[Abandoned-Mission Accomplished] Liberate The Embassy

[World Assembly Nation 665]

I am against this proposal. The Embassy serves as an interregional message board, and is a record holder.

Eh, the Embassy's RMB is not even active. And all those embassy requests sure do get annoying.

Even though I think it would kinda be fun to watch the Embassy burn, this proposal really is straight up bullying. I know some of you don't care about that and rather see this as an opportunity to have a bit of fun while feeling moral about it, but this doesn't feel right.

Pray tell how that equates to bullying.

[Praeceps]

Changes look good.

Perhaps also make the language stronger in some cases, eg. "disgusted" instead of "highlighting".

[Morover]

While a condemnation could serve valuable as well, a Liberation runs more in align with how this Security Council has handled similar situations in the past (Liberate KAISERREICH, Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators, Liberate Nazi Europa). Unlike those other Liberations, this can actually produce real change since the nominated region currently has a password and founderless. Liberate KAISERREICH even argued that the region should be liberated because they were trying to not be transparent with who they are. While The Embassy itself may not overtly practice nazi and fascism, they are still adding legitmacy and attention to it simply for the sake of promoting their own region. Yet they are not taking responsibility for it. This is where the SC can come in to create true change.

This is a false equivalence - especially considering that, by your own admission, this could "produce real change" - e.g. destruction - as opposed to just sending a message. I'm all for fash-bashes - this isn't one of those.

Opposed.

[Bormiar]

The Embassy only has the obligation to create a universal RMB.

I think that is the mentality we need to do away with. The Embassy has zero obligation to universally allow embassies with regions and to communicate on their RMB. They have chosen to do this. They can choose to have expectations of what they allow and do not allow. Setting some kind of standard should not be seen as something insurmountable. And I'd argue that it is very reasonable to expect The Embassy to check every region that they propose embassies with or accept. As someone who regularly has do this exact thing in TBH, it doesn't take a ton of time to simply do a quick glance of the regional characteristics and go from there. Lastly, I also want to dispel this notion that their practice of having a universal RMB where regions can recruit and communicate as this totally altruistic thing. It is a means of drawing attention. All embassy collectors do so for attention to some degree.

You can talk about ulterior motives, but in reality the Embassy is a service, a service whose mission is to establish embassies with everyone to emulate the forums. Clearly, that mission has issues, but it is not our job to remedy them unless they are doing clear harm to the rest of the world.

If we want to go into "attention" and "motives", we can talk about that. What is your motive? Are you spearheading a noble crusade against fascism, or are you looking for a target for the Black Hawks?

Thirdly, what damage are these embassies causing?

I saw this in SECFanatics and have noticed this elsewhere. Many regions like having more embassies because it is a sign of diplomacy, of their region connecting with others. Having embassies with other regions absolutely means something. If The Embassy is to be regarded as the central hub for in-game regions of NationStates, then an embassy with them serves to affirm a problematic region's beliefs and practices. Also, if embassies did not mean much, we wouldn't have embassy-collecting regions.

This embassy-collecting region does not collect embassies out of sentimentality; they do it for the RMB function. So embassies do not mean much to them in the sense that you've established.

And granted that an embassy sent briefly after your region's founding from a region named "The Embassy" with thousands of embassies makes a region feel special or well-connected (though I haven't been convinced of that), where is the damage here? It seems a stretch to say that the embassy is creating, or even assisting, in a fascist circlejerk, especially given the near inevitability of the circlejerk, especially when you're faced with a common enemy (us). You're just dancing with this question.

I'd prefer an anti-"embassy spamming" argument, because I simply haven't been convinced of the fascism argument.

There's no reason I cannot do both. I think both have their issues and I can add the embassy spamming piece to the proposal later.

I suggested embassy-spamming as a replacement, because this current draft borders on slander in how it twists and downright ignores the context of the embassies. It's simply an unfair description.

[PotatoFarmers]

Against. I know SECfanatics' invasion run has unintentionally achieved the goal of removing embassies for the fascist regions, but surely this liberation to remove embassies from another embassy collector feels more like an attempt to get another trophy then anything.

Once the password is removed, anyone is capable of trying to take the region over and doing the noble service of removing the embassies.

Shrug. Pretty sure TBH would be the first one to come in and grab the trophy.

OOC: Why all the embassies and not just fascist ones?

The goal of SECFanatics from the beginning was to close all of the embassies. The indirect benefit was also closing embassies with iffy regions as well as raising awareness to this issue.

