[PASSED] Commend Kindjal

[Refuge Isle]

Only additional comment would be that issue answering is not commendable.

...why?

Why is RP and GP commendable but not issues answering?

It's been demonstrated thoroughly in this thread that Kindjal's achievements not only took an insane amount of time, but also are no easy feat, not mere following of a wiki's advice, and aren't something that's been demonstrated to be easily replicable.

So why is it that despite putting in so much effort for years to be the best in this area of NationStates, Kindjal's accomplishments are not commendable?

I agree.

There are tools and networking for the themes I feel the SC would rather commend/condemn on the grounds of, as far as the database argument goes. Figuring out how to use those effectively isn't any different here.

Ultimately C&C drafts should be about relative dedication and time investment. And the amount of time invested from this player seems to meet or exceed resolutions that have been passed before. That such dedication takes place within issues, alone, is a very sill reason to be against.

I'm for and am glad to see expanded utilisation of the SC.

[Bowzin]

Card collectors have been condemned for less work and time. While we can talk all we want about the strategy behind card collecting, trading, and selling, etc., the truth is, to get cards, you have to answer issues.

Difference is, here instead of mindlessly answering issues, Kindjal has gone through years of issues, working to get their stats to the #1 spot in multiple categories. People getting mad about an issue answerer getting commended might just be upset that someone outside a community they know is being recognized for their work.

[Kuriko]

Card collectors have been condemned for less work and time. While we can talk all we want about the strategy behind card collecting, trading, and selling, etc., the truth is, to get cards, you have to answer issues.

Difference is, here instead of mindlessly answering issues, Kindjal has gone through years of issues, working to get their stats to the #1 spot in multiple categories. People getting mad about an issue answerer getting commended might just be upset that someone outside a community they know is being recognized for their work.

For the record, I didn't agree with Condemn Koem Kab and I know some others privately didn't agree with it either. Collecting cards in-and-of-itself shouldn't have a place in C&Cs, but I can get behind commending those who set up card infrastructure like what TNP created. I'm not upset over someone "outside of my community" being commended, so please read the thread before posting.

The reason I'm against this is pretty well laid out in this thread. This degrades commendations for those that have put hours and hours of work every day for years into their chosen parts of NS, because they didn't spend 20 minutes a day answering issues. They spent hours a day working on their stuff before they were considered commendable, and some people put hours of work in a day for years and will never be considered to have done enough work to be considered for commendation.

This nation has been silent for the length of its existence, how do we know it's even the same player who created the nation? How do we know that this nation hasn't been handed to someone else at some point? We know people sometimes hand off nations, so it's completely possible it's not even the same player who created the nation although I think it more than likely is.

[The Stalker]

The reason I'm against this is pretty well laid out in this thread. This degrades commendations for those that have put hours and hours of work every day for years into their chosen parts of NS, because they didn't spend 20 minutes a day answering issues. They spent hours a day working on their stuff before they were considered commendable, and some people put hours of work in a day for years and will never be considered to have done enough work to be considered for commendation.

20 mins a day, for the last 18 years is 2,190 hours.

[Kuriko]

20 mins a day, for the last 18 years is 2,190 hours.

And those who have played this game for 5 years who put at least an hour a day into regional government, RP, R/D, or region building have spent that exact same amount of time. But they will never be considered having done enough to be commended.

[Bormiar]

20 mins a day, for the last 18 years is 2,190 hours.

And those who have played this game for 5 years who put at least an hour a day into regional government, RP, R/D, or region building have spent that exact same amount of time. But they will never be considered having done enough to be commended.

5 years is usually enough time for commendation, and an hour a day is a radical example. This speculation is getting out of hand.

[Excidium Planetis]

This nation has been silent for the length of its existence, how do we know it's even the same player who created the nation? How do we know that this nation hasn't been handed to someone else at some point? We know people sometimes hand off nations, so it's completely possible it's not even the same player who created the nation although I think it more than likely is.

This a baseless and rather ridiculous argument. You have absolutely no evidence that there might be different players involved, and this accusation could be levelled at any Commendation because without knowing the real world identity of a player you can't prove that it's been them the length of time that their nation has been involved in NS.

[Bormiar]

This nation has been silent for the length of its existence, how do we know it's even the same player who created the nation? How do we know that this nation hasn't been handed to someone else at some point? We know people sometimes hand off nations, so it's completely possible it's not even the same player who created the nation although I think it more than likely is.

This a baseless and rather ridiculous argument. You have absolutely no evidence that there might be different players involved, and this accusation could be levelled at any Commendation because without knowing the real world identity of a player you can't prove that it's been them the length of time that their nation has been involved in NS.

