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[ABANDONED] Liberate Children of the Grave

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Kuriko
Diplomat
 
Posts: 895
Founded: Oct 31, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:47 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Not really sure why I was dragged into this when I have nothing to do with this proposal Koth.


Your hands are covered in the filth of offensive liberations, Lenlyvit, kuriko, whatever your next rebranding shall be.

Everyone knows you used la navasse as your cats paw to pass the first few junk liberations, but you were one of the lead brainchild behind it.

Wayneactia wrote:Letting defenders refound the region wouldn't serve much a purpose other than gloating. I would fully support the Hawks refounding the region, or even Mike and keeping it as a memorial to the good old days myself.


Wayne, I do not even know who you ar, but you presume too much, and know too little. I think you need to bone up on who is what etc.

I remain, staunchly against, discontent, nay on this junk liberation attempt.

Um, perhaps if you looked or asked you might find out that I opposed pretty much all of La Navasse's offensive liberation attempts. My voting has been 100% against offensive Liberations, even liberate Kaiserreich, and I made no secret of that either.
Delegate of the 10000 Islands
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Twins of Hearts
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 153
Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:12 am

Public statements are meaningless, as we all know. Its what you did in private, lenlyvit...

Using la navasse as your personal in game guinea pig after the dank meme region failure is a well known fact. A move worthy of whitelist intervention, I dare say! :hug: :clap: :lol2:

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Kuriko
Diplomat
 
Posts: 895
Founded: Oct 31, 2017
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:30 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:Public statements are meaningless, as we all know. Its what you did in private, lenlyvit...

Using la navasse as your personal in game guinea pig after the dank meme region failure is a well known fact. A move worthy of whitelist intervention, I dare say! :hug: :clap: :lol2:

Wow, you've really lost your mind haven't you? La Navasse and I never really got along at all, so go on and keep making inaccurate guesses while everyone knows the truth of the situation. I wasn't even around when the Dank Meme thing originally happened.
Delegate of the 10000 Islands
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Citizen of the 10000 Islands and The Rejected Realms

Former TITO Tactical Officer
Former Commander of TGW, UDSAF, and FORGE
Proud founder of The Hole To Hide In
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Apostate
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 45
Founded: Mar 09, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Apostate » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:25 am

Removed due to double post. Nice and tidy now.
Last edited by Apostate on Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”

What a man really says when he says that someone else can be persuaded by force, is that he himself is incapable of more rational means of communication.

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Twins of Hearts
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 153
Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:43 am

Kuriko wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:Public statements are meaningless, as we all know. Its what you did in private, lenlyvit...

Using la navasse as your personal in game guinea pig after the dank meme region failure is a well known fact. A move worthy of whitelist intervention, I dare say! :hug: :clap: :lol2:

Wow, you've really lost your mind haven't you? La Navasse and I never really got along at all, so go on and keep making inaccurate guesses while everyone knows the truth of the situation. I wasn't even around when the Dank Meme thing originally happened.


You are using simple rhetoric and misdirection to attempt and discredit the fact that you helped design offensive liberations. lenlyvit was most certainly “around” , and sniffing all around the whole thing. Your nation kuriko was not yet in existence.

I never asserted you and la navasse were friends, but asserting i have lost my mind is a reductive smear. I expected better from the delegate of 10ki and tito. I understand you are salty over your losses and challenges, so I forgive you for your OOC attack upon my person. Just try and be better next time! We all have bad days. :hug:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=434015

Hmmm....page 1 supporter.
Last edited by Twins of Hearts on Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2441
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:51 pm

Jakker wrote:<snip>

I think the general idea behind it is no safe haven, no platform for these people, and by working with them -- not only the so-called "blacklisted" folks, but also fascists -- Shadow has very much become one of these people by association, and of her own free will. Children of the Grave is a safe haven for her.

