NationStates

Sail Nation wrote:Can the author of this proposal actually state the REAL intentions of this proposal. Jakker City has been very quiet when I've been posting about the intentions being more about raiding rather than stopping any promotion of fascism, even unintentional

I have gone into motives in multiple posts in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=37238234#p37238234 and viewtopic.php?p=37242928#p37242928

Jakker City wrote:

Sail Nation wrote:Can the author of this proposal actually state the REAL intentions of this proposal. Jakker City has been very quiet when I've been posting about the intentions being more about raiding rather than stopping any promotion of fascism, even unintentional

I have gone into motives in multiple posts in this thread: viewtopic.php?p=37238234#p37238234 and viewtopic.php?p=37242928#p37242928

Considering that, if a raid were to happen on The Embassy, will the raiding party do the semi-respectable thing of only closing embassies with regions with fascist tags and OOC fascist regions, or will they do what happened to SEC Fanatics (i.e. change WFE, close all embassies etc.)?

Sail Nation wrote:Can you explain your reasoning please?

You just have to spend 5 minutes on the embassy's page to see that they aren't fascists or promoting fascism.

Aurum Raider wrote:You have proven that you will not do the right thing on your own - instead of just closing the embassies and suppressing fascist RMB posts - you have a meek policy of trying to bury the message.

...You evidently felt that keeping the embassies open was wrong - you've gone ahead and closed them. Good on you.

It should not have taken bullying you with a WASC proposal to do it.

I did not at any point call them fascists, I accused them of being too wrapped up in defending their appearance of 'neutrality.' I suggest you leave your strawmen at the door.
They do not explicitly promote fascism, but by having embassies with fascist regions, and not closing embassies, they've provided them a platform.
If they will not close them on their own accord, yes, a liberation proposal and the threat of a raid is a very realpolitik way of handling things.

Evidently they have, so it's a moot point.

Team Leo wrote:They have done nothing wrong we all know that TBH wanna take the embassy as a trophy like you did to secfanatics.

For the sake of factuality, TBH has and had no interest in keeping SECFanatics as a trophy, as evidenced by their withdrawal from the region

Jakker City wrote:
Listen dude, you can say whatever you want about this proposal, but you've really done a poor job of representing The Embassy in this thread. First off, [...]

So I think we cleared up that first point.
I'm curious as to what your second point is?

Thanks,

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:

Jakker City wrote:
Listen dude, you can say whatever you want about this proposal, but you've really done a poor job of representing The Embassy in this thread. First off, [...]

So I think we cleared up that first point.
I'm curious as to what your second point is?

Thanks,

Lol I laid out various points in that post related to my overall argument, just didn't number it all. I have also laid out several solid points since. The overall point is that I am glad this proposal had such an impact on your region and holding you all to a higher standard. And shoutout to The Ambassador in the region who said this: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=39203061 Sounds like they know what's up

Jakker City wrote:

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:So I think we cleared up that first point.
I'm curious as to what your second point is?

Thanks,

Lol I laid out various points in that post related to my overall argument, just didn't number it all. I have also laid out several solid points since. The overall point is that I am glad this proposal had such an impact on your region and holding you all to a higher standard.

Sorry, I can be a bit slow sometimes. Could you help me out by numbering those points that show me doing a poor job of representing The Embassy? I only counted to one so far, which I already refuted.

Jakker City wrote:And shoutout to The Ambassador in the region who said this: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=39203061 Sounds like they know what's up

Sweeze & co have recently done an impressive series of tag raids. I think it's the first time in eighteen months that we've seen more embassies being actively closed than are being actively opened.

Aurum Raider wrote:Addressing this specifically - you are filtering out fascist regions to begin with, you have not been neutral from the outset. Instead you've been concerned with the optics of being neutral.

Yup. You get points for astuteness.

Aurum Raider wrote:You have proven that you will not do the right thing on your own - instead of just closing the embassies and suppressing fascist RMB posts - you have a meek policy of trying to bury the message.

That kind of depends on what you think the right thing is. It's fair to say that our views on what is "right" will vary from topic to topic.
I'm not a political expert, but I'm led to believe that the far right-wing has a core of nutters, and a periphery of people who have grievances (legitimate or perceived) that aren't getting addressed elsewhere. If that's true, then taking steps to remove the grievances helps remove the power of the right. My reasoning was as follows.
Suppressing posts makes the suppressed person feel aggrieved. If the person is a peripheral right winger, then suppression increases their sense of victimhood, and moves them further into the core, because the core will welcome them. Allowing them to express their opinion helps them feel heard. They feel better for getting it out, and should feel a little more embraced by the mainstream.
Suppressing a core right winger plays to their narrative. It gives them ammunition to tell the periphery that "our" voices are being suppressed, when really it's only the nutter's voice.

