, and spent that year derping around and not actually paying much mind to the intricacies of interregional politics. These were the impressions I got by using Google for 15 minutes and not through deep political analysis.

REATO aggressively raided and refounded CAPS, and did it with no remorse. They were not benign.
The Reformed American Republic wrote:It's communist aggression cloaked under a good cause. The Red Fleet fights for communism and the fighting of fascists is just a means of achieving that. Nobody thinks of what happens when there are no longer any actual fascists to fight.

Not all TRFers are tankies, so that’s inaccurate.

I’ve made a few edits, such as toning down the language, and removing DSA and Trump Warriors. (No, it wasn’t because they were fascist or not fascist, but rather because I felt they were not noteworthy. Anyone who wants to see evidence of them being fascist/fascist sympathiser telegram me)

You’re right. I bet some of them are anarkiddies too.

by **Honeydewistania** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:22 pm

Sauros wrote:I sincerely hope this comes to vote. While I may have disliked the repeal, it was good in opening up room for a better commendation resolution.
Maybe you should mention some of the controversial things TRF did, so that it doesn't necessarily seem like propoganda or gloating to people who would be stuck on how to vote on it?

That doesn't seem wise - all their controversial stuff is covered in that repeal.

I made minor edits and will submit soon

by **SherpDaWerp** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:28 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:I made minor edits and will submit soon

Much better, from where I'm standing. The "smashing the dreams" part still seems a little out of line, but it's much better now that "pathetic" isn't thrown in there too. Tentative support, though I guess this is as moderate as the language is gonna get.

by **Honeydewistania** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:48 pm

SherpDaWerp wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:I made minor edits and will submit soon

Much better, from where I'm standing. The "smashing the dreams" part still seems a little out of line, but it's much better now that "pathetic" isn't thrown in there too. Tentative support, though I guess this is as moderate as the language is gonna get.

I also removed some adjectives, such as absolute and utter, although you probably noticed that already.

by **Refuge Isle** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:51 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:I made minor edits and will submit soon

Soon in this case meaning 45 minutes

by **Honeydewistania** » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:55 pm

Refuge Isle wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:I made minor edits and will submit soon

Soon in this case meaning 45 minutes

Pretty much. It was where it needed to be, and I reviewed the text to remove glaring issues.

by **Fauxia** » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:39 pm

Looks much better. I’m still not sure I’ll vote for, but I won’t fight strenuously against it.

by **The Stalker** » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:00 pm

Support.

by **Astrobolt** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:41 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Believing that The Red Fleet contributed to eliminating fascism and other hateful ideologies,

OOC: What does it mean by other hateful ideologies? Is it referring to racism, or something else?

by **Honeydewistania** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:27 pm

Astrobolt wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:
Believing that The Red Fleet contributed to eliminating fascism and other hateful ideologies,

OOC: What does it mean by other hateful ideologies? Is it referring to racism, or something else?

Racism, Nazism, White supremacy etc

by **Picairn** » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:20 pm

This is now at vote.

by **Aureumterra** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:57 am

OOC: While destroying fascist regions is a great thing, I can’t bring myself to vote for open communists…

by **Picairn** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:14 am

Aureumterra wrote:OOC: While destroying fascist regions is a great thing, I can’t bring myself to vote for open communists…

Destruction of fascist regions always gets a For vote from me, whether it comes from open communists or "decadent, imperialistic liberal democracies" - a communist, I think.

by **Kandorith** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:11 am

We fully support their fight against hateful ideologies yet there seems to be a very thin line nowadays that the support of the Red Fleet seems a hateful ideology.

