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[ABANDONED] Liberate Children of the Grave

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
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Gorundu
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Left-wing Utopia

[ABANDONED] Liberate Children of the Grave

Postby Gorundu » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:30 am

The Stalker wrote:
Fossils and Friends wrote:The Team:
A Dark Shadow (POINT) (Fossil)


Hmm interesting how A Dark Shadow lives in Children of the Grave, a now founderless raider region with a password...

What's that saying about glass houses and rocks... Be a shame if someone where to liberate it...

The Security Council,

Recognising that Children of the Grave is a raider region bent on destroying native communities,

Aware that it is now largely dormant,

Alarmed, however, that a member of the region has recently begun associating with raiders of ill repute, including those that hold the aboherrent ideology of fascism,

Believing this to be detrimental to nations and regions around the world,

Noting that its founder has ceased to exist and that the region is currently locked,

Resolving that a liberation is the best course of action to ensure this region never rises again,

Hereby liberates Children of the Grave.

Note: this draft was abandoned due to the region being refounded.
Last edited by Gorundu on Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:38 am

This is starting to look like (if it wasn’t explicitly clear before) an attention seeking exercise by the fossils that we can’t fix with a daily liberation.
Last edited by Bormiar on Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Praeceps
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:40 am

Gorundu wrote:The Security Council,

Recognising that Children of the Grave is a raider region bent on destroying native communities,

Aware that it is now largely dormant,

HoweverAlarmed that a member of the region has recently begun associating with raiders of ill repute, including those that hold the aboherrent ideology of fascism,

Believing this to be in the detrimental to of nations and regions around the world,

Noting that its founder has ceased to exist and that the region is currently locked,

Resolving that a liberation is the best course of action to ensure this region never rises again,

Hereby liberates Children of the Grave.
Suggested edits.

I'm for this liberation. :)
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:46 am

Nevermind I posted impulsively upon seeing “fossils” :P. I’m still against, but for the reason that I consider an offensive liberation to be an honor akin to that of condemnation.
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Gorundu
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gorundu » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:49 am

Bormiar wrote:Nevermind I posted impulsively upon seeing “fossils” :P. I’m still against, but for the reason that I consider an offensive liberation to be an honor akin to that of condemnation.

Wait...so you consider Liberate Nazi Europa and Liberate CCD to be an honour for them?
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Praeceps
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Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:50 am

Getting your region destroyed is an... honour?
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:52 am

Praeceps wrote:Getting your region destroyed is an... honour?

All they want is attention.
Gorundu wrote:
Bormiar wrote:Nevermind I posted impulsively upon seeing “fossils” :P. I’m still against, but for the reason that I consider an offensive liberation to be an honor akin to that of condemnation.

Wait...so you consider Liberate Nazi Europa and Liberate CCD to be an honour for them?

No no, they consider it to be an honor. But if you want my opinion, the main difference is that liberating for raiding suggests they actually did some influential stuff in raiding.
Authored 3 SCRs | Issue Author | The Rejected Realms' Current Media Officer | Founder of Chameleon

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Wayneactia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Sat Feb 08, 2020 1:01 am

Bormiar wrote:But if you want my opinion, the main difference is that liberating for raiding suggests they actually did some influential stuff in raiding.

Considering most of that crew are former riders and members of den, I would say that may have had a slight bit of influence. Also who cares if they find it to be an honor or not. When their region gets pillaged, much like they have no problems doing to anyone else, they may find themselves basking in saltwater instead of honor.

Support wholeheartedly.

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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:07 am

It is probably relevant to note that Shadow has been going round raider communities trying to find a group to utilise her allegedly number of high influence sleepers in recent months (and bragging about her history of region destruction) and Pars is likely to be the first region where this has happened, not the last. She has settled on utilising the support of fascists and blacklisted players to do so.

Curriculum Vitae

I started in the game in March 2003 and flirted with Raiding for the first year as a Mercenary/Soldier of Fortune supporting the likes of The Farkers and The Atlantic Alliance. I started a Raider region "The Dark Alliance" in '04 which I folded in '05 and was invited to join Children of the Grave. In '06 CotG set the record for most regions raided under the old UD system with one rolling UD per day. I was promoted to Field Marshal and Field Commander there. I was also the First Sea Lord in TUK back in the day.

Among the many other regions that I've been active in that come to mind, but not limited to, are/were Foxrite, Unknown, Grand Central, Iwaku, Blades of Conquest, have participated in the attempted revival of Blue Moon and Cathedral, and partnered with Knox and Forever Den in the revival of The Invaders. I have aided most of the majors in their operations. There have been many other startup regions that I have attempted to help that are long gone and whose names I can't even recall. Marriage, work, and children do cut into one's activity levels.