And you said it yourself, the goal of SECFanatics was to shut all the embassies. TBH isn't collecting the region, but by doing that TBH has earned themselves another achievement of closing one of the largest embassy collectors. (Just like how TBH ends delegate streaks and what not.) If anything, even if you said that this liberation is solely just to rid it of the Nazi-based embassies, I don't see how I am able to take your word at face value.

[US Virgin Israels]

If anything, the region should be raided to close the fascist embassies and remove the tag.

[Jakker City]

If we want to go into "attention" and "motives", we can talk about that. What is your motive? Are you spearheading a noble crusade against fascism, or are you looking for a target for the Black Hawks?

My motive is to open the region up for a raid as specified in the proposal for the embassies to be closed. This is the same motive that previous offensive Liberations have used in the past. The underlying foundation of that comes from "this region is doing something that the SC has decided is not okay and should be stopped. The way to stop this and hold them accountable for their actions is to raid them." I cannot control exactly what happens if the password was to removed, but it is likely that this proposal would play a hand in removing the problematic embassies. I'm sure that TBH would definitely be interested in taking over the region as would others. But this unknwn factor as to what happens afterwards has not stopped the Security Council before.

This embassy-collecting region does not collect embassies out of sentimentality; they do it for the RMB function. So embassies do not mean much to them in the sense that you've established.

And granted that an embassy sent briefly after your region's founding from a region named "The Embassy" with thousands of embassies makes a region feel special or well-connected (though I haven't been convinced of that), where is the damage here? It seems a stretch to say that the embassy is creating, or even assisting, in a fascist circlejerk, especially given the near inevitability of the circlejerk, especially when you're faced with a common enemy (us). You're just dancing with this question.

Nothing is stopping The Embassy from taking responsibility for their actions and closing embassies with these and any region that promote fascist and other discriminatory behavior/practices. They, so far, have chosen not to do that. Also while embassies may be collected for other reasons, they also are proud about the number of embassies they have. For a while, there was a race with other embassy-collecting regions to see who could have the most. Embassies absolutely mean a lot to them as a number and indicator of success. If it didn't, why not be more selective with who they accept with? Removing these embassies and not allowing the promotion of these kind of ideals would not really take away from their overall mission. Furthermore, while these regions do not engage in the RMB and advertise their region at this time, there is nothing stopping them. In fact, as far as I can, The Embassy encourages the recruitment, so any fascist region is welcomed to use the RMB as a platform to recruit more nations. There's a lot of damage that is possible here even if it has not necessarily happened to its fullest potential yet.

[Black Hawks Matter]

Given the circumstances of the world today, we must take a stand against all those who support fascism. This means that we must destroy the Embassy because it is a fascist region that promotes racist ideology with their embassies. By acting now in this game against that region, we will be able to stop genocide and totalitarianism from happening in the real world. Look what happened during the Holocaust. If NS players of that time stood up against fascist players, the terrible events of that time would have been prevented. The stakes are very high. The next Hitler could be indoctrinated right now through the Embassy, and if we don't act now, there will be consequences. This is serious business. Fascism in NS is no laughing matter, and we must crush those who associate with fascists as much as we crush fascists themselves. You are either with us or against us: you either support the Embassy, fascism, racism, and genocide or you support justice. To put it in starker terms, you are a fascist if you don't support this proposal, or you are a good person if you support destroying the Embassy and helping rid the world of fascism and genocide. Real world lives are at stake here. People will die because of fascism if the Embassy is not destroyed and if we don't fight fascism in this online game, through which future Hitlers are created.

[Honeydewistania]

Given the circumstances of the world today, we must take a stand against all those who support fascism. This means that we must destroy the Embassy because it is a fascist region that promotes racist ideology with their embassies. By acting now in this game against that region, we will be able to stop genocide and totalitarianism from happening in the real world. Look what happened during the Holocaust. If NS players of that time stood up against fascist players, the terrible events of that time would have been prevented. The stakes are very high. The next Hitler could be indoctrinated right now through the Embassy, and if we don't act now, there will be consequences. This is serious business. Fascism in NS is no laughing matter, and we must crush those who associate with fascists as much as we crush fascists themselves. You are either with us or against us: you either support the Embassy, fascism, racism, and genocide or you support justice. To put it in starker terms, you are a fascist if you don't support this proposal, or you are a good person if you support destroying the Embassy and helping rid the world of fascism and genocide. Real world lives are at stake here. People will die because of fascism if the Embassy is not destroyed and if we don't fight fascism in this online game, through which future Hitlers are created.

Are you taking the piss?