It has been known that nations have switched players without others knowing.

[Kuriko]

And those who have played this game for 5 years who put at least an hour a day into regional government, RP, R/D, or region building have spent that exact same amount of time. But they will never be considered having done enough to be commended.

5 years is usually enough time for commendation, and an hour a day is a radical example. This speculation is getting out of hand.

I've spent at least an hour a day for the last three years on NationStates stuff. It's not radical, it's pragmatic.

This a baseless and rather ridiculous argument. You have absolutely no evidence that there might be different players involved, and this accusation could be levelled at any Commendation because without knowing the real world identity of a player you can't prove that it's been them the length of time that their nation has been involved in NS.

It has been known that nations have switched honors without others knowing.

Yes, it has. But I also said that it's more than likely not the case, so your hostility is a little unwarranted Excidium.

[Bormiar]

5 years is usually enough time for commendation, and an hour a day is a radical example. This speculation is getting out of hand.

I've spent at least an hour a day for the last three years on NationStates stuff. It's not radical, it's pragmatic.

You’re being nominated for commendation rn

It has been known that nations have switched honors without others knowing.

Yes, it has. But I also said that it's more than likely not the case, so your hostility is a little unwarranted Excidium.

Glad you saw the autocorrect problem. That meant to be “owners”, not “honors”.

[Bowzin]

The amount of time shouldn't be the deciding factor behind commend/condemns anyway...there's more to the badge than dumping hours into gameplay accomplishing little to nothing.

[Excidium Planetis]

Yes, it has. But I also said that it's more than likely not the case, so your hostility is a little unwarranted Excidium.

What hostility? I merely pointed out your argument was baseless (without any evidence on which to base it) and ridiculous (perhaps you have preferred me to use "absurd"?). I then supported that assertion with my own argument. I think you are mistaking disagreement with hostility. I don't even know who you are.

But, continuing on to the discussion, if it's unlikely (and furthermore, if there's no evidence supporting it) then why bring it up as an argument against the Commendation? Why bother mentioning something that is in all likelihood totally irrelevant to the merits of the Commendation?

[Kuriko]

Yes, it has. But I also said that it's more than likely not the case, so your hostility is a little unwarranted Excidium.

What hostility? I merely pointed out your argument was baseless (without any evidence on which to base it) and ridiculous (perhaps you have preferred me to use "absurd"?). I then supported that assertion with my own argument. I think you are mistaking disagreement with hostility. I don't even know who you are.

But, continuing on to the discussion, if it's unlikely (and furthermore, if there's no evidence supporting it) then why bring it up as an argument against the Commendation? Why bother mentioning something that is in all likelihood totally irrelevant to the merits of the Commendation?

You actually do know me, we've talked a couple of times on the WA discord. I brought it up because it's a possibility, and all possibilities should be discussed when trying to commend an unknown player. Even if they're unlikely possibilities.

Edit: As of three years ago, it was the same player. Just saying.

[Kuriko]

Back to the fact that issues repeat, I decided to take a look at the Wayback Machine. It was quite a trip, if anyome wants to look. Just while looking, note the repeating answers at the bottom in national happenings which are exactly the same. Also note that at least one of the current happenings is a repeat answer from the archives. I only looked from 2008 to 2012, I didn't want to look too far because it would take forever. I included some screenshots in Imgur if you dont want to go through the Wayback. That could contribute to such high stats. Years and years of the same issues and same answers.

Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/fWiiSza

Wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20080324170 ... on=kindjal

Current happenings: https://www.nationstates.net/page=activ ... filter=law

[WayNeacTia]

The amount of time shouldn't be the deciding factor behind commend/condemns anyway...there's more to the badge than dumping hours into gameplay accomplishing little to nothing.

As much as Kuri is blowing this up more than necessary, they are right. The mere act of answering issues, whilst contributing nothing to the community of the game at large in my opinion does not make the nominee worthy of a full security council commendation. I am sure the big delegates will realize this and stomp it into the ground. Shame about that, as it is well written.

[Kuriko]

The amount of time shouldn't be the deciding factor behind commend/condemns anyway...there's more to the badge than dumping hours into gameplay accomplishing little to nothing.

As much as Kuri is blowing this up more than necessary, they are right. The mere act of answering issues, whilst contributing nothing to the community of the game at large in my opinion does not make the nominee worthy of a full security council commendation. I am sure the big delegates will realize this and stomp it into the ground. Shame about that, as it is well written.

Yeah, I probably am blowing it up a bit lol. It's just a good debate on merits I think, and I'm having fun. I hope Bormiar is having fun debating too.

