[DEFEATED] Commend Twobagger

[Daytime to Night]

It is hard to start with what a lot of Numero said because several of his statements counter what I put in there.

There is a reason for that...

There is no mention of raiding or that Twobagger is a raider. I am not sure how to add detail to these clauses and explain why it is commendable that Twobagger handled the switch fairly well without explaining what he had to deal with and obviously then I will be accused of the proposal trying to go against XKI. Do you have any suggestions there?

Has anyone handled a switch badly? As far as I am aware the majority of people switching sides have handled it successfully. They may have taken some flak or been shunned by their old regionmates, but most of them take it in stride. It just doesn't seem commendable to me, the fact that TBH celebrate the fact that TB switched at length (and are still trying to twist the dagger here) doesn't make it any more commendable than others (hence the raised eyebrows at this proposal).

There were no such references in Commend Severisen, for example (who also wrote an article about switching sides), and this just feels like filler that is only deemed worthy of inclusion from the lack of diverse reasons for the Commend itself. And as HS has reasonably set out (and I note you've ignored these clear points in your response), there were a number of good reasons why I wouldn't hold up TB as the poster child for switching sides.

At this point, it feels like simply attempting to commend Twobagger, regardless of what is written, would go against XKI's interest.

Jakker, you seem incapable of taking on reasonable discussion without dismissing the other party as soon as you're running out of responses. I suggest you go away and objectively consider the merits of this proposal rather than trying to piledriver it through so TBH can get itself another badge. Commenters can clearly both consider that the proposal has insufficient merit on face value and also have good detailed reasons as to why that is the case.

IMO it speaks for itself that no defender ever attempted to commend Twobagger after 12 years of service, but if you want further objective evidence I have trawled through the nominations for every single award in the 13 year history of the Defender awards, and TB wasn't even nominated for a single award until last year*. There are literally hundreds of defenders that earned nominations over that time, and some awards had up to 16 nominees. Are you planning on proposing to commend Deathorlife, Neanbear, Kickin Boots, Tupelope or Tycholand for similar accomplishments? Or do you only care about defender nations that are active in NSGP and joined TBH?

*I did enjoy discovering that I made the ballot for the intel award in 2014, thanks Karp/Mek/Tim and the people you tricked into thinking I must have done something that year

[Jabberwocky]

My apology for speaking in a manner of which my associates disapprove...but not for the opinion

[Dyanderna]

Twobagger is a spineless traitor, despicable to the nth degree. Against

Ah yes, a most wonderfully insightful comment from an XKIer. BTW, you don't need to tell us you are voting against, we all know you will be because of where you are from.

Are you planning on proposing to commend Deathorlife, Neanbear, Kickin Boots, Tupelope or Tycholand for similar accomplishments? Or do you only care about defender nations that are active in NSGP and joined TBH?

Obviously I cannot talk explicitly for Jakker here but he has said that the only reason he has done this commend is because he knows about what Twobagger has managed to do since he joined TBH and since he doesn't have much contact with those people you have mentioned he isn't going to go off and try and commend them, the commendation itself isn't to go and poke fun against XKI and say "hey, remember Twobagger? He's with us now ha ha ha" this commendation was made because he was able to learn about all the actions that TB has done in XKI up to and including how he acted when he switched.

(edited again with more clarity in my meaning)

[The Unified Missourtama States]

There are literally hundreds of defenders that earned nominations over that time, and some awards had up to 16 nominees. Are you planning on proposing to commend Deathorlife, Neanbear, Kickin Boots, Tupelope or Tycholand for similar accomplishments? Or do you only care about defender nations that are active in NSGP and joined TBH?

Kind of unimportant but Tupelope is CTE'd.

[Daytime to Night]

Are you planning on proposing to commend Deathorlife, Neanbear, Kickin Boots, Tupelope or Tycholand for similar accomplishments? Or do you only care about defender nations that are active in NSGP and joined TBH?

Obviously I cannot talk explicitly for Jakker here but he has said that the only reason he has done this commend is because he knows about what Twobagger has managed to do since he joined TBH and since he doesn't have much contact with those people you have mentioned he isn't going to go off and try and commend them, the commendation itself isn't to go and poke fun against XKI and say "hey, remember Twobagger? He's with us now ha ha ha" this commendation was made because he was able to learn about all the actions that TB has done in XKI up to and including how he acted when he switched.

(edited again with more clarity in my meaning)

Completely fair, if he was also willing to accept that such a proposal might not be merited - which he isn't remotely willing to entertain from his responses so far.