Aurum Raider wrote:Evidently, proposals like this are the only way to hold you to account. You evidently felt that keeping the embassies open was wrong - you've gone ahead and closed them. Good on you.

It should not have taken bullying you with a WASC proposal to do it.

Not quite. If Jakker had tried dialogue instead of bullying, he'd have been amazed at how ready we were to be engaged in this conversation. Internally, we've been getting nudged in this direction by one of our members for some time.
Sadly, Jakker had no real interest in our stance on fascism. He just wanted another raid opportunity. This proposal was bullshit. He was too lazy even to pull together a proper list of "fascist" regions. This is evidenced by the inclusion of KAISERREICH, whose WFE reads:
"Notice: Fascism is Strictly Prohibited #BASHTHEFASH
Happy Pride Month!!"

Our change in policy follows a conversation with Vippertooth33. To be fair, Vippertooth would not have got in touch without having seen this proposal. We can credit Jakker for that introduction, but little else.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:

Jakker City wrote:
Lol I laid out various points in that post related to my overall argument, just didn't number it all. I have also laid out several solid points since. The overall point is that I am glad this proposal had such an impact on your region and holding you all to a higher standard.

Sorry, I can be a bit slow sometimes. Could you help me out by numbering those points that show me doing a poor job of representing The Embassy? I only counted to one so far, which I already refuted.

I appreciate your commitment to trying to save face and come out on top here.

I'm sure you are more than capable of walking through your own post: viewtopic.php?p=37249176#p37249176 and analyzing your attempt to come off like this proposal meant nothing and was a waste...and how you are going to change things because of the conversation this proposal started. Listen, I get it. It's not fun being called out, but trying to arrogantly say how this proposal was a joke yet also influenced steps towards where the region is now just isn't a good look *shrugs*

The Ambassadors Reception wrote: Not quite. If Jakker had tried dialogue instead of bullying, he'd have been amazed at how ready we were to be engaged in this conversation. Internally, we've been getting nudged in this direction by one of our members for some time.
Sadly, Jakker had no real interest in our stance on fascism. He just wanted another raid opportunity. This proposal was bullshit. He was too lazy even to pull together a proper list of "fascist" regions. This is evidenced by the inclusion of KAISERREICH, whose WFE reads:
"Notice: Fascism is Strictly Prohibited #BASHTHEFASH
Happy Pride Month!!"

Our change in policy follows a conversation with Vippertooth33. To be fair, Vippertooth would not have got in touch without having seen this proposal. We can credit Jakker for that introduction, but little else.

As for your mention of KAISERREICH, I would encourage you to review their Liberation proposal. They have a history of deceiving others with their policies and practices to hide their fascism. While it looks like they may have finally taken a turn, it is understandable to be skeptical of their new approach for some time.

And also "getting nudged" clearly doesn't mean any action was going to happen. It was clear when I briefly brought it up to you before I made this proposal, it was not really something you had considered before.

Where people potentially bringing it up before? Possibly.
Where people trying to avoid establishing future embassies with fascist regions? Maybe.
Was The Embassy doing anything about current long-standing embassies with fascist regions and their fascist tag? No.
Would they have done something if it wasn't for this proposal? Time and time again, you are proving no. So yeah if that doesn't outline things out for you clearly enough, there is not much else I can do for you.
Can't expect me to hold your region accountable AND save your ego. I'm not a miracle worker.

Seriously Jakker, help me out.

I counted 6 people coming out in favour of the proposal before my post changing our policy. I counted 17 against.

I managed to count 88 fascist embassies where as you miscounted 12.

But I can only count one thing that you named as me doing a poor job of representing The Embassy. And we've already resolved that one.

Your proposal was a dead duck. The steps I've taken far exceed what you were asking for in your proposal. I'm impressed that your ego lets you think that I'd go this far because of you.

Doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere here As I have said before, I'm happy that this proposal was successful and helped lead the region towards crafting some solid change.

Sail Nation wrote:Considering that, if a raid were to happen on The Embassy, will the raiding party do the semi-respectable thing of only closing embassies with regions with fascist tags and OOC fascist regions, or will they do what happened to SEC Fanatics (i.e. change WFE, close all embassies etc.)?

Have you met The Black Hawks before? They'll close all the embassies and Jakker will be a Regional Officer helping them do it.

Jakker City wrote:Doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere here As I have said before, I'm happy that this proposal was successful and helped lead the region towards crafting some solid change.

