NationStates

Kuriko wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Oh, well said, I absolutely agree with you.

Let me disclose something for the record:

I was contacted from an unassociated nation asking for CCD's assistance in defending Asia. We don't have an active raiding force, and could not have defended such a large scale raid regardless, but I did put together a plan that would have completely prevented the possibility of TBH refounding the region.

This plan was devised several days ago, and I contacted XKI via telegram, then later through Discord.

(Image)

Of course, I got no response... maybe because the author of this proposal would rather get their name on another SC resolution than actually defend this region.

So yeah, aside from the fact it's too little too late if TBH and the others really want to refound, let's not pretend that Kuriko actually cares about the natives of Asia... or any other region for that matter. Solidly against

We don't work or associate with fascists. Especially fascists who have recruitment bombed us many times.

Yeah not really gonna fault 10KI for that one.

Tinhampton wrote:

In her submitted version of "Liberate Asia," Kuriko wrote:the raider forces will grief the region

...you said on my version of Liberate Asia that no defender had considered such a proposal as of Monday "because it's potentially not a griefing operation... don't submit it until it's absolutely clear it's a griefing operation"? How did that magically change with the addition of about thirty more pilers and the ejection of a handful of some would-be defenders? (I had asked Whims - the longest-standing native - for their opinion on the principle of Liberate Asia via telegram, but they never responded.)

Hell no, until and unless natives start falling victim to the banhammer.

It was determined by defender commanders in Libcord that possible griefing could be imminent due to the amount of raiders. Your proposal, Tinhampton, was a play and joke on a TBH raid and possible extreme outcome that should not be turned into a joke at all.

Kuriko wrote:Our objective is clear, stop you from passwordingvthe region and deter you from destroying the native community. That's pretty obvious.

And still I ask: has there been any indication of the community being under threat? Whatever community you refer to, at this point - they don't seem like a particularly active bunch to me.

Tinhampton wrote:

In her submitted version of "Liberate Asia," Kuriko wrote:the raider forces will grief the region

...you said on my version of Liberate Asia that no defender had considered such a proposal as of Monday "because it's potentially not a griefing operation... don't submit it until it's absolutely clear it's a griefing operation"? How did that magically change with the addition of about thirty more pilers and the ejection of a handful of some would-be defenders? (I had asked Whims - the longest-standing native - for their opinion on the principle of Liberate Asia via telegram, but they never responded.)

Hell no, until and unless natives start falling victim to the banhammer.

I'm not sure how going from 50 to 70 pilers, adding a Border Control Regional Officer, and ejecting the defenders that had built some influence in the region makes the change "magical". The situation went from a tough but very possible liberation operation to a very difficult operation, the raiders increased their hold on the region, and they've shown no sign of leaving.

A much better question is why does it need a lib less now than when you wrote a proposal?

I do not support it. TBH has only refounded regions that were anti-fascist. Plus, Asia likes TBH coming,[proposal=]Liberate Asia[/proposal] I reject it.

I am willing to help in any way that I can. I hope you can let me aid them!

No fun allowed

Controlitia wrote:I'm not sure how going from 50 to 70 pilers, adding a Border Control Regional Officer, and ejecting the defenders that had built some influence in the region makes the change "magical".

There's nothing magical about it. The question is how a consolidated hold obviously makes us want to banject everyone and refound. This is a question you and Kuriko are desperately trying to dodge as hard as you possibly can.

Controlitia wrote:The situation went from a tough but very possible liberation operation to a very difficult operation, the raiders increased their hold on the region, and they've shown no sign of leaving.

I am going to point out that raiders have non-destructively held regions for much, much longer, and those regions never got griefed. Why would we not improve our hold on the region when defenders are coming at us from every angle?

Raidoland wrote:I do not support it. TBH has only refounded regions that were anti-fascist. Plus, Asia likes TBH coming,[proposal=]Liberate Asia[/proposal] I reject it.

This is a ludicrous claim to say Asia enjoys being raided. Not 40 days ago they were complaining on their RMB about being raided and did not appreciate it. I think this speaks pretty clearly to the native's opinions as well.

https://i.imgur.com/zIxi5n6.png

Those don't look like happy natives to me.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:

Kuriko wrote:Our objective is clear, stop you from passwordingvthe region and deter you from destroying the native community. That's pretty obvious.

