NATION

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[Abandoned-Mission Accomplished] Liberate The Embassy

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Jakker City
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Posts: 204
Founded: Dec 10, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:24 am

A lot of solid questions being asked. Thanks for the look over, BBD. I've made the edits.

Wayneactia wrote:I see little reason to liberate the region. Honestly Jakker, Mall already tried to liberate Haven and we saw how well that worked out didn't we? This is the exact same thing. There is no possible way you can deny the fact that if liberated, the Hawks will invade the region and close ALL of the embassies, not just the fascist ones.


I am not denying that if TBH were able to, they would raid the region and close all the embassies. With that said, anything could happen and the point I have been making is that offensive Liberations do not control what happens after the fact. Other regions/organizations could come in to take it over or protect The Embassy. The argument I am making is that this proposal would make it significantly more likely than now that the embassies in question would be removed. It has already started a larger conversation as Vippertooth looks to be talking with them about those embassies. Obviously, if the ones I have mentioned are closed, this proposal would lose a lot of bite and wouldn't really be necessary.

Gorundu wrote:Jakker, I noticed you conveniently ignored this question: "In your opinion (as a player, not a moderator), should the forums ban fascists?"

Using the arguments you have constructed yourself and quoting your own words, you are, as someone who has volunteered to join the site staff as a forum moderator, "adding legitimacy and attention" to fascists by endorsing a site which explicitly has a policy to allow fascists. And if you believe this is not the case, then neither should you believe that The Embassy is "adding legitimacy and attention" to fascists.


Well I think there is some validity to the argument that creating a space for a group gives them some legitimacy. My opinion, as a player, is that there are a lot of viewpoints on the forums that are problematic and tough to read. The forums are for nations to come together. Embassies are for regions to come together. It is not really possible to identify and ban individual nations from the forum unless they are breaking rules. However, it is possible to not allow specific regions from participating. For the site to do that on the forum, it would get very messy. However, for The Embassy to do that would be totally acceptable AND is already happening. I think this argument that The Embassy is the equivalent or even trying to be the equivalent of the forums is incorrect and flawed. They may be trying to be a central hub, but they are not trying to, nor will they ever be, a "universal" RMB. They have already denied embassies with some regions in the past as far as I know and various regions do not accept with them.

I think what needs to be driven home is that if the embassies listed in the OP were to be removed and if they decided to not have embassies with specific nazi/fascist regions, it would not change their identity at all. They would still be embassy-collectors with the most embassies and they could still act as a central hub for regions to talk. The only change would be that they now have some standards and responsibility with who they accept embassies with. I find it confusing that people are so willing to just be like "it is fine for them to have zero responsibility or thought with who they accept embassies with. That is just so hard!" Is it really too much to ask?

Overall, again if these embassies were removed, I would see no major reason to move forward with this proposal.
Last edited by Jakker City on Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Leppikania
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Founded: Apr 13, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Leppikania » Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:13 am

Wayneactia wrote:
Leppikania wrote:how dare you

So Lepp, you support fascism now? Good to know.

Jokeyness of that quote aside, how did you come to that conclusion?
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McMasterdonia
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Founded: Apr 19, 2012
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Postby McMasterdonia » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:09 pm

Bold proposal Jakker! I hope that The Embassy will take it upon themselves to close their fascist embassies. I really do not think that it is that hard to be a bit discerning when it comes to regions and to not open embassies with fascist regions. It wouldn't effect their count that much or their lead as the region with the most embassies.

If not, I fully intend to support this proposal should it be submitted.
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Awesomeland012345
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Founded: Nov 01, 2019
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Postby Awesomeland012345 » Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:24 pm

they unendorse the delegate, and this resolution does nothing.
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World Assembly Nation 665
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Founded: Feb 17, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby World Assembly Nation 665 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:13 am

CCD cut off its ties to fascist groups and it was praised almost universally with the research and dedication they put into such an action, even into their own members. The Embassy losing its fascist embassies would not indent its reputation as THE embassy collector on this site in the slightest.

A simple solution here would be The Embassy closing said embassies itself and putting forth some more research into how it does such things.
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Amaabj
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Founded: Jul 08, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Amaabj » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:25 am

Jakker City wrote:A lot of solid questions being asked. Thanks for the look over, BBD. I've made the edits.

Wayneactia wrote:I see little reason to liberate the region. Honestly Jakker, Mall already tried to liberate Haven and we saw how well that worked out didn't we? This is the exact same thing. There is no possible way you can deny the fact that if liberated, the Hawks will invade the region and close ALL of the embassies, not just the fascist ones.


