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[DISCUSSION] On Extra Detail in Proposals

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Bormiar
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[DISCUSSION] On Extra Detail in Proposals

Postby Bormiar » Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:46 pm

It’s unlike me to put much thought into this, but I’ve been inside for almost the entirety of the past 3 weeks :P.

This isn't my opinion, and it’s also not consistent with my writing, but I figure it’s something that’s not talked about as much as it should, and the argument has merit.




I (this all is my opinion before the next line break) would distinguish substantive parts of a proposal into descriptors and supplements. Descriptors answer what the nominee is and why you’re commending/condemning it. In other words, a descriptor defines the nominee. Descriptors could be the nominee’s ideology (also government like “democracy”), its foreign presence (major allies, major enemies, organization, region’s it is in if it’s a nation), its genre(s) of the game (e.g. roleplay, gameplay), its presence within that/those genre(s) (e.g. R/D alignment, general significance), its size (for regions), major events within its history (i.e. consequential changes in another descriptor, such as changing military alignment), etc. Naturally, these descriptors do not only apply when currently being the case. If the region was once a major defender region, that’s relevant to a proposal. Here are some examples of descriptors:

  • Nasicournia was an important member of the Alliance Defense Network and a defender-oriented region.
  • Sunset is a talented, long-time future tech roleplayer.
  • The North Pacific is a democracy.
  • TITO does not use switchers.
  • The Pacific was couped in 2003 by Francos Spain, making it no longer a democratic government. Many coups, however, do not shape or define the region, so they would not be a descriptor.

The idea is that if you can answer the descriptors, you know exactly what the nominee is. Many older players have observed each nominee as a primary source, so they can answer all the descriptors. While they cannot give lots of details or examples, (for this reason) they still have a far greater capacity to write and vote on proposals well than others.

Supplements are examples of the nominees actions. Unlike many descriptors (e.g. long-time defender region), a single supplement cannot fill a proposal. Here are some examples of supplements:

  • Gatesville provided support in the Douria coup of Osiris (not defining to Gatesville, however “Gatesville lended support to coups often” would be a descriptor).
  • A Mean Old Man wrote “The Foreign Farce” (whereas “A Mean Old Man is a propagandist” would be a descriptor).
  • Koem Kab owns x number of art from Soops (whereas “Koem Kab is very rich” would be a descriptor).

For reference, here are a few recent resolutions (which I consider to be standard) color-coded by descriptors and supplements (the first pre-ambulatory clause in Gatesville Inc is just a conceptual argument, so it doesn’t apply):


Red - Descriptor
Blue - Supplements

The Security Council,

Believing that posthumous condemnations ought not to be invalidated by the Security Council for its nominee’s demise, as condemnations serve to recognize and provide an example of unethical actions as well as create a moral basis behind liberations and future condemnations,

Recognizing Gatesville Inc to be the remnants of Gatesville, a militaristic organization zealously devoted to the creation of chaos and misery,

Scolding Gatesville Inc for its perpetrations of a month-long coup d’etat of Osiris in 2013, in which Osiris’ rogue delegate, the Dourian Embassy, as a desperate attempt to keep its position and prevent the legitimate delegate from taking power, chose to align itself with Gatesville Inc, who preceded to eject prominent natives, suppress the Regional Message Board which had been dominated by members of the Osiran community and lawful government, replace the distressed region’s flag - a prominent symbol of Osiran culture - with Gateville’s flag, and eventually indirectly destroy the Kemetic Republic of Osiris,