And still I ask: has there been any indication of the community being under threat? Whatever community you refer to, at this point - they don't seem like a particularly active bunch to me.

I didn't realize a community being inactive disqualifies their right to their region. If a bank if left unguarded, does that mean its legal to steal the money?

Grea Kriopia wrote:I didn't realize a community being inactive disqualifies their right to their region. If a bank if left unguarded, does that mean its legal to steal the money?

If a ghost town has nobody living in it, I think we do have the right to move in, yes.

Aurum Raider wrote:

Grea Kriopia wrote:I didn't realize a community being inactive disqualifies their right to their region. If a bank if left unguarded, does that mean its legal to steal the money?

If a ghost town has nobody living in it, I think we do have the right to move in, yes.

Wrong, on so many levels.

I feel like there's a few points on y'alls side that have a kernel of value to them but are ultimately obfuscation tactics in the context of reality, namely: (1) we haven't heard back from the natives yet and (2) we haven't said we're griefing it yet.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:And still I ask: has there been any indication of the community being under threat? Whatever community you refer to, at this point - they don't seem like a particularly active bunch to me.

(1) is obviously outside anyone in this thread's control. However, just because a native hasn't checked their telegrams for a few days doesn't mean the region is woefully inactive. Additionally, we're not really in the business of determining "how active is active enough to be defended". If someone, somewhere takes any kind of value from the fact that on a site called NationStates they have a home called Asia, then I'm against it being taken away from them, even if they don't log in as often as I do. There are also lots of legitimate reasons they may not have logged on yet, namely one of many different real life situations, a lot of which are even more prevalent now than ever given the ongoing global public health crisis. Lastly, the language of your comment seems pretty... "well would it be that bad if Asia got raided"? That's simply not a logic I agree with for the reason explained above.

(2) is a bit of smoke and mirrors. Maybe, even probably, you're making the claim no one wants to grief in good faith. But ultimately that is unverified and unverifiable, and asserting it loudly is a tactic to avoid this lib being passed, the ultimate effect of which would be to render impossible the very thing you're promising there's no risk of in the first place. Do you understand why that seems like you're monopolizing the ability to win the argument in a way that there is a risk could be disingenuous with catastrophic effect?
Keeping in mind every organization involved in this operation is a griefing organization by policy (or has no stated policy), even if they have not acted upon that policy in years, and that large raids conducted without support of NPA or ERN pilers are rare, it leads to me to think the risk is substantially greater than 0% that this will become a griefing operation. And saying I can't disprove it denies that since you have the agency in this situation, I'm just playing a game of probabilities.

Lastly, someone raised a fair point here: the queue is long right now. Let's get this in the queue now. If, when it comes up for vote in two weeks or so it's become clear this is not a griefing operation, the resolution will be sabotaged and no GCR or vote-rich UCR will vote for it, effectively killing it.

HumanSanity wrote:(1) is obviously outside anyone in this thread's control. However, just because a native hasn't checked their telegrams for a few days doesn't mean the region is woefully inactive. Additionally, we're not really in the business of determining "how active is active enough to be defended". If someone, somewhere takes any kind of value from the fact that on a site called NationStates they have a home called Asia, then I'm against it being taken away from them, even if they don't log in as often as I do. There are also lots of legitimate reasons they may not have logged on yet, namely one of many different real life situations, a lot of which are even more prevalent now than ever given the ongoing global public health crisis.

I think this is a very valid and good point.

It would be an even better point if the natives in Grea Kriopia's image, and Whims - the nation Timhampton mentioned - hadn't been active today.
The natives have logged in - they've been on the site. They just haven't responded to you.

HumanSanity wrote:Lastly, the language of your comment seems pretty... "well would it be that bad if Asia got raided"? That's simply not a logic I agree with for the reason explained above.

The perspective you hold is not universal. For raiders, it would not be that bad, because it makes a dead region more interesting.

HumanSanity wrote:Lastly, someone raised a fair point here: the queue is long right now. Let's get this in the queue now. If, when it comes up for vote in two weeks or so it's become clear this is not a griefing operation, the resolution will be sabotaged and no GCR or vote-rich UCR will vote for it, effectively killing it.

I hope you understand that even if we want to ditch the region tomorrow, we still have a vested interest in seeing this bill fail.