I am not denying that if TBH were able to, they would raid the region and close all the embassies. With that said, anything could happen and the point I have been making is that offensive Liberations do not control what happens after the fact. Other regions/organizations could come in to take it over or protect The Embassy. The argument I am making is that this proposal would make it significantly more likely than now that the embassies in question would be removed. It has already started a larger conversation as Vippertooth looks to be talking with them about those embassies. Obviously, if the ones I have mentioned are closed, this proposal would lose a lot of bite and wouldn't really be necessary.

Gorundu wrote:Jakker, I noticed you conveniently ignored this question: "In your opinion (as a player, not a moderator), should the forums ban fascists?"

Using the arguments you have constructed yourself and quoting your own words, you are, as someone who has volunteered to join the site staff as a forum moderator, "adding legitimacy and attention" to fascists by endorsing a site which explicitly has a policy to allow fascists. And if you believe this is not the case, then neither should you believe that The Embassy is "adding legitimacy and attention" to fascists.


Well I think there is some validity to the argument that creating a space for a group gives them some legitimacy. My opinion, as a player, is that there are a lot of viewpoints on the forums that are problematic and tough to read. The forums are for nations to come together. Embassies are for regions to come together. It is not really possible to identify and ban individual nations from the forum unless they are breaking rules. However, it is possible to not allow specific regions from participating. For the site to do that on the forum, it would get very messy. However, for The Embassy to do that would be totally acceptable AND is already happening. I think this argument that The Embassy is the equivalent or even trying to be the equivalent of the forums is incorrect and flawed. They may be trying to be a central hub, but they are not trying to, nor will they ever be, a "universal" RMB. They have already denied embassies with some regions in the past as far as I know and various regions do not accept with them.

I think what needs to be driven home is that if the embassies listed in the OP were to be removed and if they decided to not have embassies with specific nazi/fascist regions, it would not change their identity at all. They would still be embassy-collectors with the most embassies and they could still act as a central hub for regions to talk. The only change would be that they now have some standards and responsibility with who they accept embassies with. I find it confusing that people are so willing to just be like "it is fine for them to have zero responsibility or thought with who they accept embassies with. That is just so hard!" Is it really too much to ask?

Overall, again if these embassies were removed, I would see no major reason to move forward with this proposal.

so first you all go after SEC Fanatics and then you go after the Embassy do you Black Hawks have no dignity.

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World Assembly Nation 665
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 45
Founded: Feb 17, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby World Assembly Nation 665 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:25 am

Amaabj wrote:
Jakker City wrote:A lot of solid questions being asked. Thanks for the look over, BBD. I've made the edits.



I am not denying that if TBH were able to, they would raid the region and close all the embassies. With that said, anything could happen and the point I have been making is that offensive Liberations do not control what happens after the fact. Other regions/organizations could come in to take it over or protect The Embassy. The argument I am making is that this proposal would make it significantly more likely than now that the embassies in question would be removed. It has already started a larger conversation as Vippertooth looks to be talking with them about those embassies. Obviously, if the ones I have mentioned are closed, this proposal would lose a lot of bite and wouldn't really be necessary.



Well I think there is some validity to the argument that creating a space for a group gives them some legitimacy. My opinion, as a player, is that there are a lot of viewpoints on the forums that are problematic and tough to read. The forums are for nations to come together. Embassies are for regions to come together. It is not really possible to identify and ban individual nations from the forum unless they are breaking rules. However, it is possible to not allow specific regions from participating. For the site to do that on the forum, it would get very messy. However, for The Embassy to do that would be totally acceptable AND is already happening. I think this argument that The Embassy is the equivalent or even trying to be the equivalent of the forums is incorrect and flawed. They may be trying to be a central hub, but they are not trying to, nor will they ever be, a "universal" RMB. They have already denied embassies with some regions in the past as far as I know and various regions do not accept with them.

I think what needs to be driven home is that if the embassies listed in the OP were to be removed and if they decided to not have embassies with specific nazi/fascist regions, it would not change their identity at all. They would still be embassy-collectors with the most embassies and they could still act as a central hub for regions to talk. The only change would be that they now have some standards and responsibility with who they accept embassies with. I find it confusing that people are so willing to just be like "it is fine for them to have zero responsibility or thought with who they accept embassies with. That is just so hard!" Is it really too much to ask?

so first you all go after SEC Fanatics and then you go after the Embassy do you Black Hawks have no dignity.


