[Abandoned-Mission Accomplished] Liberate The Embassy

[Team Leo]

Jakker what eaxctly is the point of this proposal. Lets look at the facts

-The embassy is closing of embassies with fascist/nazi regions with either the fascism tag or OOC fascism

-The embassy has gotten rid of the fascism tag

Jakker we all know the real reason you wanna liberate the embassy is to take it as a trophy like you did to SECFanatics. There is no more excuses to leiberate the embassy. Even so this proposal will NOT pass so stop trying

[WayNeacTia]

-snip-

It is very apparent you didn't bother to take the five minutes to read through the thread before spouting off. If you actually take the time to read, you will note that Jakker has made it clear that he isn't going to submit. Also, you seem to have an inordinate amount of knowledge for a nation that is so very new and with so very few forum posts. Perhaps you could do us all a favor and post from your main next time, instead of hiding behind such an obvious puppet.

[Honeydewistania]

-snip-

It is very apparent you didn't bother to take the five minutes to read through the thread before spouting off. If you actually take the time to read, you will note that Jakker has made it clear that he isn't going to submit. Also, you seem to have an inordinate amount of knowledge for a nation that is so very new and with so very few forum posts. Perhaps you could do us all a favor and post from your main next time, instead of hiding behind such an obvious puppet.

Their main is Leo Valdez

[The Ambassadors Reception]

Praeceps, three pages back, I announced that we were changing policy, and actively closing embassies tagged fascist. I'm unclear as to what you are hoping to gain here by continuing to post on this thread.

A much better measurement of support would be to count the WA votes that each supporter and opponent of the resolution had. Of course, that wouldn't have fit your narrative.

Since you're apparently too lazy to do that analysis yourself, let me help you out. Let's look just at the delegates and potential delegates to save time.

Jakker could collect additional votes in favour if he became point on a pile

McMasterdonia, who expressed support for the proposal, technically has 1282 votes. I'm not too familiar with TNP rules, but from this, it seems the delegate votes are typically cast in accordance with the majority of TNP voters. I don't know which way they would vote. The legally elected delegate is allowed to contradict the TNP voters. However, as I understand it, Prydania is the delegate elect, and we haven't heard their opinion here. So there is an element of doubt as to which way these votes would be cast.

Similarly, I believe Kuriko's 776 votes are cast in accordance with democratic principles, and so cannot be relied on as a vote against.

I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.

Vippertooth currently heads a pile of 37 votes, but some of these appear to be from TNP, so again, it's difficult to call, despite Vippertooth having brokered a deal.

And then there is Sail Nation with 9 votes.

So unfortunately, no, counting the WA votes of each supporter and opponent adds no clarity to the situation, and is not a much better measurement of support.

I will say it's rather concerning that you were so easily aware of so many fascist regions that you were embassied to.

Could you better express exactly what your concern is here?
Are you concerned that someone who can write a script that identifies all 'new' regions that are not tagged 'fascist' is also able to analyse which of their embassies are tagged fascist? That makes no sense to me.

Jakker didn't miscount, only undercounted.

Jakker counted 12 fascist embassies, one of which clearly states on it's WFE that it has an anti-fascist stance. That is miscounting.
If I have 11 apples and an orange, and tell you I have 12 apples, then I am miscounting the number of apples.

All Jakker had to do was establish sufficient fascist regions embassied to your region—which he did.

No. If we had closed those 12 embassies (one unjustifiably), presumably this proposal should have gone away. That would have left us still carrying a large number of fascist embassies, which would defeat the ostensible purpose of this proposal. If an action like this is to be effective, it should be done properly. I'll expand on that point in a telegram.

The narrative that just because the proposal did not pass (much less even be submitted) that Jakker did not achieve his goals is false.

Unless Jakker's goal was to fool you into thinking he was motivated by anti-fascism, I think DYP expressed it most eloquently:

What utter shite.

Given the embassies are closed,

Nope. We maintain our embassy with KAISERREICH.

I think this resolution did its job.

See DYP quote above.

[Jar Wattinree]

I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.

Ransium votes in accordance with the majority of Forest. Typically speaking, Forest doesn't usually concern itself with the SC, with few exceptions. Lord Dominator can give you a better statistic than I.

