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[Draft] Commend Twobagger

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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:09 pm

Kuriko wrote:I don't write for the badge either, I write for the enjoyment of it. And because I write for the enjoyment of it I actively search for members of the community I think deserve commending or condemning. Plenty of proposals are in the works, but plenty more can be written.

Edit: Anyways, thanks for answering.


Of course! :hug:

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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:27 am

Can't support this proposal, probably in any form. Anything within this Twobagger could have built on towards a future commendation is probably redundant now.
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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:37 am

Numero Capitan wrote:Anything within this Twobagger could have built on towards a future commendation is probably redundant now.


Could you clarify what you mean by this?

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McMasterdonia
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Postby McMasterdonia » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:04 am

once you stop being a defender you’re not worth commending /s
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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:17 am

Jakker City wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:Anything within this Twobagger could have built on towards a future commendation is probably redundant now.


Could you clarify what you mean by this?


That I wouldn’t have considered Twobagger an obvious candidate for commendation six months ago and anything since and to come will probably undermine whatever case there was
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Louisistan
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Postby Louisistan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:16 am

Drop the pretence, this is quite obviously an attempt to stick it to 10ki once more. You know it, I know it, you'll claim that it's not true, I'll maintain that it is. Let's just skip the whole three pages of doing that. I just want to put it on record, seeing as voters may want to be aware of it.

As to the alledged "villifcation", our esteemed Delegate has already explained that the emotions expressed by members of our community are just that: Emotions. If you do not want to hurt people, do not hurt them. If you choose to do something that hurts people, face the music. Twobagger was well aware of the high regard and respect in which he was held. He chose to abandon a community that does not tolerate raiding to go and raid, thus showing us that his values and our did not align after all. People were disappointed and voiced that disappointment. There is no villification.

The official response of 10000 Island was banning him (as we ban every raider as a matter of regional security) and asking members not to communicate any regional or military happenings to Twobagger. Both those things are reasonable and to be expected.

10000 Islands has had first-hand experience with the unpleasantness of being raided and our culture has been built on opposition to the notion that raiding is a harmless bit of fun to be had on NS. Raiders don't like that, I get it. They'd prefer we pat them on the back and tell them what great fun we have going up against them. That's not the reason we defend. It's the reason why some other people defend, and I don't judge. But 10000 Islands will never be part of that system. No matter how often you try to use the Security Council as a weapon against us.

That is all I have to say on this draft.
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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:26 am

Louisistan wrote:Drop the pretence, this is quite obviously an attempt to stick it to 10ki once more. You know it, I know it, you'll claim that it's not true, I'll maintain that it is. Let's just skip the whole three pages of doing that. I just want to put it on record, seeing as voters may want to be aware of it.

As to the alledged "villifcation", our esteemed Delegate has already explained that the emotions expressed by members of our community are just that: Emotions. If you do not want to hurt people, do not hurt them. If you choose to do something that hurts people, face the music. Twobagger was well aware of the high regard and respect in which he was held. He chose to abandon a community that does not tolerate raiding to go and raid, thus showing us that his values and our did not align after all. People were disappointed and voiced that disappointment. There is no villification.

The official response of 10000 Island was banning him (as we ban every raider as a matter of regional security) and asking members not to communicate any regional or military happenings to Twobagger. Both those things are reasonable and to be expected.

10000 Islands has had first-hand experience with the unpleasantness of being raided and our culture has been built on opposition to the notion that raiding is a harmless bit of fun to be had on NS. Raiders don't like that, I get it. They'd prefer we pat them on the back and tell them what great fun we have going up against them. That's not the reason we defend. It's the reason why some other people defend, and I don't judge. But 10000 Islands will never be part of that system. No matter how often you try to use the Security Council as a weapon against us.

That is all I have to say on this draft.


Please know that I and many raiders LOVE XKI's moralist stance on raiding. I would hate for you all to pat raiders on the back :P That has nothing to do with the proposal at hand. You are trying to rationalize what XKI does, but I feel like you can do all of those things you mentioned without the level of negative treatment that Twobagger has received. It is that next level extreme view that is disheartening. Twobagger has contributed a lot and continues to display values of maturity and integrity. I cannot understand why that wouldn't be commendable.
Last edited by Jakker City on Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:51 am

Jakker City wrote:
Louisistan wrote:Drop the pretence, this is quite obviously an attempt to stick it to 10ki once more. You know it, I know it, you'll claim that it's not true, I'll maintain that it is. Let's just skip the whole three pages of doing that. I just want to put it on record, seeing as voters may want to be aware of it.