Relevance of SECFanatics in relation to the proposal given here?
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Sail Nation
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Founded: Dec 25, 2019
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Postby Sail Nation » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:53 pm

The Embassy is a great place for interregional conversations, and it is only password-protected because an irresponsible founder CTE'd. A liberation wouldn't be fair to nations such as The Ambassador's Reception, who had no choice but to password-protect the region, because then they could easily be raided a second time.

Also, may I accuse you of hypocrisy, as the Black Hawks is centered around boasting, although I do think that fascist regions should have their embassies closed.

I do have a personal connection with the embassy though, as I'm a part of the TourAdvisor Project (on a puppet), which could easily be lost of they are invaded. Please take note that this project is for the good of all of NS.

Finally, aside from a few cases, offensive liberations are simply stupid. Why should we simply give raiders a mandate to raid regions?
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Jakker City
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Posts: 204
Founded: Dec 10, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:09 pm

Sail Nation wrote:Also, may I accuse you of hypocrisy, as the Black Hawks is centered around boasting, although I do think that fascist regions should have their embassies closed.


I'm not quite sure if I see where the hypocrisy exists? I think it is fine for a region to advertise and promote themselves. I don't think that needs to happen while also indirectly promoting fascist regions as well.

I am glad that you agree with me on this. Since you are personally connected with the region, perhaps you can advocate for the change as well?

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World Assembly Nation 665
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Posts: 45
Founded: Feb 17, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby World Assembly Nation 665 » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:12 pm

Sail Nation wrote:The Embassy is a great place for interregional conversations, and it is only password-protected because an irresponsible founder CTE'd. A liberation wouldn't be fair to nations such as The Ambassador's Reception, who had no choice but to password-protect the region, because then they could easily be raided a second time.

Also, may I accuse you of hypocrisy, as the Black Hawks is centered around boasting, although I do think that fascist regions should have their embassies closed.

I do have a personal connection with the embassy though, as I'm a part of the TourAdvisor Project (on a puppet), which could easily be lost of they are invaded. Please take note that this project is for the good of all of NS.

Finally, aside from a few cases, offensive liberations are simply stupid. Why should we simply give raiders a mandate to raid regions?


World Assembly Nation 665 wrote:CCD cut off its ties to fascist groups and it was praised almost universally with the research and dedication they put into such an action, even into their own members. The Embassy losing its fascist embassies would not indent its reputation as THE embassy collector on this site in the slightest.

A simple solution here would be The Embassy closing said embassies itself and putting forth some more research into how it does such things.
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I don't have anything original to put here.

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Sail Nation
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Founded: Dec 25, 2019
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Postby Sail Nation » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:20 pm

Jakker City wrote:
Sail Nation wrote:Also, may I accuse you of hypocrisy, as the Black Hawks is centered around boasting, although I do think that fascist regions should have their embassies closed.


I'm not quite sure if I see where the hypocrisy exists? I think it is fine for a region to advertise and promote themselves. I don't think that needs to happen while also indirectly promoting fascist regions as well.

I am glad that you agree with me on this. Since you are personally connected with the region, perhaps you can advocate for the change as well?

It's just that TBH boasts about basically everything they do, so you as a TBH officer or whatever you're called, why do you say 'Raising concerns about the practices of The Embassy, an embassy-collecting region, that boasts of having the most embassies in the world,' as your region does that quite frequently, just in a different way.

Anyway, I'll try to convince the region to close Fascist embassies, because that would immediately crush all support for this resolution, aside from support from raider groups.
Former WA delegate and MP and current Prime Minister in Lorania
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Jakker City
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Posts: 204
Founded: Dec 10, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:39 pm

Sail Nation wrote:Anyway, I'll try to convince the region to close Fascist embassies, because that would immediately crush all support for this resolution, aside from support from raider groups.


I appreciate the support. I am glad to see this proposal having such an impact already.

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The Ambassadors Reception
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Posts: 49
Founded: Sep 16, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Ambassadors Reception » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:47 pm

Awesomeland012345 wrote:they unendorse the delegate, and this resolution does nothing.

That's an interesting angle to take, though I doubt it works like that.

However...

Liberation: A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Our password wasn't added by the Delegate. So if Liberations do what they say on the tin, then Liberating The Embassy will have no impact.

So...

We have a Liberation proposal that has no bite.
We have a target region that is indifferent to the outcome (we can easily rebuild).
We have the Sec-Gen come out against the proposal.
We have the leading anti-fascist come out against the proposal.

Other than TBH members, and a couple of people from the North Pacific, no-one is coming out in favour of this.
We've no relationships with either of those regions. Why would we care what they think?

We have the freedom to do exactly what we please.