[Sail Nation]

My original voting policy was to vote with the majority of Lorania, until we had a slump in WA activity, even in WA nations that are generally active. I changed my policy to voting as I see fit, but letting the rest of the region vote as they want (while doing a TRR-style Pros and Cons post but on the RMB, I did it before they started I think). I would definitely vote against this, but now I don't think the likelihood of it being submitted, let alone a vote is high at all.

[Aurum Raider]

Could you better express exactly what your concern is here?
Are you concerned that someone who can write a script that identifies all 'new' regions that are not tagged 'fascist' is also able to analyse which of their embassies are tagged fascist? That makes no sense to me.

The concern is you literally knew you had fascist embassies open, exactly how many, who they were, and didn't do anything about it.
Something you seem to have a lot of trouble grasping is that a lot of NS' gameplayers are very openly actively anti-fascist. Raiders, defenders, and GCR militaries will happily put aside practically anything to raze a fascist region to bedrock.

While your embassy policy is appeasement (which - by the way, 1939 called and wants to let you know doesn't work), the majority people condemning you here don't care about the fascists complaints whatsoever, and are more than happy to make victims out of them.

Other regions - while under far more scrutiny than you - are constantly criticized for having fascist embassies open. Why on earth did you think you'd escape the exact same criticism just because you have 4,000 more embassies than them?

[Black Hawks Matter]

Firts of all how and when has TE shown nazism or fascism. I have checked there RMB like 4 times and I saw nothing discriminative. so how EXACTLY would you prove it. And I know that even if someone said something discriminative I know TE would take action and ban the discriminator or whatever

As said in the proposal, the region the Embassy has embassies open with fascist regions. Thus, due to guilt by association, it follows that the Embassy must pay for having diplomatic relations with fascists and giving said fascists legitimacy and an platform to spread their hate through the Embassy's RMB. Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more), the potential of there being a fascist post in the future justifies the actions taken against the Embassy. We cannot let the fascists just be. The threat of fascist indoctrination through this online game is just too high, and we can't let indoctrination happen. That's what I was told. As has been already brought up more than once in this thread, look at history. The Nazis could not have done what they did if good people just stepped in and stopped it. The same must be done to the Embassy and other fascistic elements in NS before it escalates into something worse. The potential for that is always there, so we must always be vigilant and proactive.

[Lord Dominator]

I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.

Ransium votes in accordance with the majority of Forest. Typically speaking, Forest doesn't usually concern itself with the SC, with few exceptions. Lord Dominator can give you a better statistic than I.

Not much more statistic than that, except that voting usually happens a couple days in, to allow time for WA residents to vote.

[Jakker City]

With the embassies now closed, I have marked the thread header to make it clearer that this will not be pursued further at this time. Congrats all!

[The Ambassadors Reception]

With the embassies now closed, I have marked the thread header to make it clearer that this will not be pursued further at this time. Congrats all!

LMAO!

That was a clever move. Points to you.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

-snip-

It is very apparent you didn't bother to take the five minutes to read through the thread before spouting off. If you actually take the time to read, you will note that Jakker has made it clear that he isn't going to submit. Also, you seem to have an inordinate amount of knowledge for a nation that is so very new and with so very few forum posts. Perhaps you could do us all a favor and post from your main next time, instead of hiding behind such an obvious puppet.

You’ve really overestimated this one Wayne.

P.S. Nice work Jakker.

[Marxist Germany]

Firts of all how and when has TE shown nazism or fascism. I have checked there RMB like 4 times and I saw nothing discriminative. so how EXACTLY would you prove it. And I know that even if someone said something discriminative I know TE would take action and ban the discriminator or whatever

As said in the proposal, the region the Embassy has embassies open with fascist regions. Thus, due to guilt by association, it follows that the Embassy must pay for having diplomatic relations with fascists and giving said fascists legitimacy and an platform to spread their hate through the Embassy's RMB. Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more), the potential of there being a fascist post in the future justifies the actions taken against the Embassy. We cannot let the fascists just be. The threat of fascist indoctrination through this online game is just too high, and we can't let indoctrination happen. That's what I was told. As has been already brought up more than once in this thread, look at history. The Nazis could not have done what they did if good people just stepped in and stopped it. The same must be done to the Embassy and other fascistic elements in NS before it escalates into something worse. The potential for that is always there, so we must always be vigilant and proactive.

OOC: "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he has to say" -George Martin.