What utter shite. You don't care about another's regional change you only care about your own and the glory you can bring to it. This has never been about helping others. Only your own. And from a forum mod, that's sad to see.

Drop Your Pants wrote:

Jakker City wrote:Doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere here As I have said before, I'm happy that this proposal was successful and helped lead the region towards crafting some solid change.

What utter shite. You don't care about another's regional change you only care about your own and the glory you can bring to it. This has never been about helping others. Only your own. And from a forum mod, that's sad to see.

Contrary to popular belief, I am capable of and do care about both And I'm not sure what my status as a forum moderator has to do with it, but you or anyone else are always welcomed to submit a GHR if you ever feel like additional conversations are needed regarding the role.

While Jakker City may see this as a win for themselves as the proposal has had the 'desired effect', if this proposal will never be submitted, I see this as a win for The Embassy's community and NS as a whole. If we've managed to stop this going through, then we have prevented a raid that would destroy a great part of the NS community where nations from around NS come together in one RMB and community.

Jakker City wrote:Doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere here As I have said before, I'm happy that this proposal was successful and helped lead the region towards crafting some solid change.

To be really honest, all you did was threaten the Embassy with attacks. You were not the one who 'convinced' the Embassy to withdraw fascist embassies, rather alerted people like Vippertooth who actually came to an agreement with the officers in the Embassy. So you can add 'I was the one who threatened the Embassy and as a result forced others to talk to them about closing fascist embassies' to your forum sig

Drop Your Pants wrote:What utter shite. You don't care about another's regional change you only care about your own and the glory you can bring to it. This has never been about helping others. Only your own. And from a forum mod, that's sad to see.

Jakker's role as a Forum Mod has nothing to do with this. He can play the game as he likes, so long as his two roles are kept separate, which he's doing here. I'm wholly against this proposal, but I've seen nothing to suggest Jakker is acting inappropriately.

A mod doing something controversial in gameplay is hardly new. In fact, it seems to be a trend, as seen in myself, CG and Mall back when we were Forum Mods.

Jakker City wrote:1:Where people potentially bringing it up before?

2:Where people trying to avoid establishing future embassies with fascist regions?

3:Was The Embassy doing anything about current long-standing embassies with fascist regions and their fascist tag?

4:Would they have done something if it wasn't for this proposal? Time and time again, you are proving no. So yeah if that doesn't outline things out for you clearly enough, there is not much else I can do for you.

1:nowhere
2:I am not trying to avoid establishing an embassy with fascist regions.
3:There is no difference between fascist and non-fascist embassies.
4:The only reason they accepted this is because they are afraid. That is why it is not a victory.

In essence, your victory is not a victory because they have no founders. If they had a founder and you succeeded with this proposal in that circumstance, it would be a victory. Seen from my side, if you had asked for it from my region and if you had succeeded, it would have been a victory. But if you asked me to withdraw embassies with fascist regions, I would laugh sweetly at that and ignore you. That is why this so-called victory of yours is not a victory.

This is a great victory for justice, for liberalism! Congratulations to the moderator Jakker for forcing the Embassy to renounce the evil doctrine of fascism! It gives me hope to see that people in positions of power are fighting for and care about the greater good. Truly, the Embassy was a menace that needed to be stopped: if those embassies were allowed to remain open, who knows how many countless impressionable young minds could have been indoctrinated into white supremacist and authoritarian thinking through the platform and legitimacy that an embassy provides? But we must not rest on our laurels. We must continue to sniff out and snuff fascism in all corners of this game and in our real-life societies! We will not stop until there are no more fascists; I see them everywhere! If you are a fascist, you will be made to think correctly and you will like it.

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Seriously Jakker, help me out.

I counted 6 people coming out in favour of the proposal before my post changing our policy. I counted 17 against.

I managed to count 88 fascist embassies where as you miscounted 12.

But I can only count one thing that you named as me doing a poor job of representing The Embassy. And we've already resolved that one.

Your proposal was a dead duck. The steps I've taken far exceed what you were asking for in your proposal. I'm impressed that your ego lets you think that I'd go this far because of you.

A much better measurement of support would be to count the WA votes that each supporter and opponent of the resolution had. Of course, that wouldn't have fit your narrative.

I will say it's rather concerning that you were so easily aware of so many fascist regions that you were embassied to. Jakker didn't miscount, only undercounted. All Jakker had to do was establish sufficient fascist regions embassied to your region—which he did.