Aurum Raider wrote:It would be an even better point if the natives in Grea Kriopia's image, and Whims - the nation Timhampton mentioned - hadn't been active today.
The natives have logged in - they've been on the site. They just haven't responded to you.

Even then, there are so many intervening factors at play. I don't respond to every telegram/PM I get the first time I log in after I receive it, in fact I rarely do if it's something of importance where I want to think it over. I think it's reasonable to expect they might not either. Additionally, raider piles are scary and confusing moments for natives, they don't always understand what's happening, why, or that there are options to stop what is going on. Defenders do our best with outreach, but all of that combined makes me want to give a grace period of flexibility and give follow up opportunities.

Aurum Raider wrote:The perspective you hold is not universal. For raiders, it would not be that bad, because it makes a dead region more interesting.

Interesting for you, creating activity for you, more interesting from your perspective. I think this argument always centers raiders when it should center natives and what they want.

Aurum Raider wrote:I hope you understand that even if we want to ditch the region tomorrow, we still have a vested interest in seeing this bill fail.

The question is whether that will be good for Asia or, generally, something the Security Council supports/endorses. That's also not really responsive to what I said.

Grea Kriopia wrote:I didn't realize a community being inactive disqualifies their right to their region. If a bank if left unguarded, does that mean its legal to steal the money?

It’s completely legal to raid, and equally legal to burn and refound. I think the term you’re looking for is “moral”, perhaps.

Not that I said anything remotely close to that - I merely remarked I had seen very little of the “native community” that’s supposedly under threat.

HumanSanity wrote:Lastly, the language of your comment seems pretty... "well would it be that bad if Asia got raided"? That's simply not a logic I agree with for the reason explained above.

I mean, clearly I don’t think it bad if a region get’s raided. That is, however, not the point I was making - as explained above, I simply noted I had not seen much activity in the region from it’s “native community”.

As for 2), I am merely arguing against a proposal I do not believe serves any purpose. If that counts as suspicious in your mind, I doubt I can convince you otherwise. (Unless I misunderstood your post, in which case, my apologies)

Besides, supporting liberations is hardly beneficial for raiders in general, even if this particular case doesn’t harm our interests.

Aurum Raider wrote:

Controlitia wrote:I'm not sure how going from 50 to 70 pilers, adding a Border Control Regional Officer, and ejecting the defenders that had built some influence in the region makes the change "magical".

There's nothing magical about it. The question is how a consolidated hold obviously makes us want to banject everyone and refound. This is a question you and Kuriko are desperately trying to dodge as hard as you possibly can.

I didn't realize that I had to explain why a lib was reasonable when I was replying to someone who wrote a lib a few days ago. Your consolidated hold doesn't indicate a refound more than a coordinated op between several major raiding orgs to take and hold a RL-named region with a well-endorsed delegate already did. It does mean that a liberation resolution is more important because it will be more difficult for defenders to stop your refound when or if you decide to do it.

Aurum Raider wrote:The situation went from a tough but very possible liberation operation to a very difficult operation, the raiders increased their hold on the region, and they've shown no sign of leaving.

I am going to point out that raiders have non-destructively held regions for much, much longer, and those regions never got griefed.[/quote]

This is a larger, more coordinated op than I've seen in a while to take and hold an named region of some size. This is exactly how refounds have been done in the past. You're in position to do a refound and you are becoming more in in position to do a refound daily, not less. The argument that you haven't done this in a while is a good reason to think that you'll try to do it now, unless you believe a raider when they say they won't use a griefing tactic. Since you'd say the same thing if you were going for a refound, pardon me if I don't take it as compelling evidence.

A Bloodred Moon wrote:Besides, supporting liberations is hardly beneficial for raiders in general, even if this particular case doesn’t harm our interests.

That's true, so we shouldn't expect you to hold back on any legal tactic to prevent it.

There have been questions about TEP's involvement in this raid. Hopefully I can shed some light on the matter, although I'm not sure how much I'm supposed to reveal.

The Slatos raid, since it was mentioned, was led in large part by TEP. It had a TEP point, and it was led in the EPSA server. This was because Slatos was a known individual to us for OOC drama, and evaded his ban from TEP and attempted to infiltrate the Magisterium by assuming citizenship via a different identity. TNP also had grudges against Slatos for completely different reasons, but they were a valuable ally in the op.