The dogged determination to rewrite history and place Twobagger on a pedestal increasingly comes across as TBH trying to twist the knife rather than innocently floating the possibility that this proposal has merit.

[HumanSanity]

I'm just going to speak to Jabber's comment for a moment. I do not want an exaggerated or incomplete narrative to take over.

I do not agree with his comment on a personal level. My belief in defending, and in moralist defending (for lack of a better term), is based in compassion for natives and not hatred for raiders. I think raiding is hurtful, I think it violates other people's sovereignty and autonomy. However compassion also dictates it is important to try to understand raiders' approaches despite my fundamental disagreements, even if on the battle field and in political situations they are an enemy who must be beaten.

Twobagger hurt people by switching. I had hoped that healing process was more complete than it is, but clearly it's not.

I will speak to Jabber privately about why I do not agree with his perspective. That dialogue about why we defend is important to have. I ask for space to do that without a dog pile.

[Jakker City]

Jakker, you seem incapable of taking on reasonable discussion without dismissing the other party as soon as you're running out of responses. I suggest you go away and objectively consider the merits of this proposal rather than trying to piledriver it through so TBH can get itself another badge. Commenters can clearly both consider that the proposal has insufficient merit on face value and also have good detailed reasons as to why that is the case.

IMO it speaks for itself that no defender ever attempted to commend Twobagger after 12 years of service, but if you want further objective evidence I have trawled through the nominations for every single award in the 13 year history of the Defender awards, and TB wasn't even nominated for a single award until last year*. There are literally hundreds of defenders that earned nominations over that time, and some awards had up to 16 nominees. Are you planning on proposing to commend Deathorlife, Neanbear, Kickin Boots, Tupelope or Tycholand for similar accomplishments? Or do you only care about defender nations that are active in NSGP and joined TBH?

*I did enjoy discovering that I made the ballot for the intel award in 2014, thanks Karp/Mek/Tim and the people you tricked into thinking I must have done something that year

When feedback regarding the specifics of the proposal has been given, I have taken it into account. I have actively worked to update the proposal on multiple occasions. I promise you that I never run out of responses and never will. And my response to you is that I see nothing wrong with taking specific feedback for the proposal to make it better and also calling out bias. For example, you flat out said that you are opposed to all commendations and condemnations that involve TBH members. You have refused to offer additional reasoning for that. So I already know where you would stand even if Twobagger did 20 more awesome things. With that said, I have still considered your specific feedback and those of others in regards to this proposal. Nearly all of the commenters that you mention since my large revision in August have been members of XKI and you. Not really a great sample size of whether this proposal has merit.

I also am really confused by this argument that you and other defenders are trying to make about "well if we commend twobagger, we need to commend all these other defenders who don't deserve it" or "this proposal opens the floodgates and are you going to write a commendation for all these other people?" Why are you trying to dismiss the accomplishments of others just to push the agenda of getting this proposal not to pass? If you want to think to yourself that various defenders are not worthy of commendations that is up to you, but fortunately it is up to NS at large to decide.

As I have said several times, I do not have the knowledge to write something for those people and others that have been mentioned. And if you are so worried that passing this proposal will suddenly make it where these others will be looked at for a commendation, GOOD! I would be more than happy to attempt to write something later if you want to send me information. There are plenty of players out there that are doing great things and may not even be getting the recognition they deserve in their own communities. We should all be trying to recognize player accomplishments and I am happy to assist with that. Rather than trying to gate keep who should get a proposal written for them, I would love to see you take a stab at writing something. And since apparently my involvement is so necessary, I will make sure to share a few tips.

[Jabberwocky]

I defer to Human Sanity's eminently diplomatic approach, and will try to learn from it when stating my views henceforth, but my opinion remains the same.

[Daytime to Night]

I also am really confused by this argument that you and other defenders are trying to make about "well if we commend twobagger, we need to commend all these other defenders who don't deserve it" or "this proposal opens the floodgates and are you going to write a commendation for all these other people?" Why are you trying to dismiss the accomplishments of others just to push the agenda of getting this proposal not to pass? If you want to think to yourself that various defenders are not worthy of commendations that is up to you, but fortunately it is up to NS at large to decide.

As I have said several times, I do not have the knowledge to write something for those people and others that have been mentioned. And if you are so worried that passing this proposal will suddenly make it where these others will be looked at for a commendation, GOOD! I would be more than happy to attempt to write something later if you want to send me information. There are plenty of players out there that are doing great things and may not even be getting the recognition they deserve in their own communities. We should all be trying to recognize player accomplishments and I am happy to assist with that. Rather than trying to gate keep who should get a proposal written for them, I would love to see you take a stab at writing something. And since apparently my involvement is so necessary, I will make sure to share a few tips.