I don't really love this either, but either we're serious about depriving these people of safe havens and platforms when we can, or we aren't. I don't think Shadow should get a pass just because she hasn't done reprehensible things. She's enabling people who have done those things to continue pestering us through gameplay mechanics, by using her sleepers to engage in R/D and bother those of us who want absolutely nothing to do with them. Maybe she's not a bad person herself, I really have no idea, but she is enabling people who have done terrible things to continue antagonizing the gameplay community, including many of the people they have previously victimized, and that's on her. I don't feel bad for her one bit, because she could make different choices.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Marxist Germany
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Posts: 1740
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:59 pm

OOC: Opposed, offensive liberations do not belong in the SC.
Last edited by Marxist Germany on Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Country represents RL views mostly. Not Marxist anymore.
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Bhang Bhang Duc
Minister
 
Posts: 2035
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:13 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Opposed, offensive liberations do not belong in the SC.

Where in the SC’s rules does it say that?

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Jakker wrote:<snip>

I think the general idea behind it is no safe haven, no platform for these people, and by working with them -- not only the so-called "blacklisted" folks, but also fascists -- Shadow has very much become one of these people by association, and of her own free will. Children of the Grave is a safe haven for her.

I don't really love this either, but either we're serious about depriving these people of safe havens and platforms when we can, or we aren't. I don't think Shadow should get a pass just because she hasn't done reprehensible things. She's enabling people who have done those things to continue pestering us through gameplay mechanics, by using her sleepers to engage in R/D and bother those of us who want absolutely nothing to do with them. Maybe she's not a bad person herself, I really have no idea, but she is enabling people who have done terrible things to continue antagonizing the gameplay community, including many of the people they have previously victimized, and that's on her. I don't feel bad for her one bit, because she could make different choices.

Nicely argued Cormac. I have sympathy for Jakker’s point of view, but overall I’m leaning towards this line of reasoning.
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Former Delegate and Guardian of The West Pacific. TWP's Former Minister for World Assembly Affairs

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Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

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Red Millennium
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 23
Founded: Jan 21, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby Red Millennium » Sun Feb 09, 2020 2:18 pm

Go liberate Intruders instead :D

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Wayneactia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 842
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:23 pm

Twins of Hearts wrote:Public statements are meaningless, as we all know. Its what you did in private, lenlyvit...

Using la navasse as your personal in game guinea pig after the dank meme region failure is a well known fact. A move worthy of whitelist intervention, I dare say! :hug: :clap: :lol2:

Kind of curious as to what you have been smoking? You may want to cut back a tad. Kuri opposes offensive liberations for the same reason I do. They devalue the function of them. There are always exceptions to the rule and this seems like a good exception. Ride with the fash? Share their fate.

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Numero Capitan
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 419
Founded: Sep 27, 2007
Father Knows Best State

Postby Numero Capitan » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:39 am

Jakker wrote:Just seems like all a refound would do (even if the founder was a raider) would be for the region to lose its original founder.


Worth noting that Shadow has ejected everyone from the region and is presumably going to attempt a refound herself, so this is happening either way now, the liberation proposal just gives a controlled timescale for others to catch her in the act of doing so and beating her to it
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Jakker
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 2273
Founded: May 17, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:01 am

Numero Capitan wrote:
Jakker wrote:Just seems like all a refound would do (even if the founder was a raider) would be for the region to lose its original founder.


Worth noting that Shadow has ejected everyone from the region and is presumably going to attempt a refound herself, so this is happening either way now, the liberation proposal just gives a controlled timescale for others to catch her in the act of doing so and beating her to it


Well as far as I can see, this is happening because of this proposal :P And I can understand Cormac's point about pushing the message of depriving those of safe havens. I'm just unsure if it will actually have the desired effect, yet will have other consequences like removing the original founder.
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The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

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Numero Capitan
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 419
Founded: Sep 27, 2007
Father Knows Best State

Postby Numero Capitan » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:00 am

Jakker wrote:Well as far as I can see, this is happening because of this proposal :P And I can understand Cormac's point about pushing the message of depriving those of safe havens. I'm just unsure if it will actually have the desired effect, yet will have other consequences like removing the original founder.