Look, I don’t like fascism. I don’t like racism. I don’t like the Embassy and how it conducts its policies. However, you are making a generalisation. I will not support this liberation, but I am not a fascist. It will be a mockery to justice everywhere for persecuting the Embassy for it’s embassies. I will support a raid to close the offending embassies, but nothing more. Destroying this region is wrong. They are not fascists. If I am a fascist for saying that, well I don’t care. I don’t care if the Black Hawks or whoever brands me as a racist, a Nazi, a fucking torch waving KKK member. However by saying ‘all supporters of theEmbassy are fascist’ is the same as ‘all Jews control the banks’. It’s a bullshit statement to stir up fear and hate. Your statement calls many good people like All Wild Things, Agalaesia and others fascists for not supporting this bogus moral crusade against an innocent region.

[The Ambassadors Reception]

Jakker, you know perfectly well that if a Liberation goes through, it will be the end of The Embassy. There will be no practical way of keeping the region and it's embassy "collection" safe.

This comes across as an attempt to bully us into closing embassies with those regions you named, else we get destroyed.

You and I had a brief conversation three days ago related to "questionable" embassies, which ended with my comment, "Food for thought". That meant that it was something I was taking away and thinking about. I like to make my own decisions in my own time, not have my hand forced.

There are likely to be other regions not on your current list that you may want us to close in the future. If we close these embassies now in response to this publicly threatened Liberation, then there's a strong chance that this threat will be used against us again. Maybe in future there'll be pressure to close embassies with regions that aren't obviously fascist.

We're now in the heavily ironic position where if we close these nazi embassies, we're seen as capitulating to bullies. That isn't a good place to be. So we're going to have to refuse to close these embassies for now. We may close them if the threat goes away, but that needs to be our choice, and our choice alone.

The worst case for us is that the Liberation goes through, and The Embassy gets destroyed. Regions come and go. We've seen well over 15,000 of our embassies CTE during our history. Another dead region is no big deal. We'll simply record our history, and start again. With a founder. And of course, we'll extend the hand of friendship by sending you an embassy request.

---

For the benefit of others, I'll take this opportunity to explain a little about what The Embassy does.

Our prime aim is to have the most embassies in NationStates.

Our strategy is to request embassies with practically all regions tagged 'new'. We are not in the habit of requesting embassies with any other regions. If you feel like you get too many embassy requests from us, I'd politely suggest that you create fewer regions.

We offer advice to new founders. Many people start a region without knowing the basics. Our Embassy Information Centre dispatch (linked from our WFE, and pinned on our WFE) includes information on how not to get raided, amongst other things. This information is also often shared by telegram. Sadly not everyone reads this, as evidenced by the number of embassies that are currently being closed by The Black Hawks and Lily.

We've recently started a newsletter, which gives details of some of the other activities we do

Thanks

[Ransium]

It seems hypocritical to actively play NS, which tolerates fascist regions and also genuinely care that the embassy makes embassies with fascist regions.

[Marxist Germany]

Funny how the first mention of Hitler in this thread was by you...

OOC: Reductio ad Hitlerum is a fallacy that infers that an argument supported by a nazi/hitler/fascsist is inherently wrong, that's what Jakker said here:

I would also question agreeing with nations that are part of the regions listed as their disapproval only shows that embassies with them does give them legitimacy and therefore, we need to act.

[Honeydewistania]

I do not value the opinion of someone from Farkasfalka, and no one in this thread should.

[Jakker City]

Let's be clear on a few things: I have never labelled The Embassy or anyone in their region as fascist or supporters of the ideology. I also don't agree that anyone should. I also don't think anyone who disagrees with this proposal should be labelled as such.

However I think there are some fundamental truths that must be considered:

1) The Security Council has passed Liberation proposals in the past largely revolving around the fact that a region displays/promotes elements of fascism and nazism. The SC has regularly taken a stand against these ideals.

2) While the game may allow fascist regions, the SC always has had the opportunity to fight against the spread/promotion of this ideology. What this proposal does is simply follow precedent of previous resolutions passed by this very body. From those very resolutions, language has included:

• "maintain[ing] diplomatic ties with several Nazi regions, including one previously liberated by this Assembly,"
• warn[ing] future regions from promoting fascism,"
• "leav[ing] the region open to invasion or to be vulnerable"

If the Security Council is against the promotion of these ideals, the body should be concerned about what The Embassy is doing even if it is not overt or active. I'll even ask a question to any region who currently holds embassies with The Embassy. Do you normally have diplomatic relations with regions that have embassies with fascist regions? And if any of us saw a region that has embassies with these type of regions, what would we think?