The logical gymnastics you're playing to come to the conclusion that fascist embassies = the next hitler is astonishing. Furthermore, guilt by association is a logical fallacy, not a sound argument.

[The Ambassadors Reception]

Jar Wattinree , Sail Nation, thanks for clarifying those policies.

The concern is you literally knew you had fascist embassies open, exactly how many, who they were, and didn't do anything about it.

The question was addressed to Praeceps, but since you say you had similar concerns, I'll try to address those too. I'm sure I mentioned earlier that I was of the opinion that I didn't need to do anything - they were managing to CTE without my interference.

Something you seem to have a lot of trouble grasping is that a lot of NS' gameplayers are very openly actively anti-fascist. Raiders, defenders, and GCR militaries will happily put aside practically anything to raze a fascist region to bedrock.

No, that's something I grasped long ago. I also grasped that there are a lot of people in this game that have no interest whatsoever in military gameplay.
If you want to play at being soldiers, on you go. Whatever keeps you happy. But recognise that this isn't 1940's Europe. It's a browser game.
Europe is of finite size. When the Allies and Red Army were racing towards Berlin, there was physically nowhere for the Nazis to run. When Nazis were shot down, they were literally shot. They didn't get up again.
In NationStates, we can create new nations and new regions in a matter of minutes. There will never be an equivalent of a race to Berlin.
Here, the only way you can shoot Nazis down is when they're too stupid to log in, or to set their delegacy to non-executive.
Other than learning to log in every 28 days, what do you think fascists learn from these raids? Do you think you change their opinions? Do you believe they become better people because of it? Do you believe they go away?

While your embassy policy is appeasement (which - by the way, 1939 called and wants to let you know doesn't work)

Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more)

Black Hawks Matter makes light of the situation (thank you for bringing humour to the thread, it has been highly entertaining), but there is truth in this. For the 21 or so months that I have been in the embassy, almost all the RMB posts have been inane chat. If you can link a post where I agree to concede Sudetenland to a fascist, please share.
I have had more conversations with fascists in the past few days than I did in the previous 21 months. I contacted about 80 of the 88 embassies before I closed them, politely explaining my reasons for closing. You would probably consider my approach as appeasement. Seven of those embassies chose to remove the tag. It's not a huge success story, but it's a small step that evidences that people are open to change if you engage in dialogue.

the majority people condemning you here don't care about the fascists complaints whatsoever, and are more than happy to make victims out of them.

That's kind of evident. It's also quite evident that some of the people against this proposal also don't care about the fascists complaints whatsoever, and are more than happy to make victims out of them.

Other regions - while under far more scrutiny than you - are constantly criticized for having fascist embassies open.

This is true. I see "anti-fascists" bumping those "fascist" embassy threads up the Gameplay forum by constantly bickering, giving them free publicity, and a prime spot from which to voice their opinions to the entirety of NationStates.
I suspect you'd do far more for the anti-fascist cause by asking those players not to post on fascist threads, rather than trying to destroy a space where fascists rarely post.

Why on earth did you think you'd escape the exact same criticism just because you have 4,000 more embassies than them?

What makes you think I did? What amazes me is that in the past 21 months, the people who claim to care so much about this never tried to engage me in dialogue about this. All of a sudden, after TBH raid SECFanatics, there's an interest in my stance on fascism? Sorry, but that's a bit pathetic.

If you really want to fight fascism on the internet, recognise that you win by dialogue and persuasion, not petty point scoring. It's not about winning executive delegacies. It's about winning hearts and minds.

[Praeceps]

Nice work Jakker

when TBH was going to grief Asia, Kuriko stopped them and they left because she wrote a liberation proposal

As false as ever

Nice work Jakker

As false as ever

I myself have never seen the Hawks shy away from invading a region simply because someone has a liberation proposal ready to go. Also I somehow doubt the Hawks were going to "grief" Asia.

I apologize, I was wrong. TBH wasn't going to grief Asia, they were in the process of doing so. That's really not the point of my argument which is that liberations can do their job without passing...

Praeceps, three pages back, I announced that we were changing policy, and actively closing embassies tagged fascist. I'm unclear as to what you are hoping to gain here by continuing to post on this thread.

The same could very well be said to you. I'm just clearing up some false statements that were made.

A much better measurement of support would be to count the WA votes that each supporter and opponent of the resolution had. Of course, that wouldn't have fit your narrative.

