[Withdrawn] Liberate Asia

[Mallorea and Riva]

You seem convinced that TBH intended to refound even after a Liberation proposal was put into the queue...

So why else did Free HK not follow their own orders when they had no use for the delegacy and nothing left to spend their influence on but a password?

Because it's way easier to not do something than it is to do something? Because retaining powers and kicking fendas in the shins until they realize they need to strip the power is fun? Because the player behind Free HK is an absolute madman hellbent on passwording the region for literally no reason? I suppose all are possible answers, but man that last one doesn't make any sense.

The extent you were all going to to fight this suggests you thought you could drag this liberation proposal through the mud enough to try it. You'd have to be incredibly bored to have dragged this out for seven pages for any other reason.

Numero, if we had passworded the region this update (or next update... or next update... or next update... or next update) then the Liberation would pass with flying colors.

[Dyllon Avocado]

But if you're all already Hawks you've already got feathers. That is like giving your soldiers a piece of someone elses dead skin and convincing them them they should be happy about it.

Hmmm. A grim analogy that doesn't quite work. Birds do have to grow their feathers, y'know. Older Hawks have more feathers, newer Hawks still have to grow them in.

Very good point. And not all hawks can grow feathers with such cool design, which is a symbol of individuality!

[Lord Dominator]

A lucky update glitch

Yes, because you'd obviously have liberated it if that hadn't happened

and a stupidly high pile isn't anything that gets my respect.

Don't care

[World Assembly Nation 665]

Hmmm. A grim analogy that doesn't quite work. Birds do have to grow their feathers, y'know. Older Hawks have more feathers, newer Hawks still have to grow them in.

Very good point. And not all hawks can grow feathers with such cool design, which is a symbol of individuality!

I know right? Silly fendas.

[Aclion]

They needed nations out to impose a password too. The withdrawal would have been necessary either way.



Which is why it was proposed. Thanks for confirming the need for the proposal for a second time Mall.

Wut. You're saying that we were pulling out to put a password on, and that the only thing that could stop it would be putting a Liberation resolution in the queue... but there WAS a Liberation resolution in the queue... so why would we still be trying to refound?

You're not still trying to refound. You've fucked off.

[Lord Dominator]

Wut. You're saying that we were pulling out to put a password on, and that the only thing that could stop it would be putting a Liberation resolution in the queue... but there WAS a Liberation resolution in the queue... so why would we still be trying to refound?

You're not still trying to refound. You've fucked off.

We weren't try to refound at all.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Wut. You're saying that we were pulling out to put a password on, and that the only thing that could stop it would be putting a Liberation resolution in the queue... but there WAS a Liberation resolution in the queue... so why would we still be trying to refound?

You're not still trying to refound. You've fucked off.

... Yeah. Exactly.

[Lesbian Pirates from Outer Space]

I don't really care anymore what your plans were (refounding, passwording to show that you could do it, or "just" banning most natives and damage the region as much as you could without putting too much effort into it) and whether the SC Liberation or our deployment changed any of them since it's all moot now.

I count it as a liberation for internal purposes (as opposed to a defence, or detag, or support) because the procedure was the same as if it were a liberation attempt, but you can call it however it makes you feel better.

Because it's way easier to not do something than it is to do something? Because retaining powers and kicking fendas in the shins until they realize they need to strip the power is fun? Because the player behind Free HK is an absolute madman hellbent on passwording the region for literally no reason?

I doubt they need to be a madman or have a reason for anything they do.

Numero, if we had passworded the region this update (or next update... or next update... or next update... or next update) then the Liberation would pass with flying colors.

Sure. But moving in now to preempt any "more ejections"/"passwording"/"campaigning for a resolution" scenario and clear the banlist as soon as possible was easier. So, we did that.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I don't really care anymore what your plans were (refounding, passwording to show that you could do it, or "just" banning most natives and damage the region as much as you could without putting too much effort into it) and whether the SC Liberation or our deployment changed any of them since it's all moot now.

I count it as a liberation for internal purposes (as opposed to a defence, or detag, or support) because the procedure was the same as if it were a liberation attempt, but you can call it however it makes you feel better.

Because it's way easier to not do something than it is to do something? Because retaining powers and kicking fendas in the shins until they realize they need to strip the power is fun? Because the player behind Free HK is an absolute madman hellbent on passwording the region for literally no reason?