[Bormiar]

Back to the fact that issues repeat, I decided to take a look at the Wayback Machine. It was quite a trip, if anyome wants to look. Just while looking, note the repeating answers at the bottom in national happenings which are exactly the same. Also note that at least one of the current happenings is a repeat answer from the archives. I only looked from 2008 to 2012, I didn't want to look too far because it would take forever. I included some screenshots in Imgur if you dont want to go through the Wayback. That could contribute to such high stats. Years and years of the same issues and same answers.

Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/fWiiSza

Wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20080324170 ... on=kindjal

Current happenings: https://www.nationstates.net/page=activ ... filter=law

I don’t see the options which you are referring to.

Regardless, that is a statically inept analysis. A couple of handpicked options which were the same (over years with thousands of issues answered) is hardly indicative of a nations history, let alone unbiased. There are hundreds of issues in the game, and it is guaranteed that some nations will respond to certain issues the same way every single time- no one denies that. It is, however, silly to make that conclusion on their issue practices in general, especially when new issues are added all the time.

Additionally, I doubt that Kindjal just remembers how they answered issues and responds like an automaton. I don’t think any human would want to do that for a decade.

I can’t understand why you press this sophistical argument despite several issues answerers, including an IE, who are very aware of your argument, disagree with someone who never bothers with issues.

As much as Kuri is blowing this up more than necessary, they are right. The mere act of answering issues, whilst contributing nothing to the community of the game at large in my opinion does not make the nominee worthy of a full security council commendation. I am sure the big delegates will realize this and stomp it into the ground. Shame about that, as it is well written.

Yeah, I probably am blowing it up a bit lol. It's just a good debate on merits I think, and I'm having fun. I hope Bormiar is having fun debating too.

I would have given up the SC months ago if this stuff wasn’t fun. I’m surprised you went on the wayback

[Excidium Planetis]

You actually do know me, we've talked a couple of times on the WA discord.

Have you considered the possibility that I am not the person you interacted with on Discord?

I brought it up because it's a possibility, and all possibilities should be discussed when trying to commend an unknown player. Even if they're unlikely possibilities.

Edit: As of three years ago, it was the same player. Just saying.

There's also the possibility that this Commendation could lead to the real life death of the player being commended (due to shock). Perhaps we should discuss that as well? After all, while exceptionally unlikely, it's still a possibility.

No, I do not believe all possibilities, no matter how unlikely, should be discussed. That's an absurd way to go about discussion, as there is quite literally no end to the possibilities to be discussed.

I argue, rather, that only reasonable objections should be put forward, and the unlikely possibility that Kindjal has been handed off to another player is not a reasonable objection in my opinion.

Furthermore, even if Kindjal was operated by two different people, commending groups of people is nothing new. It's happened many times. Commending the nation of Kindjal is with the intent to Commend the player or players behind the nation. I don't care if it's one player or 52 players who all take turns operating the account, they did an excellent job either way, operating for years with consistent results.

[WayNeacTia]

You actually do know me, we've talked a couple of times on the WA discord.

Have you considered the possibility that I am not the person you interacted with on Discord?

I brought it up because it's a possibility, and all possibilities should be discussed when trying to commend an unknown player. Even if they're unlikely possibilities.

Edit: As of three years ago, it was the same player. Just saying.

There's also the possibility that this Commendation could lead to the real life death of the player being commended (due to shock). Perhaps we should discuss that as well? After all, while exceptionally unlikely, it's still a possibility.

No, I do not believe all possibilities, no matter how unlikely, should be discussed. That's an absurd way to go about discussion, as there is quite literally no end to the possibilities to be discussed.

I argue, rather, that only reasonable objections should be put forward, and the unlikely possibility that Kindjal has been handed off to another player is not a reasonable objection in my opinion.

Furthermore, even if Kindjal was operated by two different people, commending groups of people is nothing new. It's happened many times. Commending the nation of Kindjal is with the intent to Commend the player or players behind the nation. I don't care if it's one player or 52 players who all take turns operating the account, they did an excellent job either way, operating for years with consistent results.

Or you know, you could have dropped the issue instead of trying the get the last shot in to try and score points?

[Kuriko]

Back to the fact that issues repeat, I decided to take a look at the Wayback Machine. It was quite a trip, if anyome wants to look. Just while looking, note the repeating answers at the bottom in national happenings which are exactly the same. Also note that at least one of the current happenings is a repeat answer from the archives. I only looked from 2008 to 2012, I didn't want to look too far because it would take forever. I included some screenshots in Imgur if you dont want to go through the Wayback. That could contribute to such high stats. Years and years of the same issues and same answers.

Imgur: https://imgur.com/a/fWiiSza

Wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20080324170 ... on=kindjal

Current happenings: https://www.nationstates.net/page=activ ... filter=law

I don’t see the options which you are referring to.