Since you're apparently too lazy to do that analysis yourself, let me help you out. Let's look just at the delegates and potential delegates to save time.

Jakker could collect additional votes in favour if he became point on a pile

McMasterdonia, who expressed support for the proposal, technically has 1282 votes. I'm not too familiar with TNP rules, but from this, it seems the delegate votes are typically cast in accordance with the majority of TNP voters. I don't know which way they would vote. The legally elected delegate is allowed to contradict the TNP voters. However, as I understand it, Prydania is the delegate elect, and we haven't heard their opinion here. So there is an element of doubt as to which way these votes would be cast.

Similarly, I believe Kuriko's 776 votes are cast in accordance with democratic principles, and so cannot be relied on as a vote against.

I'm unfamiliar with Forest's voting practices, so am unable to say what happens with Ransium's 101 votes.

Vippertooth currently heads a pile of 37 votes, but some of these appear to be from TNP, so again, it's difficult to call, despite Vippertooth having brokered a deal.

And then there is Sail Nation with 9 votes.

So unfortunately, no, counting the WA votes of each supporter and opponent adds no clarity to the situation, and is not a much better measurement of support.

Ah, yes, I'm too "lazy" to do the analysis. Or maybe I already did?

You're going off on what might happen compared to what should happen. You should have noticed during your research that McMasterdonia is also the Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The North Pacific and decides (with the Delegate) the recommendation of the government. Since apparently I'm too lazy to do any analysis, how about you go take a look and find out how frequently that the Delegate ended up voting contrary to the recommendation of the region?

I will say it's rather concerning that you were so easily aware of so many fascist regions that you were embassied to.

Could you better express exactly what your concern is here?
Are you concerned that someone who can write a script that identifies all 'new' regions that are not tagged 'fascist' is also able to analyse which of their embassies are tagged fascist? That makes no sense to me.

The concern was how you knew there were so many fascist embassies and found them so easily. o.O

Jakker didn't miscount, only undercounted.

Jakker counted 12 fascist embassies, one of which clearly states on it's WFE that it has an anti-fascist stance. That is miscounting.
If I have 11 apples and an orange, and tell you I have 12 apples, then I am miscounting the number of apples.

Perhaps you should read what Jakker wrote. He explicitly listed "some of". That literally implies that his list is not exhaustive. It seems you may have misread that part.

All Jakker had to do was establish sufficient fascist regions embassied to your region—which he did.

No. If we had closed those 12 embassies (one unjustifiably), presumably this proposal should have gone away. That would have left us still carrying a large number of fascist embassies, which would defeat the ostensible purpose of this proposal. If an action like this is to be effective, it should be done properly. I'll expand on that point in a telegram.

Jakker may or may not have had more fascist embassies that he was aware of but did not bother to list. At the end of the day, any fascist embassies you held would be pointed out.

The narrative that just because the proposal did not pass (much less even be submitted) that Jakker did not achieve his goals is false.

Unless Jakker's goal was to fool you into thinking he was motivated by anti-fascism, I think DYP expressed it most eloquently:

What utter shite.

Well, if that's the case, that goal succeeded too. That's two victories in one for Jakker on this resolution!

Given the embassies are closed,

Nope. We maintain our embassy with KAISERREICH.

Are they a fascist region? My understanding is they have been working to move away from that. If not, I'd kindly ask Jakker to make some changes and then submit this proposal.

I think this resolution did its job.

See DYP quote above.

I did.

[Black Hawks Matter]

As said in the proposal, the region the Embassy has embassies open with fascist regions. Thus, due to guilt by association, it follows that the Embassy must pay for having diplomatic relations with fascists and giving said fascists legitimacy and an platform to spread their hate through the Embassy's RMB. Even though we currently cannot easily find fascist posts on the RMB (if we find no evidence of fascism, we must try harder and look more), the potential of there being a fascist post in the future justifies the actions taken against the Embassy. We cannot let the fascists just be. The threat of fascist indoctrination through this online game is just too high, and we can't let indoctrination happen. That's what I was told. As has been already brought up more than once in this thread, look at history. The Nazis could not have done what they did if good people just stepped in and stopped it. The same must be done to the Embassy and other fascistic elements in NS before it escalates into something worse. The potential for that is always there, so we must always be vigilant and proactive.