This needs a catchy slogan:

THE MOST FAILED PROPOSAL IN NATIONSTATES

It would be highly entertaining to sit back and watch this fail before we reveal our next step. But being nice people, we won't keep you in suspense.

Jakker's proposal is a joke. This shows no sign of being part of a sustained campaign against fascism. We don't believe for a moment that this is driven by any concerns over fascism. Jakker's just an opportunist, looking to destroy a second embassy collector region. It's kind of sad.

That said, despite Jakker's cynical motives, there is some validity in the argument that we are implicitly tolerating fascism. And without this proposal, we may never have met Vippertooth33.

Fortunately for those who don't like fascism, the leading anti-fascist in NationStates, Vippertooth, understands that conversation is the way to reach understanding. Diplomacy succeeds where aggression failed. We have agreed a number of steps that we will take to address Vippertooth's concerns, the first of which are the removal of the fascist tag, and the closure of 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag. The irony of 88 coincidentally being a nazi number was not lost on either side! We will be taking further steps in the future, but the plans for those are yet to be finalised.

Usually we keep our internal policies to ourselves. Following our agreement with Vippertooth, these policies are no longer needed, so I guess it's not a big deal if we share them.

I wrote a script that allowed me to request embassies with "new" regions in just two clicks each. That made the task of requesting embassies easy, and by only targeting "new" regions, removed a lot of the "embassy-spam" were often accused of.
The script was later modified to exclude regions tagged "fascist". It was also modified to exclude regions with "Nazi", "fascist", or "national socialist" in the name. There was a bug in the second filter though (since fixed). If there were two regions with "Nazi" in the name, the first would be excluded, but the second would slip through. Hence how we ended up with an embassy with "Nazi Africa".
Of course, regions could still tag themselves as "fascist" after we sent the embassy request.
There has been no policy to retrospectively close these embassies. That would have shown us to not be "neutral".
The strategy showed signs of working. Over the past three months, the number of embassies tagged fascist, (excluding those like us who are also tagged anti-fascist), decreased by 24 from 112 to 88, a drop of over 20%. The drop would have been greater, but for the bug. During the same period, our overall embassy count hit new highs.

Similarly, we decided that when fascist regions posted on our RMB, the way to deal with it was to spam the RMB with inane conversation, so that the fascist post disappeared off our feed. No need to suppress and give the poster a sense of victimhood.

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East Blepia
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby East Blepia » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:50 pm

This is an absolutely disgusting proposal and one which I wholeheartedly oppose.

Why should regions of a certain political flavour, however obscene you consider it to be, be denied a non-political public institution against the will of the providers of the said institution on whom you would have to force such a policy?

The wheel of public opinion has a habit of turning around and about. Communism was once considered to be similarly obscene. It's like granting the state the power to censor: can you really expect that from here on out the court of public opinion will always be in your favour?

This just makes anti-fascism look bad. Internet fascists, so long as they do not actually commit violence, are people too. They have friends, families, pets, and hobbies, just like you. They have the beliefs they hold because they believe that they are ultimately sweet and good. Why should we make an effort of isolating and insulating them? Will other people catch the fascism? If that's the case, by the same logic it is just as likely for fascists to be relieved of the fascism. Good and honest discourse can never be had so long as one dehumanises and attempts to isolate the other side.

How someone could advocate for such a terribly rude and short-sighted proposal is just beyond me.
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Aurum Raider
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Founded: Sep 18, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Aurum Raider » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:07 pm

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:Our password wasn't added by the Delegate. So if Liberations do what they say on the tin, then Liberating The Embassy will have no impact.

I'm actually curious about this - has a liberation proposal been used on a founderless region with a founder-imposed password before?
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Jakker City
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Posts: 204
Founded: Dec 10, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:27 pm

The Ambassadors Reception wrote:
That's an interesting angle to take, though I doubt it works like that.

However...

Liberation: A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Our password wasn't added by the Delegate. So if Liberations do what they say on the tin, then Liberating The Embassy will have no impact.

So...

We have a Liberation proposal that has no bite.
We have a target region that is indifferent to the outcome (we can easily rebuild).
We have the Sec-Gen come out against the proposal.
We have the leading anti-fascist come out against the proposal.

Other than TBH members, and a couple of people from the North Pacific, no-one is coming out in favour of this.
We've no relationships with either of those regions. Why would we care what they think?

We have the freedom to do exactly what we please.

This needs a catchy slogan:

THE MOST FAILED PROPOSAL IN NATIONSTATES

It would be highly entertaining to sit back and watch this fail before we reveal our next step. But being nice people, we won't keep you in suspense.