Admonishing Gatesville, the predecessor to Gatesville Inc made up of many of them same members, organizational structure, and leadership as Gatesville Inc, for its roles in promoting the instability of numerous prominent, efficient, and developed regions, such as:
  • The 2008 rogue delegacy in The North Pacific by its contemporary delegate Lewis and Clark (Westwind), in which Gatesville supported Westwind’s choice to dissolve the constitution, change the communication method used in the North Pacific, disband the North Pacific Army, and establish the “Crimson Order” as the new government. Gatesville threated to “terminate the interests” of the legitimate North Pacific community, supported the rogue delegate with over 30 endorsements, and even supported attempted invasions of the Rejected Realms and Lazarus (twice) to distract soldiers from fighting for the North Pacific’s freedom,
  • Threatening the sovereignty of the North Pacific a year before the Lewis and Clark coup in supporting an Emperor Matthius rogue delegacy, in which a group of un-endorsement campaigners depleted the legitimate delegate Great Bright Mum’s endorsements and endorse vice-delegate Emperor Matthius, illegally forcing them into the delegacy. Emperor Matthius used this event as a platform to then eject its endorsers into the Rejected Realms, move there itself, and nearly overthrew the Rejected Realms’ delegacy,
  • Causing great fear and consternation in the previously content community of the East Pacific, in which Gatesville provided significant military assistance to the Empire that terrorized the East Pacific for a long and arduous 4 months, ejecting natives and demeaning them through propaganda,
  • A third act major act of aggression against the North Pacific; when Gatesville supported the establishment of the North Pacific Directorate, a coup in which Pierconium seized the nation of Pixiedance, the North Pacific’s delegate, suspended the constitution, and instituted martial law, before the Pixiedance retook control over its nation. When Pixiedance did the exact same thing as Pierconium had previously, Pierconium replaced the North Pacific’s government with a corrupt dictatorship known as the North Pacific Directorate, Gatesville used its military might to support such,

Disgusted by Gatesville’s meddling hands which attempted to influence the governments of foreign regions via a vast intelligence network which reported confidential information to Gatesville and acted only in Gatesville’s interest, rather than the targeted region’s,

Acknowledging one of the notable spies under Gatesville: Lots of Ants, which, cunningly and with masterful deception, proved to be an excellent new nation in the West Pacific, taking on important roles in the region before eventually becoming delegate, at which point the nation mysteriously dropped out of activity. This event, which intentionally and successfully destabilized the West Pacific, was found to have been orchestrated by Darkesia, a prominent member of Gatesville intelligence, but it is entirely unknown as to whether or not Darkesia always controlled Lots of Ants,

Noting that Gatesville acted zealously against the World Assembly, and used its political influence to combat it,

Horrified by Gatesville’s long and appalling history of subverting and bullying prominent and happy regions into submission via dastardly intelligent covert operations and its massive terrorist army, just to satisfy its childish dislike for this Security Council and its own self interests,

Hereby condemns Gatesville Inc.


The World Assembly,

Praising Benevolent Thomas for its fabulous record in defending, its excellent region-building skills, its marvelous diplomatic abilities, its participation in many influential regions, and its contributions to the Security Council,

Noting that Benevolent Thomas' involvement in many regions include:

  • 10000 Islands, a region where it served as delegate for almost 5 months, served as Senator for Lyonesse East for 4 months, revived the regional magazine (The Mad Islander), deployed in almost 150 missions for TITO (Ten Thousand Islands Treaty Organisation), served as a Tactical Officer for approximately a year, and mended relations between it and The Rejected Realms,
  • 00000 A World Power, where it deployed on over 150 missions for the RDF (A World Power Regional Defence Force), co-led the region as part of the Triumvirate, was promoted to the rank of Colonel, and was only one of 5 nations to rise to a senior officer rank in the region's history to date,Lazarus, a region where it served as Minister of Interior for a few months, and as Delegate and Vice-Delegate,
  • Renegade Islands Alliance, a region in which it served as Chief Executive for over a year, rewrote the regional constitution to empower citizens through the implementation of the Citizens’ Congress which greatly increased government activity, heavily recruited for the region, served as Security Officer for months, and participated in about 50 missions with the RIASF (Renegade Islands Alliance Special Forces), the region also went through its most active era under BenevolentThomas,
  • Fort Triumph, a region it founded alongside other prominent defenders such as Deadeye Jack, Eist, and Land filled with people, which has deployed on almost a hundred defending missions, and has won several defender awards,
  • Hogwarts, a region it was involved in the refounding thereof, helped set up its foundations, ran quidditch leagues, and served as Deputy Headmaster for over 4 years under the proxy Benevolent aurors where it helped massively in keeping the region active,
  • The Founderless Regions Alliance, where it served as Vice-Chancellor for a few months, was promoted to the rank of Master Sergeant, and succeeded, with the help of Tim Stark and others, to revive the alliance after months of inactivity,