As to the alledged "villifcation", our esteemed Delegate has already explained that the emotions expressed by members of our community are just that: Emotions. If you do not want to hurt people, do not hurt them. If you choose to do something that hurts people, face the music. Twobagger was well aware of the high regard and respect in which he was held. He chose to abandon a community that does not tolerate raiding to go and raid, thus showing us that his values and our did not align after all. People were disappointed and voiced that disappointment. There is no villification.

The official response of 10000 Island was banning him (as we ban every raider as a matter of regional security) and asking members not to communicate any regional or military happenings to Twobagger. Both those things are reasonable and to be expected.

10000 Islands has had first-hand experience with the unpleasantness of being raided and our culture has been built on opposition to the notion that raiding is a harmless bit of fun to be had on NS. Raiders don't like that, I get it. They'd prefer we pat them on the back and tell them what great fun we have going up against them. That's not the reason we defend. It's the reason why some other people defend, and I don't judge. But 10000 Islands will never be part of that system. No matter how often you try to use the Security Council as a weapon against us.

That is all I have to say on this draft.


Please know that I and many raiders LOVE XKI's moralist stance on raiding. I would hate for you all to pat raiders on the back :P That has nothing to do with the proposal at hand. You are trying to rationalize what XKI does, but I feel like you can do all of those things you mentioned without the level of negative treatment that Twobagger has received. It is that next level extreme view that is disheartening. Twobagger has contributed a lot and continues to display values of maturity and integrity. I cannot understand why that wouldn't be commendable.

Yes, going through after we liberated Cheddar from TBH and co and toying with TITO members by endorsing only TITO members is showing maturity and integrity. Especially when he knows how TITO members feel about his switch. :unsure:
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:56 am

Louisistan wrote:As to the alledged "villifcation", our esteemed Delegate has already explained that the emotions expressed by members of our community are just that: Emotions. If you do not want to hurt people, do not hurt them. If you choose to do something that hurts people, face the music. Twobagger was well aware of the high regard and respect in which he was held. He chose to abandon a community that does not tolerate raiding to go and raid, thus showing us that his values and our did not align after all. People were disappointed and voiced that disappointment. There is no villification.

A member of TITO Command called him "a piece of shit." Find ways to rationalize it if you'd like, but don't try to claim there was no vilification.

Louisistan wrote:10000 Islands has had first-hand experience with the unpleasantness of being raided and our culture has been built on opposition to the notion that raiding is a harmless bit of fun to be had on NS. Raiders don't like that, I get it. They'd prefer we pat them on the back and tell them what great fun we have going up against them. That's not the reason we defend. It's the reason why some other people defend, and I don't judge. But 10000 Islands will never be part of that system. No matter how often you try to use the Security Council as a weapon against us.

Firsthand experience with being raided? Yeah, in like, 2003 or something wasn't it? How many of you were even here then? Give me a break.

Regardless, I think you're way overestimating the importance of 10000 Islands. I won't speak for Jakker because he does fine speaking for himself, but personally I support this proposal because Twobagger was one of the best defenders of 2019. He didn't win Defender of the Year for nothing. You can't just act like he did nothing commendable now because he's done things you don't like; he was still one of the best defenders of last year, if not the best. That's why I support this proposal, and the fact that it also doesn't shy away from briefly mentioning the extremist culture of 10000 Islands is just gravy.
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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:21 am

Wanted to keep this to the matter at hand but as people are continuing to push this button - voting for himself as Defender of the Year from his raider nation, and requesting embassies with 10KI on raids are not exactly maturity and integrity.

Sadly, this seems more of a chance for TBH to dangle this over 10KI, rub salt into the wound and Cormac to accuse people of things - not what the Security Council is for. The timing is rather lacking in class and a few people have lost my respect over this.
Last edited by Numero Capitan on Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:35 am

Numero Capitan wrote:a few people have lost my respect over this.