I doubt they need to be a madman or have a reason for anything they do.

Numero, if we had passworded the region this update (or next update... or next update... or next update... or next update) then the Liberation would pass with flying colors.

Sure. But moving in now to preempt any "more ejections"/"passwording"/"campaigning for a resolution" scenario and clear the banlist as soon as possible was easier. So, we did that.

Is this Numero again?

The point is that it would render the entire argument that TBH's plan was to move people out only to toss a password on pointless. So the conspiracy theory goes out the window.

[Lesbian Pirates from Outer Space]

Is this Numero again?

The point is that it would render the entire argument that TBH's plan was to move people out only to toss a password on pointless. So the conspiracy theory goes out the window.

It's Fratt. That was my first post in this topic. As of today's minor update all arguments about whichever plans you did have or did not have are pointless, yes. Practically at this point knowing whether Free HK meant to password or not or yes but only if he casually had the chance to, are unimportant since they cannot do it anymore.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Is this Numero again?

The point is that it would render the entire argument that TBH's plan was to move people out only to toss a password on pointless. So the conspiracy theory goes out the window.

It's Fratt. That was my first post in this topic. As of today's minor update all arguments about whichever plans you did have or did not have are pointless, yes. Practically at this point knowing whether Free HK meant to password or not or yes but only if he casually had the chance to, are unimportant since they cannot do it anymore.

Oh, hi Fratt.

Well the arguments are fun, even if they are pointless. Author can probably request a lock since they've withdrawn the proposal.

[Lesbian Pirates from Outer Space]

It's Fratt. That was my first post in this topic. As of today's minor update all arguments about whichever plans you did have or did not have are pointless, yes. Practically at this point knowing whether Free HK meant to password or not or yes but only if he casually had the chance to, are unimportant since they cannot do it anymore.

Oh, hi Fratt.

Well the arguments are fun, even if they are pointless.

Probably. "Major benefit of securing the delegacy of Asia ASAP: this debate ends and I don't have to read any more of what Mall says."

[Praeceps]

Congratulations to the defenders for liberating the region and to Kuriko for yet another effective proposal.

[Lord Dominator]

to Kuriko for yet another effective proposal.

Ugh

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Let me counter a few things here:

The dogpile from TBH on Kuriko is cute, but the faux outrage that we don't happen to take known Crashers at their word when they say they aren't going to destroy a region they're actively in the process of destroying isn't. If anyone is in any doubt that TBH were engaging in regional destruction they should go take a look at the activity page on Asia and filter it to ejections.

Given the size of the pile before TBH withdrew the only option to protect against a password and completed grief was a liberation. It's that simple.

Your definitions of "destruction" may vary, but ejections do not at all mean we intend to lock and/or refound a region. Ejections occur of defenders, en masse, of natives who are also raiding the endocount in region, and of other "security threats" even under the stricter world of "non-destructive" terms that some of our allies have operated under. Even without that restriction, we'll often eject for fun. Whether or not you want to take our word on the end goal or not is also up to you, but there's some easy to spot signs of when TBH is actually serious - and they're more than just "ejections" or "the pile got big."

---

Also remarkably convenient how all the regional officers withdrew or resigned World Assembly status apart from the one who had the influence to impose a password and would have taken the delegacy if we hadn't moved in.

That same nation posted the 'withdraw' order, so you can't pretend that was some accident.

Glad we could liberate this with a significantly larger update force than the raiders could muster to take it in the first place

Welcome back natives of Asia

You either do not have much experience with TBH's refound operations, or have not observed them very carefully. Anyone who observed a few of our operations, looking entirely at public info, could easily spot some of the following process:

>Wait until you have enough influence to at least just eject every remaining native, plus at good chunk of extra wiggle room (and, that it's in the right sized chunks, because 1000 x5 doesn't help you if you need 5000)
>Issue a withdraw order after an update, to give maximum withdrawal time with minimum notice to defenders
>Shortly before the next update, a couple RO's drain their influence ejecting pilers, and *maybe* natives but only if we have influence to spare
>Lock applied before update, so there's no chance of lib at lower endo count levels
>Cycle delegacy as needed to remove remaining natives using former RO's, without the extra cost of ejecting via BC

Some things you might notice are *not* on that list include:
>Updating the WFE to include the telegrammed piler orders about 12 hours after that order was sent via regionwide TG
>Multiple delegates resigning WA and leaving instead of handing off the delegacy
>RO's with several hundred SPDR leaving without draining it on ejections
>Doing any of this without enough influence to eject reaming natives *or* lock

Pay extra attention to that last one. You can say "the one who had the influence to impose a password" all you want, but it's nonetheless factually untrue that Free HK has enough influence to place the only kind of password useful to raiders - the secret kind. Not even *close* to it, in fact. Might want to break out a calculator before making such claims.