I would love to give a badge to every nation that contributes to the defender cause, but it diminishes the value of this recognition, which should rightly be reserved for those who have truly earned it.

My point is not to diminish the contributions of others (who are rightfully recognised in annual awards where their presence has been particularly notable, including Twobagger in 2019), but to emphasise that your knowledge of Twobagger is rather amplified by their presence in an NSGP discord channel (which has no bearing on in-game accomplishments) and their switch to your region. We are all biased in favour of those we work with, I think Neasmyrna is as deserving as anyone of a commendation, but when I have floated the idea before no-one has been particularly supportive.

Bias needs to be recognised (from both sides), and that is why I went through fourteen years of nomination threads to see where Twobagger's contributions were considered noteworthy rather than trust my own perception of their contribution.

I am opposed to TBH disrupting the democratic functions of this body and trying to impose their own views onto it in a disproportionate manner - that is arrogance and needs to be called out. It should have consequences and other people should take that stance too or it will increasingly undermine the point of any of this. That doesn't prevent me from measuring the achievements of its members and making a judgement of whether their contributions reach the quantum I would expect from a proposal. Rai and Souls meet that bar in my opinion, this doesn't.

I am always happy to help people refine their proposals to present the best case to the Security Council. In this case I think your proposal has a lot of filler, from uncommendable accomplishments, and you should remove references to serving as an ambassador etc, that are not remotely remarkable and see where the strengths of the proposal lie from there. My suggestion is that those strengths are probably quite light compared to proposals that have passed and I don't see anyone running to defend the proposal other than to make the same tired anti-XKI comments (which are unfortunately counter-balanced by unnecessary bitterness from the other side).

In my opinion, individuals should be commended or condemned for one or more of the following:

- Leadership
- Innovation
- Impact
- Notoriety

That is generally the lens I try to see proposals through. I don't see any real merit in this proposal when considered against those criteria, that is the bottom line.

We should all be trying to recognize player accomplishments and I am happy to assist with that. Rather than trying to gate keep who should get a proposal written for them, I would love to see you take a stab at writing something. And since apparently my involvement is so necessary, I will make sure to share a few tips.

Who says I haven't already...

Weird comment, this forum is intended for discussing proposals. No-one is criticising the likes of BBD for commenting without having an author badge on their nation. You seem incapable of taking my comments at face value without trying to find the hidden reason for supportive comments or undermine me for constructive criticism. It might benefit you to see some things without the veil of hostility you seem to apply in a blanket-fashion.

[Jakker City]

We should all be trying to recognize player accomplishments and I am happy to assist with that. Rather than trying to gate keep who should get a proposal written for them, I would love to see you take a stab at writing something. And since apparently my involvement is so necessary, I will make sure to share a few tips.

Who says I haven't already...

Weird comment, this forum is intended for discussing proposals. No-one is criticising the likes of BBD for commenting without having an author badge on their nation. You seem incapable of taking my comments at face value without trying to find the hidden reason for supportive comments or undermine me for constructive criticism. It might benefit you to see some things without the veil of hostility you seem to apply in a blanket-fashion.

That is not me criticizing you or anyone for not having a badge and you know that. That is in reference to my point that if you think there are other players out there that deserve recognition or acknowledgement, you should focus on writing those rather than crafting this abstract line of who is deserving of SC recognition. I have not undermined any constructive criticism. As I have noted repeatedly, I have actively taken specific notes about the proposal and have worked to incorporate them within the draft. I just took your notes about the regional ambassador bullet and edited it. Saying that TB's accomplishments does not reach commendation-level in your mind is a personal opinion.

We are all biased in favour of those we work with, I think Neasmyrna is as deserving as anyone of a commendation, but when I have floated the idea before no-one has been particularly supportive.

As you can see from this thread, multiple parties have expressed support for this proposal and commending Twobagger. Does that make everyone who votes in favor of this biased?