OOC: "When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he has to say" -George Martin.

The logical gymnastics you're playing to come to the conclusion that fascist embassies = the next hitler is astonishing. Furthermore, guilt by association is a logical fallacy, not a sound argument.

If guilt by association is not a sound argument, then it follows that you are saying that the supporters of this proposal are wrong and are not using sound reasoning. I do not think you are asserting this, surely? Fighting fascism and their supporters is the right thing to do, and a "logical fallacy" does not negate that. The only logic that I believe in is "FASCISM BAD". If people during the time of Hitler's rise to power had the same mentality that I have, Hitler would not have become a powerful man who committed a genocide. If we fail to fight fascism in NS and a person, who becomes a tyrant in the future, is indoctrinated since we as a playerbase did not reject and isolate fascism, history will look back on our actions and judge harshly. Anyways, to be against this proposal is to be on the same side as some fascists. How can anyone argue against this fact? Thus, it is wrong to be against this proposal.

And yes, I do fear the consequences of fascism. Like genocide for example. That is why I am fighting so hard against it. Yes, we must metaphorically tear out the tongues of fascists: through gameplay mechanics, we must deprive them of any avenues of communication through which their vile views can spread. How else can we accomplish our goal of ridding NS of fascism? If we always take serious actions against fascists, they will eventually realize that they are wrong. Brute force will eventually work, not dialogue as some people often assert. Try having a reasonable dialogue with Hitler and see how that goes. History tells us the result of that.

Black Hawks Matter makes light of the situation (thank you for bringing humour to the thread, it has been highly entertaining), but there is truth in this. For the 21 or so months that I have been in the embassy, almost all the RMB posts have been inane chat. If you can link a post where I agree to concede Sudetenland to a fascist, please share.
I have had more conversations with fascists in the past few days than I did in the previous 21 months. I contacted about 80 of the 88 embassies before I closed them, politely explaining my reasons for closing. You would probably consider my approach as appeasement. Seven of those embassies chose to remove the tag. It's not a huge success story, but it's a small step that evidences that people are open to change if you engage in dialogue.

I am not here for your entertainment, and I fail to see what is so funny. Fascism is a heavy matter, not one that we should make light of. That is why I fight against fascism in this internet game.

Why should we listen to someone who has conversations with fascists? I do not believe in reason and dialogue as a way to convert fascists. By entering into dialogue with fascists, you must engage with and think seriously about their ideas. You are treating them as people and giving them a chance. But fascists ideas are bad, obviously, so there is no need to think about it. We should not listen to fascists. If you close your mind and ears to arguments by fascists, you prevent their spread. No questions.

Forcing fascists and their allies to change seems like a better approach to me, and it works, as seen in this thread: Jakker's proposal convinced your region to change. During WWII, the good guys beat the Nazis with force, and the Nazi Party is basically non-existent. If the good guys beat the fascists in this game, they will be non-existent too. Where will they go if they are not to be seen on NS? Some will say that they will go underground and become even worse, but that is silly. We should refuse to interact with fascists, and we should not give them and their ideas the light of day. Let them stay underground where they belong. Will their minds be changed with such an approach? Who knows, but I think the answer is YES because they will see that they are wrong if we push back against them so much.

[Lord Dominator]

That's really not the point of my argument which is that liberations can do their job without passing...

Sure, but mine is that Asia is non-example, as the Liberation didn't affect any of our actual plans in any notable manner.

[Praeceps]

That's really not the point of my argument which is that liberations can do their job without passing...

Sure, but mine is that Asia is non-example, as the Liberation didn't affect any of our actual plans in any notable manner.

Of course, whatever suits your narrative.

[The Ambassadors Reception]

I'm just clearing up some false statements that were made.

What a coincidence!
In the days since we changed policy in The Embassy, I have been called a liar on this thread, a Nazi appeaser, and I have you trying to cast doubt upon my character by your use of the word "concerning".

You're going off on what might happen compared to what should happen.

*Pauses, and looks around the world at the presidents and prime ministers currently in power, and the policies they are implementing, then looks at you incredulously:*
Are you seriously suggesting that looking at how people should vote is a good indicator of how they actually vote? Dear child, you have much to learn.

We have moved on from analysing hard facts about peoples' expressed opinions, through the realms of what is uncertain, and now into the land of what we wish for. Wishful thinking is not a sound basis for any analysis.