Also, I think I have whiplash at the violent swinging here between "30e is too much to take" and "ohoho look at how easily we trampled [the op you'd ended already]"

---

Mall hit the chaotic and ever-changing story re:Natives well enough already that I don't need to repeat his points

---

LD also hit some of the other obvious points that I hit above, re: "why this should have obviously not been a refound to a keenly observant eye," but I figured I'd add more detail to those, as above.

---

Since the point is being pressed:

Well that's tragic for the point you were trying to make with your selective quoting, since the ejections were not followed by a password, and the intent that has been explained throughout this thread was not one geared towards refounding.

And yet all of the little duckies were lining up perfectly in a row for Free HK to password the region and just 'happened' to not withdraw or resign WA when they told everyone else to



Sorry that we didn't let your operation succeed so that we could fulfil your criteria for ignoring you, but we fulfilled mine so I'll be taking your opinion with the requisite vault of salt regardless

Once more, your math is...wrong. Just wrong. But if it also makes you feel better -




The correct answer is halfway between "I think it will be hilariously funny to make defenders or natives remove Free HK from Asia because I'm a nerd" and "it seems like a shame to just let 1000 SPDR decay, so let's make either the fendas or the natives boot me" (but really, more of the former than the latter).

In case it hasn't been made abundantly clear by now either, by the way: I (Free HK), only added the withdrawal order to the WFE, 12 hours *after* it had gone out via every other conceivable method, because I pointed out to the people leading the OP (who, in fact, were not me), that it still had piling orders in it. You keep putting a lot of weight on what is ultimately the fact that I was on my way to follow the withdrawal orders before...noticing that the WFE should be fixed, and deciding that actually it would be more memey to make someone go Tienanmen on Free HK.

---

And as it turns out, the Black Hawks really were preparing to leave before this Liberation came to vote!

They needed nations out to impose a password too. The withdrawal would have been necessary either way.

I really, really, really, want to stress that you should receive a training course in influence math.

Because, once more with feeling, the influence left among RO's was not near enough to remove remaining natives and remaining pilers down to even minimum password cost. I could *barely* have afforded the minimum password cost, and we weren't even near that floor yet, and lacked the influence to get there, either. I had about 1/3 of what would have been needed to just eject Whims as delegate, a seat that I certainly was not securely switched into, as we demonstrated the capability to do three or four times in a few beforehand, in this operation. Even if our game was, by some act of trickery, to refound, even after using so much prior influence in sub-optimal manners, surely the strategy would have been to "lock, eject all natives, and refound before the SC Lib passed," and not "lock the region, stare grumpily at Whims while being unable to eject him, and then watch as the SC Lib passes?"

---

I count it as a liberation for internal purposes (as opposed to a defence, or detag, or support) because the procedure was the same as if it were a liberation attempt, but you can call it however it makes you feel better.

-snip-

Sure. But moving in now to preempt any "more ejections"/"passwording"/"campaigning for a resolution" scenario and clear the banlist as soon as possible was easier. So, we did that.

Cleaning up the stadium after the game is quite an important job, but I'd call it a cleanup, not a Liberation. "Liberation" Implies it was freed by force, and that there was an opponent remaining, not that the last occurrence of any contest was 24 hours prior. Call it what you want "for internal purposes," but for PR purposes, I think you'll find calling things like this a Lib is a bit of a hard sell.

I doubt they need to be a madman or have a reason for anything they do.

I have reasons! And those reasons often do in fact make Atagait say "Souls you absolute madman" !!!

---

In conclusion, this was a poor proposal that unnecessarily trodd on prior work, alienated potential supporters, and which stood as on odd outlier - the first serious anti-raider SC lib in ages, claiming to be of vital importance, while the operation was not particularly notable among its peers. Are we entering into another era in which we should expect this for every single operation? I seem to recall the SC growing tired of that in the past.