I'm sure they're all broken up about it too.
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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:39 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:a few people have lost my respect over this.

I'm sure they're all broken up about it too.


Only certain types of people are dignified enough to value respect
Last edited by Numero Capitan on Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:46 am

Numero Capitan wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:I'm sure they're all broken up about it too.


Only certain types of people are dignified enough to value respect

Certain types of people value respect from people they, in turn, respect, which is to say people who have earned their respect. Such individuals don't much care whether the chattering, mediocre masses pay them any respect or not, because they also have no respect whatsoever for the great middling mob.

In any case, I hope to see Twobagger, one of the most active and dedicated defenders of 2019, commended. It would be nice to see a defender who was recognized by the entire gameplay community as an outstanding defender last year commended, instead of some of the no-name defenders put forward for commendation by members of 10000 Islands, who seem to think they have become the gatekeepers of who deserves commendation.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Benevolent Thomas
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Postby Benevolent Thomas » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:53 am

Numero Capitan wrote:Can't support this proposal, probably in any form. Anything within this Twobagger could have built on towards a future commendation is probably redundant now.

Numero Capitan wrote:
Jakker City wrote:
Could you clarify what you mean by this?


That I wouldn’t have considered Twobagger an obvious candidate for commendation six months ago and anything since and to come will probably undermine whatever case there was

Numero Capitan wrote:Wanted to keep this to the matter at hand but as people are continuing to push this button - Lying about OOC issues behind his unavailability, voting for himself as Defender of the Year from his raider nation, and requesting embassies with 10KI on raids are not exactly maturity and integrity.

Sadly, this seems more of a chance for TBH to dangle this over 10KI, rub salt into the wound and Cormac to accuse people of things - not what the Security Council is for. The timing is rather lacking in class and a few people have lost my respect over this.

I had decided I was going to put my two cents into this conversation, only to see that Numero has already said what I was going to say. Had Twobagger joined TGW instead of TBH, would we all be here? Literally, the commendation would read the same way. As a fellow treasonous villain (I even was accused of plotting my betrayal months in advance), I really do sympathize with Twobagger. Twobagger, you have my support in general, but I do not believe you've warranted a commendation yet.
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Postby Aenglaland » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:55 am

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Raiding is not "progress and innovation", against.

I beg to disagree :p

Anyway, full support. Seems like some people are already annoyed by this proposal (as expected), but Twobagger really deserves this.
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Benevolent Thomas
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Postby Benevolent Thomas » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:55 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:instead of some of the no-name defenders put forward for commendation by members of 10000 Islands

I wont be voting for your commendation either, jerk :hug:

jk of course

well, the jerk part, anyway
Ballotonia wrote:Personally, I think there's something seriously wrong with a game if it willfully allows the destruction of longtime player communities in favor of kids whose sole purpose is to enjoy ruining the game for others.

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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:00 am

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Had Twobagger joined TGW instead of TBH, would we all be here? Literally, the commendation would read the same way.

Can't speak for whether Jakker would still have authored a commendation, but I would still have supported one, because Twobagger was one of the best defenders of 2019 and more deserving of commendation than the numerous commended defenders no one outside 10000 Islands has ever even heard of.

Benevolent Thomas wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:instead of some of the no-name defenders put forward for commendation by members of 10000 Islands

I wont be voting for your commendation either, jerk :hug:

jk of course

well, the jerk part, anyway

Hey! I voted for yours. :mad:

Of course it took three tries before I voted for it but that's not important.
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:06 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Benevolent Thomas wrote:Had Twobagger joined TGW instead of TBH, would we all be here? Literally, the commendation would read the same way.

Can't speak for whether Jakker would still have authored a commendation, but I would still have supported one, because Twobagger was one of the best defenders of 2019 and more deserving of commendation than the numerous commended defenders no one outside 10000 Islands has ever even heard of.


Arguably Twobagger was in that category until 2019, plus given that we only just commended the likes of BT I am not sure simply being one of the most active 5-10 defenders for a year warrants commendation yet, or we would have a lot more of them. They're generally reserved for those nations that have had major leadership roles and impacts on the game that go beyond simply defending, and rightly so.
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:18 am

Numero Capitan wrote:Arguably Twobagger was in that category until 2019, plus given that we only just commended the likes of BT I am not sure simply being one of the most active 5-10 defenders for a year warrants commendation yet, or we would have a lot more of them. They're generally reserved for those nations that have had major leadership roles and impacts on the game that go beyond simply defending, and rightly so.