Recognising Benevolent Thomas’ significant role in European Union, a region it resided in under the proxy Rhine Ruhr, whereby it was actively involved in proposing government legislation and served as:

  • Premier Commissioner, one of the most important positions in the region, and is concerned with managing the regional economy, currency, and budget,
  • Internal Affairs Commissioner, an office involved in keeping peace within the region, wherein it created a Welcome Committee for helping new nations in the region,
  • Foreign Affairs Commissioner, an office responsible for recruitment and foreign relations, where it ran the regional recruitment programme and was heavily involved in diplomacy, and had one of its civil servants appointed
  • Justice of the European Court of Justice,

Awed by Benevolent Thomas' choice to move beyond merely defending by founding The Order of the Grey Wardens, one of the largest defending organisations in NationStates and home to many prominent defender nations, and which has deployed on missions numbering in the tens of thousands, a number only achieved by the strongest militaries,

Amazed by Benevolent Thomas' record in The Order of the Grey Wardens, wherein it served as First Warden during 2015, from May 2016 to November 2016, and from January 2020 to present day, and has completed 1178 missions including 785 defences, 113 liberations, and 280 detags,

Lauding Benevolent Thomas’ for earning The Lifetime Achievement Award for Dedication to Defending, an award bestowed on it by the defender community, and is an award only given to the best and most dedicated of defenders,

Acknowledging Benevolent Thomas' ongoing contributions to the work of the Security Council, including their long-standing efforts to memorialise the achievements of deserving nations:

  • SC#196 Commend Dyr Nasad, and
  • SC#229 Commend Wopruthien,

Believing that a nation which contributes so heavily to the worldwide community, by defending, diplomacy, and region-building, is deserving of a Security Council Commendation, and will serve to immortalise its noble actions,

Hereby Commends Benevolent Thomas.


The Security Council;

Observing that Ramaeus has been a native of The East Pacific since December 2012 and during that time has contributed a great deal to the security and well-being of the region.

Aware that Ramaeus has served faithfully in many vital positions in The East Pacific over the course of those seven years, including but not limited to:

• Delegate on three separate occasions, all of which saw the region engaged in a flurry of activity and camaraderie amongst East Pacificans.
• Vizier, a position in which Ramaeus served for years to ensure the security of the region, nominated once in 2015 and most recently for a life term in 2019.
• World Assembly Affairs Minister, where they advised the Delegates of The East Pacific for many years on the best course of action regarding ongoing votes or resolutions in the stage of drafting in the branches of the World Assembly.
• Magister of The East Pacific, serving as a member of the legislative body of the region and thus contributing to the activity and lawmaking procedures of the Magisterium.
• Arbiter of The East Pacific for the terms of November 2014, February 2015, and September 2016.


Recognizing that Ramaeus first ran for Delegate in June 2014 to counterbalance the radical candidacy of an East Pacifican whose intentions were to drive The East Pacific in an aggressive and unstable direction, and managed to uphold an honest candidacy against the antagonistic and underhanded votestacking by the opponent.