What I believe was my greatest accomplishment in Military Operations was the infiltration and subversion of the East Asian Dominion. It was a 150+ nation, passworded, region, whose password I obtained and the site of the first all girl raid in NationStates history. It later became raider bait after a subsequent raid by The Den removed its password.

Over the years I have become adept in Intelligence, Infiltrations, and Special Ops. I have developed a network of my dirty puppets, somewhere around 450, into an efficient infiltration/covert operations system which allows me to act as a Pointer with regional influence.


https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1294336
Last edited by Numero Capitan on Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayneactia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:48 am

You know, if any of that was even remotely surprising..... never mind

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The Stalker
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Postby The Stalker » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:35 am

Heh heh, I like how quickly my idea caught on. Support.

Bormiar wrote:I’m still against, but for the reason that I consider an offensive liberation to be an honor akin to that of condemnation.


But aren't you against offensive liberations because they "do nothing", this region is already founderless and a liberation would allow it to be raided. Ultimately the goal would be to liberate it, invade, then repeal it to secure the region.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:05 am

I was initially wondering if some effort should be made to give the region a chance to remove her, but having taken a look at the region, I'm not sure there is much of a community even left to be given that chance. The Grand Dilligaf has been inactive for 19 days, and I'm wondering if they're not just on an auto-login script at this point. The rest of the nations still remaining in the region look like they could just be Shadow's puppets.

Tentative support for this, I guess, though I'm a bit uneasy about completely torching a region of this much historical value over one person. If it's going to be destroyed, my preference would be to see it turned over to other raiders, such as perhaps The Black Hawks, for the region to be appropriately memorialized given its historical place in the game. I certainly wouldn't want to see it hawked as a trophy by 10000 Islands or something. But I suppose that's something to figure out after the password is removed, not before. In principle, given she's being harbored there, I support this.
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Great Algerstonia
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Postby Great Algerstonia » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:08 am

Opposed, as this isn’t how liberations are intended to work.
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Twins of Hearts
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:40 pm

Opposed, because, offensive liberations are stupid.

I mean, if you need extra extra help from the security council to even function in the r and d game, maybe you shouldnt be in the r and d end of the game. Just a thought

AGAINST
Last edited by Twins of Hearts on Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Vando0sa
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Vando0sa » Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:57 pm

EEP! opposed! My little nation Rachel Berry likes it there and don't wanna get banjected..
I raided a region and I liked it!

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Reventus Koth
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Reventus Koth » Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:12 pm

Twins of Hearts wrote:Opposed, because, offensive liberations are stupid.

I mean, if you need extra extra help from the security council to even function in the r and d game, maybe you shouldnt be in the r and d end of the game. Just a thought

AGAINST

Despite what's best for the game, I unfortunately have to deal with you and the people you've decided to hang around with in NS as you all continue to outstay your welcome.

Despite what's best for the game, Liberation proposals exist and can be used for any reason. Unfortunately, being a fossil doesn't exempt you from having to deal with the same new mechanics as everyone else in the game you insist on saddling with your presence.

I'm for this proposal until the moment Shadow ditches this crowd. Trust me when I say it's disgusting as a General of TBH to agree with the logic behind what Kuriko is pushing, but that should say a lot about how little value these players provide to the game.
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Wayneactia
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:39 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:Opposed, because, offensive liberations are stupid.

I mean, if you need extra extra help from the security council to even function in the r and d game, maybe you shouldn't be in the r and d end of the game. Just a thought

AGAINST

Pretty sure you opposing it, is all the more likely it will pass. 8)

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Gorundu
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Gorundu » Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:28 am

Vando0sa wrote:EEP! opposed! My little nation Rachel Berry likes it there and don't wanna get banjected..

Maybe you could get the little nation A Dark Shadow to stop working with fascists and blacklisted players? It would be all for the better.
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Jakker
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:22 am

There are a lot of layers to this whole situation. Obviously, it starts with there being players who have done things to warrant the general GP community to not want them involved in their regions. There also has been a reality that if other players work with this previously mentioned group, it would be bad for them politically and would not be good for the regions involved. All of that makes sense to me.

This proposal now seems to take it one step further by trying to punish a region that is no longer active and is simply there to remember former players who are not involved in this situation at all. As far as I can tell, the logic is that this would serve as a way to punish Shadow for engaging with these players and show others that if you do the same, there will be consequences. I also imagine that because they were raiding, it adds another element to this. I imagine if Shadow was involved in region-building in the same region as them, people would feel less passionate about it.