Correction: They used to be reserved for that, but now we just pass them out like candy to whoever 10000 Islands suggests, so I see no reason Twobagger -- someone the entire gameplay community and not just 10000 Islands selected as Defender of the Year last year -- shouldn't be commended.
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Postby Marxist Germany » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:21 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:Arguably Twobagger was in that category until 2019, plus given that we only just commended the likes of BT I am not sure simply being one of the most active 5-10 defenders for a year warrants commendation yet, or we would have a lot more of them. They're generally reserved for those nations that have had major leadership roles and impacts on the game that go beyond simply defending, and rightly so.

Correction: They used to be reserved for that, but now we just pass them out like candy to whoever 10000 Islands suggests, so I see no reason Twobagger -- someone the entire gameplay community and not just 10000 Islands selected as Defender of the Year last year -- shouldn't be commended.

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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:30 am

Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Grays Harbour has nothing to do with XKI.

He was the longtime Delegate of a region closely allied with Texas, one of XKI's closest allies, and was in the Texas Defense Forces, which works extremely closely with TITO and has for pretty much its entire existence. It was clearly a case of XKI back-patting an obscure ally. Nice try though.
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Postby Sargon Reman » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:33 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:Arguably Twobagger was in that category until 2019, plus given that we only just commended the likes of BT I am not sure simply being one of the most active 5-10 defenders for a year warrants commendation yet, or we would have a lot more of them. They're generally reserved for those nations that have had major leadership roles and impacts on the game that go beyond simply defending, and rightly so.

Correction: They used to be reserved for that, but now we just pass them out like candy to whoever 10000 Islands suggests, so I see no reason Twobagger -- someone the entire gameplay community and not just 10000 Islands selected as Defender of the Year last year -- shouldn't be commended.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:36 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:Arguably Twobagger was in that category until 2019, plus given that we only just commended the likes of BT I am not sure simply being one of the most active 5-10 defenders for a year warrants commendation yet, or we would have a lot more of them. They're generally reserved for those nations that have had major leadership roles and impacts on the game that go beyond simply defending, and rightly so.

Correction: They used to be reserved for that, but now we just pass them out like candy to whoever 10000 Islands suggests, so I see no reason Twobagger -- someone the entire gameplay community and not just 10000 Islands selected as Defender of the Year last year -- shouldn't be commended.

So wait, let me get this straight. You're saying that somebody who was elected Defender of the Year for one, one, year in 2019 is more deserving of a commendation than somebody who has dedicated 10 years to defending others? Than two other people who have dedicated 9 years to defending others? Than FA directors who were elected delegate in NS's largest UCR? Okay then, nice to see the definition of commendable shifted from years of dedicated service to one year of dedicated service.
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Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 am

Considering how XKIers have treated him since his switch, I can only assume Twobagger has the patience of a saint having put up with such a toxic lot for so long.

And for that reason, I'm in favour of this.
Last edited by The Notorious Mad Jack on Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:44 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Numero Capitan wrote:Arguably Twobagger was in that category until 2019, plus given that we only just commended the likes of BT I am not sure simply being one of the most active 5-10 defenders for a year warrants commendation yet, or we would have a lot more of them. They're generally reserved for those nations that have had major leadership roles and impacts on the game that go beyond simply defending, and rightly so.

Correction: They used to be reserved for that, but now we just pass them out like candy to whoever 10000 Islands suggests, so I see no reason Twobagger -- someone the entire gameplay community and not just 10000 Islands selected as Defender of the Year last year -- shouldn't be commended.


You missed my point a little here, those commendations are for a wide-body of work from those individuals. Only one of the nine clauses in Markanite's commendation are for defending, two out of seven for Grays Harbor, three out of nine for Woonsocket, three out of eleven for Paffnia. They have all been prominent leaders within their respective regions and recognised as such.

In contrast the proposal is solely for defending, with little notable contributions in the upper echelons of regional or military organisation or leadership.
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