Knowing that Ramaeus faced many difficulties in their Delegacies and dealt with them in a capable manner. Such difficulties included:

• Combating the repeated efforts by a former East Pacifican to destabilize and discredit the government out of spite for losing the election to Ramaeus, and that they handled the situation carefully so that it would leave no permanent damage to the region itself.
• The Osiris-Lazarus war of 2014, where two regions allied to The East Pacific engaged in aggressive conflict and a decision was made to betray neither treaty despite repeated pressure from the government of the People’s Republic of Lazarus and their allies to get involved.
• The New Lazarene Order coup of 2015, where, after a total lack of responses by the governments of the New Lazarene Order and the New Pacific Order to Ramaeus, relations were terminated and The East Pacific joined in the ardent efforts to oppose the coup.


Emphasizing that Ramaeus was a driving force of activity and recruitment, bringing over thirty new recruits to the Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army across their terms as Delegate, pushing for rich and vibrant Culture sprees by means of several very talented Ministers, engaging the region in the affairs of the World Assembly, and driving a foreign policy that brought greater interaction with allied regions.

Remarking on two valuable treaties inducted into active policy under Ramaeus’ Delegacies, marking further their vested interest in cooperation with allies. The East Pacific – Osiris Treaty of Amity was signed and honored under Ramaeus, seen as a symbol of kinship between two mutually agreeable regions, and The Tomato Treaty with Taijitu, the drafting of which began through a previous Delegate, was completed and signed under Ramaeus.

Impressed that Ramaeus has been an author in the Security Council on six occasions, with resolutions ranging from recognition of the great contributions of nations within their region to repealing proposals of insufficient merit, as listed below:

• SC #119 "Commend A Slanted Black Stripe"
• SC #138 "Commend Anime Daisuki"
• SC #141 "Commend 1 Infinite Loop"
• SC #158 Repeal “Condemn North Korea”
• SC #166 Repeal “Commend Luna Amore"
• SC #170 "Commend Luna Amore"

Admiring that Ramaeus created a base of operations for the leadership of The East Pacific and their allies during the Fedele coup of 2019, a locale where important decisions and plans were made and executed to liberate The East Pacific.

Concluding that Ramaeus has done many Commendable things in their career and contributed enormously to the history, activity, and success of The East Pacific, marking them as a suitable candidate for recognition by the Security Council.

Hereby Commends Ramaeus.


While I may have missed some things (and some of those clauses marked supplementary may have been defining but it didn’t seem clear to me), it does seem clear that supplements have a stronghold within Security Council proposals.




But why? I would like to suggest here that these supplements that fill proposals (you really need to look at the color-coded examples) aren’t necessary.

Authors are encouraged to find information that supports the operative clause (commend or condemn) rather than a thesis based on descriptors as to why you’re commending or condemning them (e.g. they’re a devoted defender and region-builder). With this in mind, researchers include pre-ambulatory clauses that are out of place in the rest of the proposal (for example roleplay in a GP proposal).

Additionally, when looking for supplements instead of descriptors, you forum research and interview players (who often remember or will say very little), which results in only a small percentage of the nominee’s actions being found, and authors typically pick out only the stuff that fits your commendation or condemnation goal and ignore the rest.

So what ends up happening in many cases is that the authors tailor their “thesis” around the limited examples that they have found. In reality, authors should make a thesis based on descriptors, then find supplements to support it.

The limited amount of supplements we can find causes them to not help in creating an illustration of the nominee like descriptors do. In fact, our current focus on them often hurts the proposal. In the recent case of Commend and Condemn Cormactopia Prime, the author searched for supplements, received very little of the main information, and had trouble forming a description that fit Cormac’s character enough to satisfy voters.

The demands for supplements that voters require not only places extra burdens on authors, but also doesn’t approve draft quality. In the cases where the supplements are working for the thesis (the SC is a biased organization) rather than the thesis working for it (the thesis is made through descriptors), supplements are often boring, derivative and contributing towards the widespread tendency not to read proposals. Being a delegate of a GCR or stopping a coup is heard so many times that there’s simply no interest in reading it. Every region and nation is unique, so focusing on crafting a story centered around the descriptors can be interesting.