3) Overall, we seem to be giving The Embassy a pass because they are different apparently. Yet, The Ambassadors Reception has made it quite clear what this is all about:

Our prime aim is to have the most embassies in NationStates.

This is their main objective and they have shown a clear willingness to accept relations with any region, no matter how bad, just to have the most embassies. This is for attention and to make their region stand out. And they have definitely done that, but I would say that this has served to also give further attention and a platform for ideologies that the Security Council has consistently fought against. And what is funny is that the region would still have the most embassies in the world by a significant margin even if they decide to close embassies with any region that showcased problematic ideologies. So why not hold them responsible to do so? They have actively worked to make a name for themselves, which has indirectly built a larger platform for the regions they hold embassies with.

The Ambassadors Reception, your region has had 5 years to make a decision and I'm not sure that you all can be trusted to close them on your own. In fact, you all have had an embassy with KAISERREICH from the beginning (nearly 5 years)! This practice is not something new. You already have made your choice and your choice is clear. You only make things clearer here:

The worst case for us is that the Liberation goes through, and The Embassy gets destroyed. Regions come and go. We've seen well over 15,000 of our embassies CTE during our history. Another dead region is no big deal. We'll simply record our history, and start again. With a founder. And of course, we'll extend the hand of friendship by sending you an embassy request.

You just flat out admitted that an embassy indicates friendship. Therefore, not only should the Security Council not trust you all to close embassies on your own, you are blatantly showcasing that the region has always and will continue to remain friends with fascist and nazi regions. This should not be regarded as okay.

[Kuriko]

So let me get this straight. You want to liberate The Embassy in order to close fascist embassies, knowing full well that those won't be the only ones closed when it's invaded? And that when all those embassies are closed, you'll be effectively destroying the one thing that has driven this region for over 5 years and it's very being?

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to support this. The only offensive liberations the SC has ever passed were always on regions that were nazi/fascist themselves. Their own communities caused those liberations to pass, because those regions communities were nazi/fascist themselves and not because they share embassies with nazi/fascist regions. I'm aware that CCD contains information about their embassies, but CCD itself is/was heavily fascist in its own community which caused the passage of the liberation.

[Vippertooth33]

As administrator of Antifa and leader of The MT Army, I have used strong-arm tactics on Nazi/Fascist regions and those that form embassies with them, I have been doing it longer than most people have been playing NationStates.

Clearly The Embassy's modus operandi is to collect as many embassies as possible, not to spread hate.

I agree that they should have a moral duty to remove their fascist tag and end embassies with any Nazi/Fascist regions on NationStates, however I do not support liberating the region (effectively destroying it) to achieve this goal.

As such I will contact them to discuss.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Who appointed you (The Black Hawks) the moral police of a universal RMB that is designed to be a replacement forum? It's hardly a fascist safe space. I'm against this liberation, especially when it is not a fascist hub.

I don't care about precedent or the fact that the SC opposes fascism. Last I checked, this type of action was supposed to be against regions that are fascist in their own right, such as Nazi Europa. This is ridiculous.

[Lord Dominator]

Who appointed you (The Black Hawks) the moral police

This is not a TBH endorsed endeavor, any more that Jakker being a mod makes it a mod endorsed one

[The Reformed American Republic]

Who appointed you (The Black Hawks) the moral police

This is not a TBH endorsed endeavor, any more that Jakker being a mod makes it a mod endorsed one

Not officially anyway. What is your position on this? Do you just so happen to be in favor of this?

Oh, and by the way, the mods have clear standards that they will not act against a rule abiding region, so I know they don't endorse this. The Black Hawks don't have the same standards.

[Praeceps]

Funny how the first mention of Hitler in this thread was by you...

OOC: Reductio ad Hitlerum is a fallacy that infers that an argument supported by a nazi/hitler/fascsist is inherently wrong, that's what Jakker said here:

I would also question agreeing with nations that are part of the regions listed as their disapproval only shows that embassies with them does give them legitimacy and therefore, we need to act.

That's not what Jakker said though; he stated that the members of the regions that are fascist are opposed to this and that demonstrates they use it for publicity and support. Jakker's argument you quoted did not say that their argument was wrong for being fascist.

---

Personally, I find it rather pathetic that a region is so desperate for embassies that they will recognize fascist regions. Having a slightly bigger embassy count should not matter that much.

[Leppikania]

Strike us down and we shall become more powerful than you can imagine.