You should have noticed during your research that McMasterdonia is also the Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The North Pacific and decides (with the Delegate) the recommendation of the government. Since apparently I'm too lazy to do any analysis, how about you go take a look and find out how frequently that the Delegate ended up voting contrary to the recommendation of the region?

My apologies, but there are limits to the amount of effort I'm willing to put in to retrospectively investigate a hypothetical scenario about a proposal that is not going to be submitted, let alone voted upon.

The concern was how you knew there were so many fascist embassies and found them so easily. o.O

Let me reassure you, dear child, that having a basic grasp of how to use the API is not inherently evil. It may look like witchcraft and dark magic, but I assure you it is not.

Perhaps you should read what Jakker wrote. He explicitly listed "some of". That literally implies that his list is not exhaustive. It seems you may have misread that part.

Jakker may or may not have had more fascist embassies that he was aware of but did not bother to list. At the end of the day, any fascist embassies you held would be pointed out.

You have already read the telegram I sent you on the subject of listing embassies. If you would like to discuss it in detail, you are welcome to post a copy of the telegram here, and we can discuss it point by point. Otherwise, I suggest you move on from persuing this track of discussion.

Unless Jakker's goal was to fool you into thinking he was motivated by anti-fascism, [...]

Well, if that's the case, that goal succeeded too.

...

We maintain our embassy with KAISERREICH.

Are they a fascist region? My understanding is they have been working to move away from that. If not, I'd kindly ask Jakker to make some changes and then submit this proposal.

On the first page of this thread, you ask Jakker to move all references to "fascist" regions from the proposal itself, and into the OP. At no point do you suggest that KR be removed from the list on the basis that they are reforming. Unless Jakker added their name to the list after your post, you appear to be quite happy to allow their name to be associated with fascism in the OP.
Evidence:

Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.

I think listing the regions in the OP of your post (but not the resolution itself) is sufficient. So I'd remove the "including" and everything following it including the following clause regarding KR.

You may have "understood" that KR "have been working to move away" from fascism, but you made no attempt whatsoever to have their name, and the association, removed from the OP. If I was in KR, I would wonder why the hell we were bothering.

I stated in an earlier post to someone:
"If you really want to fight fascism on the internet, recognise that you win by dialogue and persuasion, not petty point scoring. It's not about winning executive delegacies. It's about winning hearts and minds."

KR are attempting reforms. Unless they go back to their old ways, we should start being more accepting.

Honeydew gets it. Take a lesson from them.

[Paleoconservative Citizens]

They have done nothing wrong we all know that TBH wanna take the embassy as a trophy like you did to secfanatics.

For the sake of factuality, TBH has and had no interest in keeping SECFanatics as a trophy, as evidenced by their withdrawal from the region

Does this explain why they've just raided SECFanatics again and closed embassies with all the regions, including my puppet storage region?

[Kromerov]

For the sake of factuality, TBH has and had no interest in keeping SECFanatics as a trophy, as evidenced by their withdrawal from the region

Does this explain why they've just raided SECFanatics again and closed embassies with all the regions, including my puppet storage region?

You know, that is a rather interesting thing you brought up. Even after the supposed withdrawal of the Black Hawks, they seem to have come back unexpectedly. But, that is for another thread, this one has filled its purpose

[Praeceps]

I'm just clearing up some false statements that were made.

What a coincidence!
In the days since we changed policy in The Embassy, I have been called a liar on this thread, a Nazi appeaser, and I have you trying to cast doubt upon my character by your use of the word "concerning".

The only one who ever cast doubt on your character was yourself through your actions.

You're going off on what might happen compared to what should happen.

*Pauses, and looks around the world at the presidents and prime ministers currently in power, and the policies they are implementing, then looks at you incredulously:*
Are you seriously suggesting that looking at how people should vote is a good indicator of how they actually vote? Dear child, you have much to learn.

We have moved on from analysing hard facts about peoples' expressed opinions, through the realms of what is uncertain, and now into the land of what we wish for. Wishful thinking is not a sound basis for any analysis.

Should in this context meaning what is most likely to happen regardless of opinions taking into account the various stakeholders influencing

If anyone has anything to learn, I imagine that you should start learning about the major regions and their politics. Feel free to message me, I'd be glad to help out.