As for your criteria for SC recognition:

- Leadership: Twobagger has displayed this on multiple occasions and that is articulated in the proposal. He had several leadership positions within XKI both in the military and within the region. Even when he was not in a position, his work in recruitment was huge at a time when everything had to be done manually. Also, he built community through several initiatives and just being a really good region mate.
- Innovation: Again this is articulated in the proposal. His work as a senator set the stage for how XKI handles salaries today. He thought of the tactic to change delegacies during raids which has been used several times over the last year or so. The tool he developed to detect raids was effective in stopping several raids before they happened.
- Impact: It is hard not to see how TB left a lasting impact on XKI. As I have noted, recruitment, community-building, military innovations, and overall defending all matter. Also his work to train other military members is important as well. Those achievements are not just impactful for XKI but for NS at large especially when looking at stopping raids before they happened and designing a new tactic against raids. Additionally, his essay on various dynamics to consider with switching is important and impactful. I have already heard several people who have read the essay and have really appreciated the additional insight it gave them when reflecting on where they are in NS and where they want to be.
- Notoriety: I would say this is the one criterion that you have mentioned that TB does not have. I would argue there are multiple reasons for this. Yes, he was away for a few years. But more than that, I think as a player, he has always been one to work behind the scenes. I don't think he has ever been one to actively seek out attention or fame. There are tons of worthy players out there like that and that should not work against them. I agree that it is easier to comprehend and digest flashy moves. I know all about flashy moves. But I think there is a lot of value and need for us to reflect beyond that. In my opinion, I have worked hard to make this proposal articulate the various tangible accomplishments that TB has had as well as the intangibles. And I hope that others see that as well. This proposal in no way diminishes what a commendation is. If anything, passing this would help to show that getting a commendation is hard and takes a lot of work, but even if you are not a player that tons of people know about, what you have given and done for the game and for many players in it should speak for itself.

I look forward to submitting this proposal soon. Anyone is welcomed to share any last bits of feedback.

[Daytime to Night]

As for your criteria for SC recognition:

- Leadership: Twobagger has displayed this on multiple occasions and that is articulated in the proposal. He had several leadership positions within XKI both in the military and within the region. Even when he was not in a position, his work in recruitment was huge at a time when everything had to be done manually. Also, he built community through several initiatives and just being a really good region mate.
- Innovation: Again this is articulated in the proposal. His work as a senator set the stage for how XKI handles salaries today. He thought of the tactic to change delegacies during raids which has been used several times over the last year or so. The tool he developed to detect raids was effective in stopping several raids before they happened.
- Impact: It is hard not to see how TB left a lasting impact on XKI. As I have noted, recruitment, community-building, military innovations, and overall defending all matter. Also his work to train other military members is important as well. Those achievements are not just impactful for XKI but for NS at large especially when looking at stopping raids before they happened and designing a new tactic against raids. Additionally, his essay on various dynamics to consider with switching is important and impactful. I have already heard several people who have read the essay and have really appreciated the additional insight it gave them when reflecting on where they are in NS and where they want to be.
- Notoriety: I would say this is the one criterion that you have mentioned that TB does not have. I would argue there are multiple reasons for this. Yes, he was away for a few years. But more than that, I think as a player, he has always been one to work behind the scenes. I don't think he has ever been one to actively seek out attention or fame. There are tons of worthy players out there like that and that should not work against them. I agree that it is easier to comprehend and digest flashy moves. I know all about flashy moves. But I think there is a lot of value and need for us to reflect beyond that. In my opinion, I have worked hard to make this proposal articulate the various tangible accomplishments that TB has had as well as the intangibles. And I hope that others see that as well. This proposal in no way diminishes what a commendation is. If anything, passing this would help to show that getting a commendation is hard and takes a lot of work, but even if you are not a player that tons of people know about, what you have given and done for the game and for many players in it should speak for itself.

I look forward to submitting this proposal soon. Anyone is welcomed to share any last bits of feedback.

Honestly, this sets out a better case than the actual text of the resolution and you should probably dress it up more by talking about a 'lasting impact' on 10KI rather than referring to those things as 'participating' in a recruitment contest and 'strengthen'ing defender operations.

The reference to 'tireless efforts' in defending still makes me laugh every time I read back and I can't avoid getting hung up on that, because TB tired of it completely.

Designed technology that detected and stopped several foreign threats attempting to overtake a region;

I have literally no idea what this is, and no-one has elaborated on this. If it is something that TITO use then you should get more information from twobagger because they're unlikely to explain it. It seems inconsequential to me though.

[A Bloodred Moon]

Designed technology that detected and stopped several foreign threats attempting to overtake a region;

I have literally no idea what this is, and no-one has elaborated on this. If it is something that TITO use then you should get more information from twobagger because they're unlikely to explain it. It seems inconsequential to me though.

I would disagree. Many of LWU’s stealth raids were tracked down and stopped by TITO last year because of Twobagger’s tool. I don’t know the exact details, but it was most certainly effective. I don’t believe TITO uses it now, which would explain why several of our raids with clean puppets have gone unnoticed and succeeded. When they did use it, though, they had a high success rate.