Jakker's proposal is a joke. This shows no sign of being part of a sustained campaign against fascism. We don't believe for a moment that this is driven by any concerns over fascism. Jakker's just an opportunist, looking to destroy a second embassy collector region. It's kind of sad.

That said, despite Jakker's cynical motives, there is some validity in the argument that we are implicitly tolerating fascism. And without this proposal, we may never have met Vippertooth33.

Fortunately for those who don't like fascism, the leading anti-fascist in NationStates, Vippertooth, understands that conversation is the way to reach understanding. Diplomacy succeeds where aggression failed. We have agreed a number of steps that we will take to address Vippertooth's concerns, the first of which are the removal of the fascist tag, and the closure of 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag. The irony of 88 coincidentally being a nazi number was not lost on either side! We will be taking further steps in the future, but the plans for those are yet to be finalised.

Usually we keep our internal policies to ourselves. Following our agreement with Vippertooth, these policies are no longer needed, so I guess it's not a big deal if we share them.

I wrote a script that allowed me to request embassies with "new" regions in just two clicks each. That made the task of requesting embassies easy, and by only targeting "new" regions, removed a lot of the "embassy-spam" were often accused of.
The script was later modified to exclude regions tagged "fascist". It was also modified to exclude regions with "Nazi", "fascist", or "national socialist" in the name. There was a bug in the second filter though (since fixed). If there were two regions with "Nazi" in the name, the first would be excluded, but the second would slip through. Hence how we ended up with an embassy with "Nazi Africa".
Of course, regions could still tag themselves as "fascist" after we sent the embassy request.
There has been no policy to retrospectively close these embassies. That would have shown us to not be "neutral".
The strategy showed signs of working. Over the past three months, the number of embassies tagged fascist, (excluding those like us who are also tagged anti-fascist), decreased by 24 from 112 to 88, a drop of over 20%. The drop would have been greater, but for the bug. During the same period, our overall embassy count hit new highs.

Similarly, we decided that when fascist regions posted on our RMB, the way to deal with it was to spam the RMB with inane conversation, so that the fascist post disappeared off our feed. No need to suppress and give the poster a sense of victimhood.


Listen dude, you can say whatever you want about this proposal, but you've really done a poor job of representing The Embassy in this thread. First off, you appear to be lying about the password as evident by this RMB post. Leppikania was elected delegate of the region the day before the founder CTE which is visible on the history page:
1 year 200 days ago: Regional Founder Embassy master ceased to exist.
1 year 201 days ago: The Democratic States of Leppikania removed as WA Delegate.
1 year 201 days ago: Embassy closed with The Roman Empire.
1 year 201 days ago: Embassy closed with The tatar confederation.
1 year 201 days ago: The Democratic States of Leppikania elected WA Delegate.

You all had to kick nations so that you had enough influence to impose a password by the delegate. This drop in population is evident by your history page as well. Therefore, the password was not placed there by the founder and this proposal will have an effect.

It sounds like you are taking some steps to resolve this matter, which is great. But next time, you should reflect on your own work before having to rely on others to hold you accountable. I think this practice will help you with understanding what might really be the joke. ;)
Last edited by Jakker City on Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Sail Nation
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Posts: 98
Founded: Dec 25, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sail Nation » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:35 pm

Jakker City wrote:
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:
That's an interesting angle to take, though I doubt it works like that.

However...

Liberation: A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Our password wasn't added by the Delegate. So if Liberations do what they say on the tin, then Liberating The Embassy will have no impact.

So...

We have a Liberation proposal that has no bite.
We have a target region that is indifferent to the outcome (we can easily rebuild).
We have the Sec-Gen come out against the proposal.
We have the leading anti-fascist come out against the proposal.

Other than TBH members, and a couple of people from the North Pacific, no-one is coming out in favour of this.
We've no relationships with either of those regions. Why would we care what they think?

We have the freedom to do exactly what we please.

This needs a catchy slogan:

THE MOST FAILED PROPOSAL IN NATIONSTATES

It would be highly entertaining to sit back and watch this fail before we reveal our next step. But being nice people, we won't keep you in suspense.

Jakker's proposal is a joke. This shows no sign of being part of a sustained campaign against fascism. We don't believe for a moment that this is driven by any concerns over fascism. Jakker's just an opportunist, looking to destroy a second embassy collector region. It's kind of sad.

That said, despite Jakker's cynical motives, there is some validity in the argument that we are implicitly tolerating fascism. And without this proposal, we may never have met Vippertooth33.