Regardless, that is a statically inept analysis. A couple of handpicked options which were the same (over years with thousands of issues answered) is hardly indicative of a nations history, let alone unbiased. There are hundreds of issues in the game, and it is guaranteed that some nations will respond to certain issues the same way every single time- no one denies that. It is, however, silly to make that conclusion on their issue practices in general, especially when new issues are added all the time.

Additionally, I doubt that Kindjal just remembers how they answered issues and responds like an automaton. I don’t think any human would want to do that for a decade.

I can’t understand why you press this sophistical argument despite several issues answerers, including an IE, who are very aware of your argument, disagree with someone who never bothers with issues.

Yeah, I probably am blowing it up a bit lol. It's just a good debate on merits I think, and I'm having fun. I hope Bormiar is having fun debating too.

I would have given up the SC months ago if this stuff wasn’t fun. I’m surprised you went on the wayback

You didn't even look, did you?

[Excidium Planetis]

Or you know, you could have dropped the issue instead of trying the get the last shot in to try and score points?

I'm not gonna bother to respond to this. I don't feel like getting warned by moderators, and nothing I say would change your mind anyways. Have a nice day, Wayne.

[Bormiar]

I don’t see the options which you are referring to.

Regardless, that is a statically inept analysis. A couple of handpicked options which were the same (over years with thousands of issues answered) is hardly indicative of a nations history, let alone unbiased. There are hundreds of issues in the game, and it is guaranteed that some nations will respond to certain issues the same way every single time- no one denies that. It is, however, silly to make that conclusion on their issue practices in general, especially when new issues are added all the time.

Additionally, I doubt that Kindjal just remembers how they answered issues and responds like an automaton. I don’t think any human would want to do that for a decade.

I can’t understand why you press this sophistical argument despite several issues answerers, including an IE, who are very aware of your argument, disagree with someone who never bothers with issues.


I would have given up the SC months ago if this stuff wasn’t fun. I’m surprised you went on the wayback

You didn't even look, did you?

I did look! I'm still looking.

Furthermore, even if Kindjal was operated by two different people, commending groups of people is nothing new. It's happened many times. Commending the nation of Kindjal is with the intent to Commend the player or players behind the nation. I don't care if it's one player or 52 players who all take turns operating the account, they did an excellent job either way, operating for years with consistent results.

I'm reasonably convinced Koem Kab has gotta be multiple people, but that's bad too apparently.

[Bormiar]

Submitted: https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1583899392

[Yokiria]

I'm late to the pre-submission debate by just a bit, sadly, but regardless...

My position is simple. Extra-ordinary skill is not commendable in itself. Aiding the community with that skill is what makes one commendable.

Kindjal is an amazing issue-answerer, no doubt, but nobody will ever be amazing at answering issues because of Kindjal.

[Bormiar]

I'm late to the pre-submission debate by a few hours, sadly.

My position is simple. Kindjal's skill in accruing extreme stats for their nation through issue-answering would be commendable IF they had any sort of community presence to go along with it.

I’d like an explanation for why “community presence” is necessary- it just feels cliquey to me. There are pros and cons of getting involved on the forums, the cons being the drama and talking to us Americans and stuff (yes, I have seen very heated debates within the issue community before).

Additionally, what if they’ve don’t see much of an off-site community for issues (there really isn’t a definitive issue-answering community other than a growing discord server)? What if they don’t speak English well (translators like deepl.com might translate issues well; they’re motto is French and Groland is French)? What if they joined NS back when regional communities were barely anything (including filled with incompetents in power), R/D was mostly griefing and trolling, communities didn’t have the capacity to form (painstakingly slow NS forums, RMBs / Civil Headquarters that didn’t save past 10 posts, political ineptitude, meddling control into the GCRs by a few select power regions, no ROs, maybe no founders when they joined, just a WFE), and they decided to stick to the issues game, then never really had the same incredible outside community outreach that we have today? Etc.

Those may not be good reasons, but the point is that we can’t adopt a bright-line rule for that.

Kindjal is an amazing issue-answerer, no doubt, but nobody will ever be amazing at answering issues because of Kindjal.

However, Pencil Sharpeners 2, a very successful issues player, made it clear in this thread that Kindjal inspired them to keep playing the issues game: viewtopic.php?p=36761507&sid=c99188941551b6f66897a77b496d6fda#p36761507

I fully support this

When I started the game back in 2014, I looked at the World census every day (back before live rankings were a thing) and noticed that Kindjal always seemed to be either top or bottom. Seeing that level of World Census dominance was something that I aspired to, and was one of the early drivers in getting me hooked on the game.