[Jakker City]

I have literally no idea what this is, and no-one has elaborated on this. If it is something that TITO use then you should get more information from twobagger because they're unlikely to explain it. It seems inconsequential to me though.

I would disagree. Many of LWU’s stealth raids were tracked down and stopped by TITO last year because of Twobagger’s tool. I don’t know the exact details, but it was most certainly effective. I don’t believe TITO uses it now, which would explain why several of our raids with clean puppets have gone unnoticed and succeeded. When they did use it, though, they had a high success rate.

As far as I know, it was a script that only TITO command had access to and there were multiple raids that it prevented.

Honestly, this sets out a better case than the actual text of the resolution and you should probably dress it up more by talking about a 'lasting impact' on 10KI rather than referring to those things as 'participating' in a recruitment contest and 'strengthen'ing defender operations.

The reference to 'tireless efforts' in defending still makes me laugh every time I read back and I can't avoid getting hung up on that, because TB tired of it completely.

I feel like everything I said was pulled in that post was from the proposal. I'll see what I can do about articulating impact better and maybe using that language more directly.

[Daytime to Night]

I would disagree. Many of LWU’s stealth raids were tracked down and stopped by TITO last year because of Twobagger’s tool. I don’t know the exact details, but it was most certainly effective. I don’t believe TITO uses it now, which would explain why several of our raids with clean puppets have gone unnoticed and succeeded. When they did use it, though, they had a high success rate.

As far as I know, it was a script that only TITO command had access to and there were multiple raids that it prevented.

Sounds like an imitation of one of Roavin's creations but potentially hard to know for certain.

[Markanite]

[*]Received recognition for all of these actions by the leader of Commended nation and Chief Executive of 10000 Islands, Markanite, as “going above and beyond to look after others,”;

While I appreciate Twobagger's contribution to 10000 Islands, I object to my words being used in this manner. I politely request that this quote is removed.

[Jakker City]

[*]Received recognition for all of these actions by the leader of Commended nation and Chief Executive of 10000 Islands, Markanite, as “going above and beyond to look after others,”;

While I appreciate Twobagger's contribution to 10000 Islands, I object to my words being used in this manner. I politely request that this quote is removed.

I'm hoping to get around to do a few edits soon, so I'll keep that in mind.

As far as I know, it was a script that only TITO command had access to and there were multiple raids that it prevented.

Sounds like an imitation of one of Roavin's creations but potentially hard to know for certain.

I am not aware of communications between the two of them nor of others outside of TITO command being aware of it. Also, I believe that was a difference in raids stopped in 2019 than since so there does seem to be differences and a loss for defending.

[Jakker City]

This draft has been updated once more in the OP. I think I basically have everything set. Feel free to offer any last minute points of feedback.

[Kordesia]

hes just not cool enough imo

[Daytime to Night]

There is plenty of line by line commentary on the bit part contributions made by the candidate and motivations of the author above but this proposal ultimately comes down to one thing.

The commendation seeks to commend a mid-tier officer and Senator of one UCR for achievements that were largely not his own. It doesn't meet the high standards of the Security Council and should be rejected accordingly.

Twobagger made positive contributions to 10000 Islands and defending but so have hundreds of others.

[Sandaoguo]

I don't understand why anyone has bothered to argue the detail of this commendation. It is a blatantly bad faith and trollish commendation, and it speaks volumes about the sad state of GP and the Security Council. The dishonesty in portraying a turncoat raider to the public as an active and commendable defender is just gross.

Those regions voting in favor of this, who hadn't already long ago revealed themselves as perfectly willing to go all in on bad faith, should be ashamed of themselves. Either they foolishly allowed themselves to be tricked, or they are now revealing they've jumped onto the train too.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Was on the fence beforehand, but these last two posts are a great argument for a vote in favour tbh.

[Jakker City]

Twobagger made positive contributions to 10000 Islands and defending but so have hundreds of others.

I would say if that there are players who have made a similar level of impact that Twobagger has, then it would be great to see proposals written about them for others to learn about those contributions.

[Great Algerstonia]

hes just not cool enough imo

This

[Sandaoguo]

Was on the fence beforehand, but these last two posts are a great argument for a vote in favour tbh.

I'm sure you feel cool for saying so, but all you're doing is debasing yourself for a fleeting second of feeling the lulz.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: This is a re-attempt of trying to rub salt in the wound from back in January, no thanks.