The narrative that just because the proposal did not pass (much less even be submitted) that Jakker did not achieve his goals is false. Other recent examples of proposals not passing yet accomplishing their goals are when I submitted a proposal to liberate a fascist region, they attempted to refound the region but the refounding was intercepted by the NPA and when TBH was going to grief Asia, Kuriko stopped them and they left because she wrote a liberation proposal. Given the embassies are closed, I think this resolution did its job.

Bro Jakker your just beating a dead horse at this point. This proposal will NOT pass. Why bother?

Black Hawks Matter wrote:This is a great victory for justice, for liberalism! Congratulations to the moderator Jakker for forcing the Embassy to renounce the evil doctrine of fascism! It gives me hope to see that people in positions of power are fighting for and care about the greater good. Truly, the Embassy was a menace that needed to be stopped: if those embassies were allowed to remain open, who knows how many countless impressionable young minds could have been indoctrinated into white supremacist and authoritarian thinking through the platform and legitimacy that an embassy provides? But we must not rest on our laurels. We must continue to sniff out and snuff fascism in all corners of this game and in our real-life societies! We will not stop until there are no more fascists; I see them everywhere! If you are a fascist, you will be made to think correctly and you will like it.

A victory, yes. But probably not for liberalism. Also, since the RMB was not that active, I doubt the indoctrination of anyone was prevented here.

Team Leo wrote:Bro Jakker your just beating a dead horse at this point. This proposal will NOT pass. Why bother?

Have you bothered reading any of this thread? The draft has done its job without the need for submitting etc. Do try and keep up.

Nice work Jakker

Praeceps wrote: when TBH was going to grief Asia, Kuriko stopped them and they left because she wrote a liberation proposal

As false as ever

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

Black Hawks Matter wrote:This is a great victory for justice, for liberalism! Congratulations to the moderator Jakker for forcing the Embassy to renounce the evil doctrine of fascism! It gives me hope to see that people in positions of power are fighting for and care about the greater good. Truly, the Embassy was a menace that needed to be stopped: if those embassies were allowed to remain open, who knows how many countless impressionable young minds could have been indoctrinated into white supremacist and authoritarian thinking through the platform and legitimacy that an embassy provides? But we must not rest on our laurels. We must continue to sniff out and snuff fascism in all corners of this game and in our real-life societies! We will not stop until there are no more fascists; I see them everywhere! If you are a fascist, you will be made to think correctly and you will like it.

A victory, yes. But probably not for liberalism. Also, since the RMB was not that active, I doubt the indoctrination of anyone was prevented here.

Liberalism is the ideology that espouses only what is correct, and since it is correct to oppose fascism, this is a victory for liberalism. Despite the inactivity of the Embassy's RMB, it remains a possibility that indoctrination into fascism could happen there because it is a working platform of communication. Where there is an avenue for communication, there is an avenue for fascism to spread. Thus, fascists must not be allowed access to platforms of communication wherever possible. Look at Nazi Germany. Someone gave Hitler a platform to speak and spread his vile and evil ideas, and look what happened. Never forget. We must not allow this to happen again. Fight fascism wherever it sprouts!

Lord Dominator wrote:Nice work Jakker

Praeceps wrote: when TBH was going to grief Asia, Kuriko stopped them and they left because she wrote a liberation proposal

As false as ever

I myself have never seen the Hawks shy away from invading a region simply because someone has a liberation proposal ready to go. Also I somehow doubt the Hawks were going to "grief" Asia.

Black Hawks Matter wrote:Given the circumstances of the world today, we must take a stand against all those who support fascism. This means that we must destroy the Embassy because it is a fascist region that promotes racist ideology with their embassies. By acting now in this game against that region, we will be able to stop genocide and totalitarianism from happening in the real world. Look what happened during the Holocaust. If NS players of that time stood up against fascist players, the terrible events of that time would have been prevented. The stakes are very high. The next Hitler could be indoctrinated right now through the Embassy, and if we don't act now, there will be consequences. This is serious business. Fascism in NS is no laughing matter, and we must crush those who associate with fascists as much as we crush fascists themselves. You are either with us or against us: you either support the Embassy, fascism, racism, and genocide or you support justice. To put it in starker terms, you are a fascist if you don't support this proposal, or you are a good person if you support destroying the Embassy and helping rid the world of fascism and genocide. Real world lives are at stake here. People will die because of fascism if the Embassy is not destroyed and if we don't fight fascism in this online game, through which future Hitlers are created.

Firts of all how and when has TE shown nazism or fascism. I have checked there RMB like 4 times and I saw nothing discriminative. so how EXACTLY would you prove it. And I know that even if someone said something discriminative I know TE would take action and ban the discriminator or whatever