I was content for this to sit here in draft as a threat against Shadow if she worked with the same group again. She could have acknowledged that the operation was starting to draw undesirable fascist involvement. Or less than that she could have made a case that she was working with old friends in a limited way that was unlikely to result in opportunities for them to make the same mistakes that have made them undesirable anywhere else. Instead she booted every other native nation from CotG and doubled down on her mistakes by raiding with them all again. Instead of acknowledging the concerns of nations from relatively neutral regions like TNP and Osiris she is apparently seeking to undermine and ignore them by undertaking a forced refound of her own in CotG.

Aggressive acts should have consequences, we have already turned condemnations into dark mode commendations, so the Security Council needs to choose whether to have a bite or not.
A WORLD POWER:
Peace through Defence


"History will record the DEN as the...uhh nevermind"

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Gorundu
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 56
Founded: May 02, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gorundu » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:16 am

So since she's ejected everyone from the region, it seems like a liberation wouldn't pass in time to stop that refound?
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Numero Capitan
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 419
Founded: Sep 27, 2007
Father Knows Best State

Postby Numero Capitan » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:06 am

Gorundu wrote:So since she's ejected everyone from the region, it seems like a liberation wouldn't pass in time to stop that refound?


She’ll only attempt a refound if the threat of liberation is there, so this needs to progress either way otherwise it leaves Shadow to steal the region from Oz in her own time.
A WORLD POWER:
Peace through Defence


"History will record the DEN as the...uhh nevermind"

00000 A World Power | The South Pacific | Conch Kingdom

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Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6027
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:37 am

Author, you planning to push this to vote? I’m a bit keen to myself if you’re not, but don’t want to make a competing proposal if you’re still working it. The sooner this could pass, should the community decide to support it, the better.

Offensive Liberations have been a widely accepted tactic for years now, do we really need to go through the whole song and dance of people pretending to have moral/ethical concerns again.
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5564
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:19 am

Support, except for the annoying timing >_>
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Galactic Republicc
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Jan 04, 2020
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Galactic Republicc » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:19 am

This seams like a attention seeking-idea.

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Red Millennium
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 23
Founded: Jan 21, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby Red Millennium » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:23 am

As long as more regions can be created, there is a safe haven for everyone. Which means this proposal is totally pointless.

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Yokiria
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 383
Founded: Jan 24, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yokiria » Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:13 am

I'm just really damn disappointed in Shadow. She's going to destroy her reputation as a raider if she keeps raiding with the Fossils.
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Gorundu
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 56
Founded: May 02, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gorundu » Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:18 am

What luck I have! I was going to submit it today, then it got refounded just last update. Don't know who it was though...

Anyway, consider this draft abandoned.
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Numero Capitan
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 419
Founded: Sep 27, 2007
Father Knows Best State

Postby Numero Capitan » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:20 am

I know who it was and this didn't go well for Shadow.

No doubt your proposal contributed to the end result, even if it wasn't in the way you intended!
A WORLD POWER:
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"History will record the DEN as the...uhh nevermind"

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Praeceps
Envoy
 
Posts: 275
Founded: Feb 08, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:47 pm

Better than having your proposal go to vote, be about to pass, and then the region gets refounded and there is 24 hours to get the vote to swing against. :p
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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5564
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:10 pm

Mission accomplished at least (most likely) :clap:
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Bhang Bhang Duc
Minister
 
Posts: 2035
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:18 pm

Praeceps wrote:Better than having your proposal go to vote, be about to pass, and then the region gets refounded and there is 24 hours to get the vote to swing against. :p

That’s true. :)
Former Delegate and Guardian of The West Pacific. TWP's Former Minister for World Assembly Affairs

The West Pacific's Official Welshman, Astronomer and Old Fart

Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

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