It doesn’t provide a more convincing argument or reassurance of accuracy (this obviously mainly referring to gameplay C&Cs) either. The lack of what could even remotely be a complete record of this information and avoidance of contrary information by authors deceives readers. Additionally, the information provided is most often tangential (As an example: "sure, they helped in the coup. How much? How many updaters?") due to limited space.

Furthermore, many questions of overall impact (e.g. “who was affecting GP the most in 2010?”) are impossible to answer with ‘evidence’ based on our current research capabilities (so much is lost), so mandating that examples be used to support is too limiting on authors.




Based on this logic, we should be writing proposals quite differently. Authors should answer a series of questions, similar to how a roleplayer world-builds:

  • What genre do they participate in? What is the extent of their significance (not to be confused with influence)?
  • What is their alignment / ideology?
  • What are major descriptor-changing events in their history?
  • What were their major goals? Did they fulfill them?
  • Etc. (see above)

They would then put that information into a proposal, and it would be done. Everything substantial about the region or nation would be answered with that alone.

The proposals themselves would begin to look something like a more expanded proposal from the early SC, but they would certainly be more interesting.




I'd like to see some debate on whether we should be keeping extra details and examples in proposals. :)

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Morover
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Postby Morover » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:16 pm

Nice article.

So, before I start here, I feel I should say that I'm not an expert on this at all, so if I'm misinterpreting something or seem uneducated, it probably is because I am, and feel free to point out any inadequacies in my response.

-

If I'm understanding correctly, you're insinuating that Security Council Resolutions are intended to be a line of reasoning, laying out a brief "roadmap" (a thesis) of what the proposal is and why the target should be commended/condemned/liberated, with elaborations in later clauses (of course, I'm oversimplifying this. It would be incredibly hard to lay out a resolution in the same formatting as a traditional, grade-school essay, but the same principles apply to both, in that they must be defensible from a reasonable position). In regards to this essay-like approach of proposal-writing, these "descriptors" as you put it would be the commentary, whereas the "supplements" would be the evidence. Both crucial to make a position defensible, but incredibly boring (and oftentimes unconvincing) if one relies mostly on the evidence. One must use the evidence as a supplement (as you so adequately put it), as opposed to a crutch.

So, to get to my point, I'm asking if you explicitly believe (I know you said this isn't your actual opinion, but for the sake of argument, I'm phrasing it this way) that resolutions should thread a narrative about the target, with supplemental evidence either minimized or not directly stated, and instead being implied through the language of the proposal. If you are, then I'd agree with you. Whether it be through an eloquent prose or legitimate good storytelling, I feel that narratives are a much more interesting way of presenting information, and, taking a cursory look through past proposals, it seems that such presentations are on the decline.

I'd be interested to see your take on what a quick look through appears to be the epitome of both styles of writing:

SCR#17: Condemn Omigodtheykilledkenny - SCR#17 takes facts about the target's happenings in the WA and presents it as a story (to my eye, at least), instead of just listing their wrongdoings. Another example of this is SCR#193, though that also has some actual listing of stuff (though it does this in an eloquently put way).

SCR#41: Liberate Republicans - SCR#41 is almost entirely a pure recount of what happened, with only one actual commentary near the end, where it describes it as the SC's duty to prevent happenings such as those which went down. Such a style lends itself more to Liberations than C&C, though I'm still interested to see what you have to say for something that almost nearly lists facts as opposed to personal commentary.

-

Again, no idea if any of this made any sense, or even if I understood what you were saying correctly. But there's my two cents.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:44 pm

Morover wrote:If I'm understanding correctly, you're insinuating that Security Council Resolutions are intended to be a line of reasoning, laying out a brief "roadmap" (a thesis) of what the proposal is and why the target should be commended/condemned/liberated, with elaborations in later clauses (of course, I'm oversimplifying this. It would be incredibly hard to lay out a resolution in the same formatting as a traditional, grade-school essay, but the same principles apply to both, in that they must be defensible from a reasonable position). In regards to this essay-like approach of proposal-writing, these "descriptors" as you put it would be the commentary, whereas the "supplements" would be the evidence. Both crucial to make a position defensible, but incredibly boring (and oftentimes unconvincing) if one relies mostly on the evidence. One must use the evidence as a supplement (as you so adequately put it), as opposed to a crutch.