Also, #FindPenny

[Daytime to Night]

chop

I know how much you love a selective crop on screenshots, can you explain your reason for cutting that one off before the obvious comma in the sentence?

to Kuriko for yet another effective proposal.

Ugh

Ngl, I'm 100% fed up of the TBH attitude towards Kuri. It's classless, targeted and not 'memey'. This game is meant to be a game, not an environment where you get endlessly attacked every time you play your character (gross OOC people aside). That has a real life effect on people and its not fair.

Quit with the 10000 Islands spam and embassy requests too. You're not Lardyland and noone is giving it back to you.

[World Assembly Nation 665]

chop

I know how much you love a selective crop on screenshots, can you explain your reason for cutting that one off before the obvious comma in the sentence?

Ugh

Ngl, I'm 100% fed up of the TBH attitude towards Kuri. It's classless, targeted and not 'memey'. This game is meant to be a game, not an environment where you get endlessly attacked every time you play your character (gross OOC people aside). That has a real life effect on people and its not fair.

Quit with the 10000 Islands spam and embassy requests too. You're not Lardyland and noone is giving it back to you.

This entire thread has turned into a meme. All the replies we've made have been on point and to counter your side's, which have essentially gotten the equivalent of a "no u." If you expect us to not point out flaws in what you call a 'liberation' or 'successful operation against TBH and friends', why is this thread here? You're not going to get praise for every action you or Kuriko do/perform. Welcome to the public spotlight of being the WA Secretary-General, you're going to get criticized/critiqued. Yet no one here is bullying Kuriko or harrassing him/her. It's become a tangled mess of logical fallacies that keep building because your side is deflective.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

chop

I know how much you love a selective crop on screenshots, can you explain your reason for cutting that one off before the obvious comma in the sentence?

Unrelated operational advice. Not a conspiracy, just OPSEC.

Also "you're bullying the author of the thread concerning your op by replying to the topic, on topic," has to be the worst take I've seen in years.

On the other hand, I've not seen someone as determined as you have been in this thread to dodge the meat of the post entirely, and move the goalposts rather than reply to anywhere someone has called you on getting something wrong, in years either; so that's two awards you can take home.

[Lord Dominator]

Ugh

Ngl, I'm 100% fed up of the TBH attitude towards Kuri. It's classless, targeted and not 'memey'. This game is meant to be a game, not an environment where you get endlessly attacked every time you play your character (gross OOC people aside). That has a real life effect on people and its not fair.

Would you prefer that I cut off Kuriko's name there? My entire reason for endlessly arguing remains the same: combating the stupid idea that this proposal changed anything about our plans, which is what I was responding to there.

[Twobagger]

This game is meant to be a game, not an environment where you get endlessly attacked every time you play your character (gross OOC people aside). That has a real life effect on people and its not fair.

I totally agree - it would be horrible to have a bunch of people from one region gang up on one person just for playing this game (gross OOC people aside, as you note). Imagine if one person was being treated like less of a person by many members of one region or team, just for being on the other 'team' in this game. That would certainly be classless and targeted. It's a very obviously wrong and even vile thing to do, and it certainly does have a real life effect on people.

But that's not what is happening here.

Simply put, if Kuriko and others want to imply that we are lying about our intentions here, despite all the evidence, that's certainly their prerogative. But these statements, made IC, demand IC responses.

[Daytime to Night]

Of course if Souls had resigned WA and left the region there would be no endless argument, but he didn't so we had to account for all possibilities. The selective cropping of Discord comments and exaggerated hyperbole doesn't really quell my suspicions.

Twobagger, you knew that your choices would get an IC reaction on the basis of regional policies you upheld and nurtured for the majority of your time in this game. Sorry if you feel you have had some overreaction, I've not seen that, but it doesn't really give TBH license to be some spammy memergarten six months on.

[Honeydewistania]

Why are we still discussing about a withdrawn proposal?

[Sedgistan]

There's often some "afters" to sort out. The thread will die when no-one is interested in it any more (or it'll get locked if nothing productive is coming out of the discussion).

[Aclion]

I know how much you love a selective crop on screenshots, can you explain your reason for cutting that one off before the obvious comma in the sentence?

snip

...so that's a no then

[World Assembly Nation 665]

snip

...so that's a no then

Souls answered that, I just didn't edit the quote to exclude that bit. Regardless, this consersation is just going to go in circles consistently until the mods or Kuriko lock it.