Also considering their ideology and ours is rather at odds we will not vote for the proposal, yet we shall not vote against either.

by **Servilis** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:13 am

I support this, I alongside other Ministers have also encouraged TCB members to vote FOR this Commendation in full swing.

by **Norvew** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:56 am

II do not think it would be right to vote for the resolution to applaud communist regimes who were a part of the Red Fleet for many reasons. I don't think Nazi Germany or any nation apart of the Red Fleet were good nations with only the protection if the world against Nazi Germany in mind. I think that all regimes of such nature are bad. The communist regime of the Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis, and to support them would not be a good idea. Why not support the Allied fleet of democratic nations instead of the communists. That is just my perspective, and I hope that other WA delegates can see my side.

by **Marxist Germany** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:15 am

OOC: If The Red Fleet was indeed fighting against hateful ideologies, as they and this proposal claim, one would expect that they would also denounce communism, and ideology that has caused far more harm and destruction upon the human race than any other ideology except for fascism/nazism. It sounds to me like The Red Fleet uses the guise of "fighting hate ideology" as an excuse to purge political opponents from the site, hypocritically, a tactic used by the very people they claim to oppose. This resolution commends communists for successfully griefing hundreds of region, many of which were nothing more than roleplay regions.

Not only is this assembly commending raiders (nothing new here), but it is also commending people who follow an ideology just as hateful as fascism. This is a no-brainer against vote from me.

by **Sodoran Alesia** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:26 am

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: If The Red Fleet was indeed fighting against hateful ideologies, as they and this proposal claim, one would expect that they would also denounce communism, and ideology that has caused far more harm and destruction upon the human race than any other ideology except for fascism/nazism.

Really, do we have to get into this debate again? To be honest, this'll end up being a threadjack on rl ideologies that are bad. The essence is fascism is racist and hateful to the core while communism is not, it is the goal of reaching a classless, moneyless society. We can debate endlessly on the irl attempts and results (which western propaganda will have you believe were all bad) but at the end of the day communism is nothing like fascism.

It sounds to me like The Red Fleet uses the guise of "fighting hate ideology" as an excuse to purge political opponents from the site, hypocritically, a tactic used by the very people they claim to oppose. This resolution commends communists for successfully griefing hundreds of region, many of which were nothing more than roleplay regions.

A guise? So you don't think TRF took down real fascists? Do you have any proof that many of those regions were roleplay? And even then, friendly reminder CCD has for some time used "It's only roleplay!" to justify their support for fascism. IC can be and has been used to hide OOC support of fascism.

Not only is this assembly commending raiders (nothing new here), but it is also commending people who follow an ideology just as hateful as fascism. This is a no-brainer against vote from me.

Ah yes, more raider bad, what else can I expect from a XKI resident. Show me where communism is inherently hateful as I've said above.

Edit: Also TRF is an interregional military of pan-leftist regions, it's not strictly communist, or are you just lumping in anarchists and the like under communism?

by **Astrobolt** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 2:40 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: If The Red Fleet was indeed fighting against hateful ideologies, as they and this proposal claim, one would expect that they would also denounce communism, and ideology that has caused far more harm and destruction upon the human race than any other ideology except for fascism/nazism. It sounds to me like The Red Fleet uses the guise of "fighting hate ideology" as an excuse to purge political opponents from the site, hypocritically, a tactic used by the very people they claim to oppose. This resolution commends communists for successfully griefing hundreds of region, many of which were nothing more than roleplay regions.

Not only is this assembly commending raiders (nothing new here), but it is also commending people who follow an ideology just as hateful as fascism. This is a no-brainer against vote from me.

OOC: The problem isn't that the Red Fleet is communist (as much as I disagree with socialism and communism). Advocating for communism doesn't automatically cause people harm. Advocating for fascism is much more likely to cause someone harm. The issue I have with this proposal is that I am worried about whether the Red Fleet invades regions which are not harmful (not fascist/racist).

by **Honeydewistania** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:06 pm

Whatever, MG

by **Radicalania** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:05 pm

If TRF were being as militant and as Communist as folk are making out, it would have a lot more pro-capitalist regions under its belt (which honestly I'm all for, but theres a reason I'm not a General in any armies). As stands, theres always at least a reasonable link to Fascism, Racism etc. with their raids- and even the folk who don't like what they do can see where they're coming from when they hit their targets.

by **The Grand Imperial Reich** » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:02 pm

While I have my issues with communism as an ideology, and TRF has done many regrettable things in the past, I fully support this resolution. Fascism is one of the worst evils of mankind, and fighting against it is a just cause.

[PASSED] Commend the Red Fleet

Who is online