You should have noticed during your research that McMasterdonia is also the Minister of World Assembly Affairs for The North Pacific and decides (with the Delegate) the recommendation of the government. Since apparently I'm too lazy to do any analysis, how about you go take a look and find out how frequently that the Delegate ended up voting contrary to the recommendation of the region?

My apologies, but there are limits to the amount of effort I'm willing to put in to retrospectively investigate a hypothetical scenario about a proposal that is not going to be submitted, let alone voted upon.

I graciously accept your apology.

The concern was how you knew there were so many fascist embassies and found them so easily. o.O

Let me reassure you, dear child, that having a basic grasp of how to use the API is not inherently evil. It may look like witchcraft and dark magic, but I assure you it is not.

The repeated condescension on your part in referring to me as a child is quite endearing and is an excellent display of maturity.

Perhaps you should read what Jakker wrote. He explicitly listed "some of". That literally implies that his list is not exhaustive. It seems you may have misread that part.

Jakker may or may not have had more fascist embassies that he was aware of but did not bother to list. At the end of the day, any fascist embassies you held would be pointed out.

You have already read the telegram I sent you on the subject of listing embassies. If you would like to discuss it in detail, you are welcome to post a copy of the telegram here, and we can discuss it point by point. Otherwise, I suggest you move on from persuing this track of discussion.

Your telegram was irrelevant to the matter being debated. And it was far more appropriate to forward on to the government of The North Pacific.

Are they a fascist region? My understanding is they have been working to move away from that. If not, I'd kindly ask Jakker to make some changes and then submit this proposal.

On the first page of this thread, you ask Jakker to move all references to "fascist" regions from the proposal itself, and into the OP. At no point do you suggest that KR be removed from the list on the basis that they are reforming. Unless Jakker added their name to the list after your post, you appear to be quite happy to allow their name to be associated with fascism in the OP.
Evidence:

Fascist regions should not be advertised in the resolution.

I think listing the regions in the OP of your post (but not the resolution itself) is sufficient. So I'd remove the "including" and everything following it including the following clause regarding KR.

You may have "understood" that KR "have been working to move away" from fascism, but you made no attempt whatsoever to have their name, and the association, removed from the OP. If I was in KR, I would wonder why the hell we were bothering.

I stated in an earlier post to someone:
"If you really want to fight fascism on the internet, recognise that you win by dialogue and persuasion, not petty point scoring. It's not about winning executive delegacies. It's about winning hearts and minds."

KR are attempting reforms. Unless they go back to their old ways, we should start being more accepting.

Honeydew gets it. Take a lesson from them.

Ah yes, there is definitely no possible way that I got new information between those posts. Regardless of whether KR is fascist or not, an inclusion by name of their region would have been appropriate.

I don't think I've had the pleasure of talking to Honeydewistania. They seem nice enough though, maybe I'll send them a telegram. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Honeydewistania]

[Sail Nation]

This debating is essentially pointless now. The proposal won't be submitted, the fascist embassies are closed, everyone wins.

[The Ambassadors Reception]

The only one who ever cast doubt on your character was yourself through your actions.

Not true. My inactions (not removing the fascist tag, not retrospectively closing fascist embassies) are reasonable cause for criticism. Your implication that there is something sinister in the way that I am able to identify fascist tagged embassies is unjustified and unnecessary.

:roll: Should in this context meaning what is most likely to happen regardless of opinions taking into account the various stakeholders influencing

Ah! That was very much lost in translation. I'm still very far from convinced that this was ever going to go anywhere though.

If anyone has anything to learn, I imagine that you should start learning about the major regions and their politics. Feel free to message me, I'd be glad to help out.

Meh. I've no real interest, unless they're about to offer us an embassy. Thanks for the offer though.

The repeated condescension on your part in referring to me as a child is quite endearing and is an excellent display of maturity.

Yeah, that was unnecessary on my part. Sorry.

Your telegram was irrelevant to the matter being debated.

I very much disagree. The telegram clearly demonstrates why I have no reason to believe that anyone supporting this proposal is capable of identifying the fascist regions we had embassies with.

Regardless of whether KR is fascist or not, an inclusion by name of their region would have been appropriate.

Could you explain why? I get that the reference to "Liberate KAISERREICH" has a place there, but I don't get why you would think we should be closing embassies with them, or that they should be cited as an example of a fascist region. Thanks.