That, frankly, is my opinion. I think these "supplements" should be used in moderation, because I often see long lists of actions and (even worse) positions nominees have had that no one really bothers to read. That is simply my essay-like analysis of writing proposals.

The post (which ironically doesn't follow an essay format / isn't an essay), knowing that SC resolutions have gradually focused more on supplements over time, makes the opinion that we should stop demanding supplements whatsoever. It maintains that resolutions, particularly those from gameplay, are degraded by these derivative supplements because of their lack of interest and their distraction of the author to focus on onerous, often detrimental (due to the incompleteness) research.

Morover wrote:So, to get to my point, I'm asking if you explicitly believe (I know you said this isn't your actual opinion, but for the sake of argument, I'm phrasing it this way) that resolutions should thread a narrative about the target, with supplemental evidence either minimized or not directly stated, and instead being implied through the language of the proposal. If you are, then I'd agree with you. Whether it be through an eloquent prose or legitimate good storytelling, I feel that narratives are a much more interesting way of presenting information, and, taking a cursory look through past proposals, it seems that such presentations are on the decline.

Correct. It's often too hard of a burden to do that in gameplay proposals, which is one of the reasons why I'm being careful, but when possible (e.g. Commend Kindjal), I do try and focus more on the narrative.

Voters having experienced the nominee also tend to focus on the narrative (the descriptors) rather than the supplements.


Morover wrote:SCR#17: Condemn Omigodtheykilledkenny - SCR#17 takes facts about the target's happenings in the WA and presents it as a story (to my eye, at least), instead of just listing their wrongdoings. Another example of this is SCR#193, though that also has some actual listing of stuff (though it does this in an eloquently put way).

Those are two proposals which I really like. I think that roleplay resolutions do a good job in this style (those are kind of roleplay).

Commend Sep is an excellent example of a balance, in my opinion.

For Kenny (as well as Commend the Cat-Tribe) the ability to focus on narrative really stretched the SC's scope.


Morover wrote:SCR#41: Liberate Republicans - SCR#41 is almost entirely a pure recount of what happened, with only one actual commentary near the end, where it describes it as the SC's duty to prevent happenings such as those which went down. Such a style lends itself more to Liberations than C&C, though I'm still interested to see what you have to say for something that almost nearly lists facts as opposed to personal commentary.


Same thing for Liberate Greece as well. I definitely should've mentioned how many liberations do this well.

Here's (context) another good one for telling a story, this time as a C&C. Too bad it was repealed.

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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:15 am

I'd agree, except those supplements are never/rarely presented on proposals where this isn't included in the text and I think they play an important role for the entire body of readers who ultimately decide on the final vote. Equally, all of the above probably only really applies to gameplay C&Cs?

In my opinion, the four corners of the resolution should be high-level, except where key circumstances are the primary reason for the nomination.

The other problem is the debate rarely draws those details out of the people who could provide them. The quality of support/against posts is often very lacking ("Support, if anyone deserves a commendation it's X", etc.) even when it is the very individuals who should be able to furnish the Security Council with the supplementary information they need to take an informed decision on the proposal.

Without that input, either from the author or within the debate, I'm not sure high-level resolutions give readers enough to make an informed decision - particularly on more historical proposals (which I think are more relevant to what you are saying). It's really on those of us who care about how the Security Council operates to draw those justifications from people when they comment on a proposal.

I do think your questions provide a very useful starting point for proposals though.
Last edited by Numero Capitan on Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:20 am

Bormiar wrote:TITO does not use switchers.

Nickpick: This is not true. It should read
TITO does not use switchers without complaining.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.


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