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[DEFEATED] Commend Arconian Empire

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:32 pm

Bormiar wrote:Historically is the metric- I'm comparing it to other similar proposals. It only takes two people to do a detag, so if you want to make the (absolutely fine) argument that they've been dutifully and actively detagging for a long time despite the hinderances of their size, you don't want to say that they've "only" gone on 1000 OPs because they were successfully hindered by their size.

The size of the crew can range anywhere from 2 to 4 nations, depending on who is available. I don't necessarily believe their size is a hindrance. I think it allows them to operate under the radar. I also don't think 1000 successful deployments is a small accomplishment for a self-taught group, given that they do this without the formal training, support network, and in particular, the tools that defender nations in larger organizations have at their disposal. It's the apples and oranges thing again.

Bormiar wrote:Oh I agree, but I'm guessing the bulk of these missions are detags, and since those are objectively less important than liberations, it might be better to stress the greater importance of those liberations- for example by putting the liberations before the detag clause, though there are cleaner ways that include a bigger rewrite.

I don't believe that a detag is less important than a liberation to the natives of a raided region. In either case, you've still got an unwanted stranger(s) wielding power over, and doing damage to your home. From the native perspective, whatever restores the region to it's former state is what matters. I think such a change would be esoteric. Most nations with an understanding of R/D will either see the work as beneficial to the community, or they won't. To everyone else, it won't really make any difference where the clause appears.

Bormiar wrote:General notes:
- There appears to be a lot of white space. I'd remove the line breaks in between points in each list, and maybe tone it down on all the lists >_>.
- Sharing their accomplishments through their proxy nations isn't as nice as just saying their accomplishments, as those names mean nothing to most people.

Thanks, I'll try the bulleted stuff both ways. If it doesn't seem too dense, I'll remove the spaces.

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McMasterdonia
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Postby McMasterdonia » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:41 am

Nice draft proposal so far! Good luck!
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Benevolent Thomas
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Postby Benevolent Thomas » Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:33 pm

I'm torn. On one hand, I do find the long-term commitment to the cause to be quite commend-worthy. Nations and regions have burst into our universe and supernova out of existence having not accomplished as much as the Arconian Empire. On the other hand, there are nations who are still waiting to be commended who have been around longer and have done far more during their time here. I will be voting FOR this commendation in the hopes that others are inspired to do what they can, when they can, knowing that their efforts are appreciated. Arconian Empire's deeds are noble and we need more nations like them in this often cruel world.
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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:16 am

McMasterdonia wrote:Nice draft proposal so far! Good luck!

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment. It's pretty clear there will be some push-back in your sphere, but I maintain respect for the democratic means by which your decision will be made.

Benevolent Thomas wrote:I'm torn. On one hand, I do find the long-term commitment to the cause to be quite commend-worthy. Nations and regions have burst into our universe and supernova out of existence having not accomplished as much as the Arconian Empire. On the other hand, there are nations who are still waiting to be commended who have been around longer and have done far more during their time here. I will be voting FOR this commendation in the hopes that others are inspired to do what they can, when they can, knowing that their efforts are appreciated. Arconian Empire's deeds are noble and we need more nations like them in this often cruel world.

I appreciate your support, as I'm sure will Arconian Empire. I think we are on entirely the same page in terms of our hope that others may take inspiration from the passage of commendation of this nature. The target may not be the sort of mega-region superstar normally featured, but they most certainly display all of the positive attributes around which all commendations are built, and most importantly, they act.

I also share your hope that other deserving nations, due (and overdue) for acknowledgement, receive it; and, I am happy to put my energies into bringing some of those future commendations before the Council.

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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:39 pm

I have posted a third draft of this commendation. There has been moderate rewriting throughout, although the facts remain unchanged, and the overall structure is similar.