Fortunately for those who don't like fascism, the leading anti-fascist in NationStates, Vippertooth, understands that conversation is the way to reach understanding. Diplomacy succeeds where aggression failed. We have agreed a number of steps that we will take to address Vippertooth's concerns, the first of which are the removal of the fascist tag, and the closure of 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag. The irony of 88 coincidentally being a nazi number was not lost on either side! We will be taking further steps in the future, but the plans for those are yet to be finalised.

Usually we keep our internal policies to ourselves. Following our agreement with Vippertooth, these policies are no longer needed, so I guess it's not a big deal if we share them.

I wrote a script that allowed me to request embassies with "new" regions in just two clicks each. That made the task of requesting embassies easy, and by only targeting "new" regions, removed a lot of the "embassy-spam" were often accused of.
The script was later modified to exclude regions tagged "fascist". It was also modified to exclude regions with "Nazi", "fascist", or "national socialist" in the name. There was a bug in the second filter though (since fixed). If there were two regions with "Nazi" in the name, the first would be excluded, but the second would slip through. Hence how we ended up with an embassy with "Nazi Africa".
Of course, regions could still tag themselves as "fascist" after we sent the embassy request.
There has been no policy to retrospectively close these embassies. That would have shown us to not be "neutral".
The strategy showed signs of working. Over the past three months, the number of embassies tagged fascist, (excluding those like us who are also tagged anti-fascist), decreased by 24 from 112 to 88, a drop of over 20%. The drop would have been greater, but for the bug. During the same period, our overall embassy count hit new highs.

Similarly, we decided that when fascist regions posted on our RMB, the way to deal with it was to spam the RMB with inane conversation, so that the fascist post disappeared off our feed. No need to suppress and give the poster a sense of victimhood.


Listen dude, you can say whatever you want about this proposal, but you've really done a poor job of representing The Embassy. First off, you appear to be lying about the password as evident by this RMB post. Leppikania was elected delegate of the region the day before the founder CTE which is visible on the history page:
1 year 200 days ago: Regional Founder Embassy master ceased to exist.
1 year 201 days ago: The Democratic States of Leppikania removed as WA Delegate.
1 year 201 days ago: Embassy closed with The Roman Empire.
1 year 201 days ago: Embassy closed with The tatar confederation.
1 year 201 days ago: The Democratic States of Leppikania elected WA Delegate.

You all had to kick nations so that you had enough influence to impose a password by the delegate. This drop in population is evident by your history page as well. Therefore, the password was not placed there by the founder and this proposal will have an effect.

It sounds like you are taking some steps to resolve this matter, which is great. But next time, you should reflect on your own work before having to rely on others to hold you accountable. I think this practice will help you with understanding what might really be the joke. ;)

Does this even matter now? The apparent motives behind the resolution are now gone, with the Fascist tag removed, and steps being taken to remove fascist embassies. It is now so obvious that the real motives are to set up an invasion by TBH for 'fun' purposes, rather than valid reasoning.

If you've read the dispatch highlighting The Embassy's history, you will know that the ejecting of nations was essential for the region's security.

Anyway, I don't think this could even reach quorum, I'm definitely not supporting it, and I don't see many other delegates supporting it either.
Former WA delegate and MP and current Prime Minister in Lorania
MP in Thaecia (as Prussian Sail Nation)
Travelling nationstates (as Sail Nation Travellers), reviewing regions as I go

User avatar
Paleoconservative Citizens
Envoy
 
Posts: 288
Founded: Jun 22, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Paleoconservative Citizens » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:44 pm

OOC: And just how does this affect you? The Embassy has too many embassies so we must stop them? No, I don't see any issue with this. And the Embassy opens embassies with everyone, not just Fascists, but also including Communists, Libertarians, Conservatives, Liberals, Anarchists, etc.
I've never seen an issue with The Embassy. Sounds like you just got bored and decided "Hey The Embassy is a good target". Against.
Lutheran, Conservative. An ancient puppet brought to you by The Sladerstan
Good works do not make a good man, but a good man does good works, likewise, bad works do not make a bad man, but a bad man does bad works.

Chris White, leader of AAPC

Disclaimer: I often use gender and sex as interchangeable terms.