Recognizing that embassies also serve to add visibility and legitimacy to a region due to greater global presence,

As though the fascist regions are going to get noticed amidst the thousands of other embassies we have.

Understanding to this method as a form of attention-seeking similar to how The Embassy also holds every possible identity marker including Fascist,

You know, alongside the tags "Anti-Fascist" and "Democratic".

Who appointed you (The Black Hawks) the moral police of a universal RMB that is designed to be a replacement forum? It's hardly a fascist safe space. I'm against this liberation, especially when it is not a fascist hub.

I don't care about precedent or the fact that the SC opposes fascism. Last I checked, this type of action was supposed to be against regions that are fascist in their own right, such as Nazi Europa. This is ridiculous.

You know, I was going to type up an argument to this effect, but this post is pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

Personally, I find it rather pathetic that a region is so desperate for embassies that they will recognize fascist regions. Having a slightly bigger embassy count should not matter that much.

how dare you

[WayNeacTia]

I see little reason to liberate the region. Honestly Jakker, Mall already tried to liberate Haven and we saw how well that worked out didn't we? This is the exact same thing. There is no possible way you can deny the fact that if liberated, the Hawks will invade the region and close ALL of the embassies, not just the fascist ones.

Personally, I find it rather pathetic that a region is so desperate for embassies that they will recognize fascist regions. Having a slightly bigger embassy count should not matter that much.

how dare you

So Lepp, you support fascism now? Good to know.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Some suggestions for changes to the text of the draft.

The Security Council,

Defining an embassy as establishing formal diplomatic relations between two regions to increase communication,

Recognizing that embassies also serve to add visibility and legitimacy to a region due to a greater global presence,

Raising concerns to about the practices of The Embassy, an embassy-collecting region, that boasts of having the most embassies in the world,

Understanding to that this method as is a form of attention-seeking similar to how The Embassy also holds every possible identity marker including Fascist,

Noting that to reach their current collection of nearly 5,000 embassies, the region has not only widely accepted relations with regions when requested, but has also actively chosen to initiate relations,

Disgusted that they have pursued the establishment of relations with several regions that showcase varying levels of support of for fascism, Nazi symbolism, or advocating supremacy,

Expressing disappointment that the concern of giving legitimacy to these regions was communicated to The Ambassadors Reception and no action has taken place yet,

Conveying that this Security Council has not only advocated against the promotion of fascist and Nazi ideals in the past, but has also passed Liberations to leave regions who engage in such problematic behaviors open for invasion,

Inspired by the recent invasion of SECFanatics, which led to the removal of 2,000+ embassies including with many fascist regions, similar to those listed above,

Concluding that liberating The Embassy would serve to hold this region accountable by leaving it open to possible invasion which would allow for the closing of these embassies,

Hereby Liberates The Embassy.

As I've commented elsewhere I consider embassy collecting regions a pain in the fundamental, but not sure at this time whether I would support this proposal if it came to the vote.

[Kromerov]

This Liberation attempt seems more like an act of attempted bullying rather than an earnest proposal.
The Embassy, while a bit annoying for some, acts as a means of explaining the basics of NationStates Region Owning for those who are willing to learn with their various dispatches. If Liberated, what is to say that the Embassy won't suffer the same fate as many other raided regions? The closing of embassies with not just its fascist regions, but closing all their embassies.
This resolution very easily could destroy it, as more sinister raiders could use the opportunity to refound the region, destroying years of hard work even more.
Kromerov gives their formal opposition to this proposal.

Also why am I writing this at 6:21 AM. Send help

[Gorundu]

Furthermore, the Embassy only has a self-imposed obligation to create "the universal RMB equivalent of forum.nationstates.net" (from Codger), and they appear to take the same stance as NationStates Moderation regarding fascism. This is intended to be an artificial site feature; an emulation of the forums. In your opinion (as a player, not a moderator), should the forums ban fascists? If not, what's the difference? Just like NS moderators, the Embassy has no obligation to be a moral enforcer. The Embassy only has the obligation to create a universal RMB. They should not be sucked into our fight.

Jakker, I noticed you conveniently ignored this question: "In your opinion (as a player, not a moderator), should the forums ban fascists?"

Using the arguments you have constructed yourself and quoting your own words, you are, as someone who has volunteered to join the site staff as a forum moderator, "adding legitimacy and attention" to fascists by endorsing a site which explicitly has a policy to allow fascists. And if you believe this is not the case, then neither should you believe that The Embassy is "adding legitimacy and attention" to fascists.