While I get the logic of where a lot of people are coming from, I also get why we got to this place. These players involved seem to still want to be part of the game and can only really do so by making their own regions. They have been involved in raiding groups in the past, so that is a way in which they connect. Shadow has been mainly involved in The Invaders as far as I can tell for the last few years. A region that is also inactive and largely shunned by the general GP community. I am not sure how she got involved with the rest of these folks, but I get it. She has a bunch of sleepers and this gives her a chance to use them. She probably has some connection to LWU or TBH, but maybe she didn't want to disconnect from TI for whatever reason. Additionally as far as I can tell, fascist regions were not helping with holding Pars until the Liberation attempt began (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Again, not a great move, but it just becomes a cycle of being backed into a corner.

From my experience watching moderation things, it seems like once a player has been shunned from an aspect of the game like DOS or maybe they feel like they have nothing to lose for whatever reason, it creates a mentality where they just don't care anymore and will do as much as they can to create a reaction, to annoy. Because at some point, it is easy for us to say "well if no one wants me, I will just make things worse for them." The goal in all of this seems to be for these blacklisted players to leave the game. Yet, I think that by doing so through antagonization, they are just motivated to stick around. This gives them a reason to stay in the game. When players leave the game, often it is because they get bored with it or other things just take priority.

All of this is to say, I get Liberating Pars. I get actively going super hard on liberating any regions that these players raid. I also get if Shadow's involvement with this group limits her ability to connect with other regions. But a Liberation proposal like this takes things to a level that feels pretty icky. It is now going beyond the specific players involved. And I am not sure what the gain will be beyond defenders raiding it and eventually refounding it.
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The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

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Wayneactia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:49 am

Letting defenders refound the region wouldn't serve much a purpose other than gloating. I would fully support the Hawks refounding the region, or even Mike and keeping it as a memorial to the good old days myself.

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Jakker
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Founded: May 17, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:30 am

Wayneactia wrote:Letting defenders refound the region wouldn't serve much a purpose other than gloating. I would fully support the Hawks refounding the region, or even Mike and keeping it as a memorial to the good old days myself.


I think there are a lot of ifs there. There isn't absolute control over who refounds the region and decides what to do with it. I think it is very likely that it will be used for gloating or at least to keep out of raider hands. Additionally, it is already a memorial to the old days. Shadow does not control the founder and is just a RO there. Would then Shadow not be allowed in the region if it were to be refounded? What if she is? Just seems like all a refound would do (even if the founder was a raider) would be for the region to lose its original founder.
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The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

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Red Millennium
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Founded: Jan 21, 2020
Capitalizt

Postby Red Millennium » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:38 am

Jakker wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Letting defenders refound the region wouldn't serve much a purpose other than gloating. I would fully support the Hawks refounding the region, or even Mike and keeping it as a memorial to the good old days myself.


I think there are a lot of ifs there. There isn't absolute control over who refounds the region and decides what to do with it. I think it is very likely that it will be used for gloating or at least to keep out of raider hands. Additionally, it is already a memorial to the old days. Shadow does not control the founder and is just a RO there. Would then Shadow not be allowed in the region if it were to be refounded? What if she is? Just seems like all a refound would do (even if the founder was a raider) would be for the region to lose its original founder.

Another thing that could happen is that Shadow steals the region back while the fendas are trying to refound it.

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Kuriko
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 am

Not really sure why I was dragged into this when I have nothing to do with this proposal Koth.
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Reventus Koth
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Reventus Koth » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:34 am

Kuriko wrote:Not really sure why I was dragged into this when I have nothing to do with this proposal Koth.

You're right, I shouldn't be posting so late. Apologies, you were on the mind because of Liberate Pars.
Formerly known as Ambroscus Koth, +1843 posts. Trust no one.

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Twins of Hearts
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Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:43 am

Kuriko wrote:Not really sure why I was dragged into this when I have nothing to do with this proposal Koth.


Your hands are covered in the filth of offensive liberations, Lenlyvit, kuriko, whatever your next rebranding shall be.

Everyone knows you used la navasse as your cats paw to pass the first few junk liberations, but you were one of the lead brainchild behind it.

Wayneactia wrote:Letting defenders refound the region wouldn't serve much a purpose other than gloating. I would fully support the Hawks refounding the region, or even Mike and keeping it as a memorial to the good old days myself.


Wayne, I do not even know who you ar, but you presume too much, and know too little. I think you need to bone up on who is what etc.

I remain, staunchly against, discontent, nay on this junk liberation attempt.

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