User avatar
Jakker City
Envoy
 
Posts: 204
Founded: Dec 10, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:44 pm

Sail Nation wrote:
Jakker City wrote:
Listen dude, you can say whatever you want about this proposal, but you've really done a poor job of representing The Embassy. First off, you appear to be lying about the password as evident by this RMB post. Leppikania was elected delegate of the region the day before the founder CTE which is visible on the history page:
1 year 200 days ago: Regional Founder Embassy master ceased to exist.
1 year 201 days ago: The Democratic States of Leppikania removed as WA Delegate.
1 year 201 days ago: Embassy closed with The Roman Empire.
1 year 201 days ago: Embassy closed with The tatar confederation.
1 year 201 days ago: The Democratic States of Leppikania elected WA Delegate.

You all had to kick nations so that you had enough influence to impose a password by the delegate. This drop in population is evident by your history page as well. Therefore, the password was not placed there by the founder and this proposal will have an effect.

It sounds like you are taking some steps to resolve this matter, which is great. But next time, you should reflect on your own work before having to rely on others to hold you accountable. I think this practice will help you with understanding what might really be the joke. ;)

Does this even matter now? The apparent motives behind the resolution are now gone, with the Fascist tag removed, and steps being taken to remove fascist embassies. It is now so obvious that the real motives are to set up an invasion by TBH for 'fun' purposes, rather than valid reasoning.

If you've read the dispatch highlighting The Embassy's history, you will know that the ejecting of nations was essential for the region's security.

Anyway, I don't think this could even reach quorum, I'm definitely not supporting it, and I don't see many other delegates supporting it either.


Yes, this all matters still. The Ambassadors Reception has tried to lie about the region's password and as I noted before, the region as a whole has had years to deal with this embassies on their own. Therefore, there is no reason to trust them until they actually do what they say they will do. The Ambassadors Reception said that they will close 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag, so it makes sense to wait and see that actually happen.

User avatar
The Ambassadors Reception
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 49
Founded: Sep 16, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Ambassadors Reception » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:47 pm

Jakker City wrote:
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:
That's an interesting angle to take, though I doubt it works like that.

However...

Liberation: A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Our password wasn't added by the Delegate. So if Liberations do what they say on the tin, then Liberating The Embassy will have no impact.

So...

We have a Liberation proposal that has no bite.
We have a target region that is indifferent to the outcome (we can easily rebuild).
We have the Sec-Gen come out against the proposal.
We have the leading anti-fascist come out against the proposal.

Other than TBH members, and a couple of people from the North Pacific, no-one is coming out in favour of this.
We've no relationships with either of those regions. Why would we care what they think?

We have the freedom to do exactly what we please.

This needs a catchy slogan:

THE MOST FAILED PROPOSAL IN NATIONSTATES

It would be highly entertaining to sit back and watch this fail before we reveal our next step. But being nice people, we won't keep you in suspense.

Jakker's proposal is a joke. This shows no sign of being part of a sustained campaign against fascism. We don't believe for a moment that this is driven by any concerns over fascism. Jakker's just an opportunist, looking to destroy a second embassy collector region. It's kind of sad.

That said, despite Jakker's cynical motives, there is some validity in the argument that we are implicitly tolerating fascism. And without this proposal, we may never have met Vippertooth33.

Fortunately for those who don't like fascism, the leading anti-fascist in NationStates, Vippertooth, understands that conversation is the way to reach understanding. Diplomacy succeeds where aggression failed. We have agreed a number of steps that we will take to address Vippertooth's concerns, the first of which are the removal of the fascist tag, and the closure of 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag. The irony of 88 coincidentally being a nazi number was not lost on either side! We will be taking further steps in the future, but the plans for those are yet to be finalised.

Usually we keep our internal policies to ourselves. Following our agreement with Vippertooth, these policies are no longer needed, so I guess it's not a big deal if we share them.

I wrote a script that allowed me to request embassies with "new" regions in just two clicks each. That made the task of requesting embassies easy, and by only targeting "new" regions, removed a lot of the "embassy-spam" were often accused of.
The script was later modified to exclude regions tagged "fascist". It was also modified to exclude regions with "Nazi", "fascist", or "national socialist" in the name. There was a bug in the second filter though (since fixed). If there were two regions with "Nazi" in the name, the first would be excluded, but the second would slip through. Hence how we ended up with an embassy with "Nazi Africa".
Of course, regions could still tag themselves as "fascist" after we sent the embassy request.
There has been no policy to retrospectively close these embassies. That would have shown us to not be "neutral".
The strategy showed signs of working. Over the past three months, the number of embassies tagged fascist, (excluding those like us who are also tagged anti-fascist), decreased by 24 from 112 to 88, a drop of over 20%. The drop would have been greater, but for the bug. During the same period, our overall embassy count hit new highs.