The EPSA is non-aligned. I know in Gameplay it's hard not to think in terms of black and white, but TEP does what it wants to do and it is committed towards that goal. When LD approached me about this raid, he explicitly told me that there would be "no region destruction." So I accepted his invitation. If it becomes apparent that it was a precursor to a refound or something more nefarious, well, then I was very mistaken. However, nothing at the moment (on my end) seems to indicate such.

I think you can try to liberate Asia, but I don't really think it'll ultimately matter.

Native approval has been obtained.

https://www.imgur.com/a/Ii6ZFdi

Kuriko wrote:Native approval has been obtained.

https://www.imgur.com/a/Ii6ZFdi

Two things:

1) I'm still curious at which point in this process you asked.

2) This late in the day, and still having a phone with over 50% battery? Madness.

4/23/2020, 7:08:57 PM EDT: Lost Girls of Zenussia was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:54 PM EDT: Great Union Belkan was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:46 PM EDT: Daily Honey was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:31 PM EDT: Chinese Confederacy was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 6:56:14 PM EDT: Xiauni was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.

Natives have been banjected from Asia with TBH at the helm. I don't know what will happen when they switch leads, but I bet there will be more banjections.

Aurum Raider wrote:

Grea Kriopia wrote:I didn't realize a community being inactive disqualifies their right to their region. If a bank if left unguarded, does that mean its legal to steal the money?

If a ghost town has nobody living in it, I think we do have the right to move in, yes.

But there are people living in this ‘ghost town’. And you don’t have the right to kick them out either.

Kuriko wrote:

4/23/2020, 7:08:57 PM EDT: Lost Girls of Zenussia was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:54 PM EDT: Great Union Belkan was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:46 PM EDT: Daily Honey was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:31 PM EDT: Chinese Confederacy was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 6:56:14 PM EDT: Xiauni was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.

Natives have been banjected from Asia with TBH at the helm. I don't know what will happen when they switch leads, but I bet there will be more banjections.

And your proposal stops this how?

Do you have 97 defenders ready? If not, will two weeks buy you the time you need?

Kuriko wrote:

4/23/2020, 7:08:57 PM EDT: Lost Girls of Zenussia was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:54 PM EDT: Great Union Belkan was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:46 PM EDT: Daily Honey was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 7:03:31 PM EDT: Chinese Confederacy was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.
4/23/2020, 6:56:14 PM EDT: Xiauni was ejected and banned from Asia by The Infinity Engine.

Natives have been banjected from Asia with TBH at the helm. I don't know what will happen when they switch leads, but I bet there will be more banjections.

Astute deductions

The Atlae Isles wrote:There have been questions about TEP's involvement in this raid. Hopefully I can shed some light on the matter, although I'm not sure how much I'm supposed to reveal.

The Slatos raid, since it was mentioned, was led in large part by TEP. It had a TEP point, and it was led in the EPSA server. This was because Slatos was a known individual to us for OOC drama, and evaded his ban from TEP and attempted to infiltrate the Magisterium by assuming citizenship via a different identity. TNP also had grudges against Slatos for completely different reasons, but they were a valuable ally in the op.

The EPSA is non-aligned. I know in Gameplay it's hard not to think in terms of black and white, but TEP does what it wants to do and it is committed towards that goal. When LD approached me about this raid, he explicitly told me that there would be "no region destruction." So I accepted his invitation. If it becomes apparent that it was a precursor to a refound or something more nefarious, well, then I was very mistaken. However, nothing at the moment (on my end) seems to indicate such.

I think you can try to liberate Asia, but I don't really think it'll ultimately matter.

Region destruction includes ejecting and banning native nations, which has clearly begun.

Mallorea and Riva wrote:

Numero Capitan wrote:Interesting approach, we have kept them busy with defender nations to eject for the time being but due to the increasing number of high influence border control officers this will become mathematically impossible to continue and natives will be next on the block.

If natives are ejected in this region I assume you're happy for me to refer back to this and dismiss any future comments you make as part of a proven agenda of deliberate deception so that we can safely ignore your views in the future?

If the ejections are followed by a password with the intent to refound then yes, absolutely. I think you'd be partially incorrect in doing so, because this isn't a deception of any kind, but you have no way of knowing that so I can't expect you to believe it.

Another remark to remember.