Similarly, we decided that when fascist regions posted on our RMB, the way to deal with it was to spam the RMB with inane conversation, so that the fascist post disappeared off our feed. No need to suppress and give the poster a sense of victimhood.

Listen dude, you can say whatever you want about this proposal, but you've really done a poor job of representing The Embassy in this thread. First off, you appear to be lying about the password

*Sigh*
I said the password wasn't added by the delegate. I never claimed the password was added by the founder.
The password was changed by me, an RO, in mid May.
The Liberation states that it applies to "Delegate-imposed barriers". So assuming that's true, this Liberation would be toothless.

Jakker City wrote:you should reflect on your own work before having to rely on others to hold you accountable.

Lol! If that's what you think just happened, I'll let you continue to think that.

User avatar
Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6133
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:49 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:This is not a TBH endorsed endeavor, any more that Jakker being a mod makes it a mod endorsed one ;)

Not officially anyway. What is your position on this? Do you just so happen to be in favor of this?

I'm not particularly fond of the proposal, in principle or otherwise.
Oh, and by the way, the mods have clear standards that they will not act against a rule abiding region, so I know they don't endorse this. The Black Hawks don't have the same standards.

Irrelevant, my point is that Jakker's position in TBH doesn't make this a TBH sponsored thing (which it isn't).
The Ambassadors Reception wrote:We have the Sec-Gen come out against the proposal.

The position of Secretary General is a joke position with no power. The opinion of the holder of that title matters as much as any other player's opinion does.
Dee Vytherov-Skollvaldr | Forest | TBH Major and Council Member | WA Vizier | Ambassador to the WA

User avatar
East Blepia
Attaché
 
Posts: 73
Founded: Jan 16, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby East Blepia » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:50 pm

Jakker City wrote:Yes, this all matters still. The Ambassadors Reception has tried to lie about the region's password and as I noted before, the region as a whole has had years to deal with this embassies on their own. Therefore, there is no reason to trust them until they actually do what they say they will do. The Ambassadors Reception said that they will close 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag, so it makes sense to wait and see that actually happen.


"I have bullied this peaceful region into succumbing to my overtly political demands which take time to fuflill, and while this time is passing I shall continue to threaten them."
For: religion, environment, free speech, welfare, isolationism, right to bear arms, family values, home ownership, democracy, monarchy, Catholic Church, Palestine, Serbia, the Confederate flag, President Bashar al-Assad, Khalifa Haftar, American Solidarity Party

Against: secularism, atheism, interventionism, imperialism, colonialism, brinksmanship, abortion, homosexuality (love the sinner, hate the sin), racism, pornography, rapid advancement of technology, iconoclasm, Israel, Turkey, European Union, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham

User avatar
Jakker City
Envoy
 
Posts: 204
Founded: Dec 10, 2011
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker City » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:57 pm

East Blepia wrote:
Jakker City wrote:Yes, this all matters still. The Ambassadors Reception has tried to lie about the region's password and as I noted before, the region as a whole has had years to deal with this embassies on their own. Therefore, there is no reason to trust them until they actually do what they say they will do. The Ambassadors Reception said that they will close 88 embassies that hold the fascist tag, so it makes sense to wait and see that actually happen.


"I have bullied this peaceful region into succumbing to my overtly political demands which take time to fuflill, and while this time is passing I shall continue to threaten them."


I closed over 700 embassies the other day in a couple of hours. If they mean what they say and prioritize this, I'm sure they can get it done in a matter of days at most.

User avatar
Trigori
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 125
Founded: Mar 17, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Trigori » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:59 pm

An incredible proposal. Full 100% support. But only if the author is right after condemned for promoting Nazism by exposing it to everyone through this resolution.
Dirty monarchist, Visegradist and moustache enthusiast
Looking for Dutch people to put into my collection

User avatar
East Blepia
Attaché
 
Posts: 73
Founded: Jan 16, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby East Blepia » Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:06 pm

Jakker City wrote:I closed over 700 embassies the other day in a couple of hours. If they mean what they say and prioritize this, I'm sure they can get it done in a matter of days at most.


Perhaps they may not actually mean what they say because they have been coerced by threat of raiding.
For: religion, environment, free speech, welfare, isolationism, right to bear arms, family values, home ownership, democracy, monarchy, Catholic Church, Palestine, Serbia, the Confederate flag, President Bashar al-Assad, Khalifa Haftar, American Solidarity Party

Against: secularism, atheism, interventionism, imperialism, colonialism, brinksmanship, abortion, homosexuality (love the sinner, hate the sin), racism, pornography, rapid advancement of technology, iconoclasm, Israel, Turkey, European Union, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham

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