In arguing for this commendation, in this thread, I have realized that much of what I've been saying about the target should have been included in the text from the start. That has been corrected in this draft. I have given consideration to previous critiques, both from those for and against, and made some adjustments. In short, I've punched it up a bit. This has required some editorial changes to maintain the character count, and they are cited below the draft.

OOC: Bormiar: After giving it some thought, I've decided to maintain the section listing the individual proxy nations. In addition to it being a stylistic choice, there is also a narrative arc through this section that explains how and why the target transitioned from region-building and RP, to defending. It speaks to their pre-defender career, their positive motives, and gives context to their evolution in NS. I think that's important to preserve. The decision about spacing bullets will be made when it's submitted, but I took you up on your suggestion this draft, in the lower section.

If anyone else wishes to comment on this draft, I welcome your input. I don't think it will change much more, and hopefully can be submitted around mid-month.
Last edited by THX1138 on Sat Feb 08, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:36 pm

This has been submitted.

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Sargon Reman
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Postby Sargon Reman » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:57 pm

Good luck!
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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:52 pm

Sargon Reman wrote:Good luck!

Thank You, kind Sir.

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Mahrenbach
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Postby Mahrenbach » Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:52 am

The Mahrenbach Federation supports this proposal.
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Tinhampton
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Postby Tinhampton » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:02 am

At vote until minor update on Sunday 19th February. Kuri (for) and McM (against) appear to have started the stacking very early on this.

AS OF 1659 GMT ON WEDNESDAY: Approvals: 78 out of 71 needed Approvals: 78 (Aqun-Athlok, Chameleon, United England N Wales, Legolannd, New Nationale Einheit, Pantseria, Purimgell Hawkwiteri, Faronia, Baobab-Bumbaria, Of Altonianic Islands, Kaystein, Tinhampton, Marrabuk, Kuriko, Byrdonia, Xukong, The Pop Punk Union, The United Peoples of Caedis, Bietzopolis, Ivycactopia, The Newest of Virginia, Peoples Sane Holy Empire, Johanneslanden, EndoHills, Holleynaga, Corstian, Zombiedolphins, Sulavia, FireFox15, Riceia, Peacockastan, San Lumen, Arcisian, Awesomeland012345, Karteria, SFR Philippines, Smiley Bob, Denathor, Zhopgrad, Ibenta, Alpes a Septentrionali Imperium, Qudrath, Ambaroplemokinolklaatopia, Spartakoi, Dimik, Sereteia, New Jutlandia, MNIC, Onri, Mardatan, Shauntopia, Corrocium, Chin chin, Asian Lands, Groot, Quartia and Karafuto, Tannenzapfle, Anskerdank, United Calanworie, Umitistania, The Greater Low Countries, Foreignaid, Voryan, South Krimelski, The Tea Merchants, Superbunny, Demon Head, Tyelandia, Depeche Mode To Joy, Magnum Exitium, Keahnu, New Dexter, Harmonic Empire, Draganisia, TexJeeps, Bej, The German Nationalist Reich, The Tejas Regency)
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Dreadton
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Postby Dreadton » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:50 am

This proposal shows no actual contribution to the game. It is the equivalent of commending a person for answering issues.

I will have to vote against this proposal.

Should this proposal fail and be resubmitted, I would like to see some sort of contribution to the game and any references to defending removed.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:34 pm

Dreadton wrote:This proposal shows no actual contribution to the game. It is the equivalent of commending a person for answering issues.

I will have to vote against this proposal.

Should this proposal fail and be resubmitted, I would like to see some sort of contribution to the game and any references to defending removed.

I'm not sure in what world the laundry list of accomplishments represented in this resolution is "the equivalent of answering issues."

I am for this.
Last edited by Wallenburg on Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dreadton
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Postby Dreadton » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:41 pm

Wallenburg wrote:
Dreadton wrote:This proposal shows no actual contribution to the game. It is the equivalent of commending a person for answering issues.

I will have to vote against this proposal.

Should this proposal fail and be resubmitted, I would like to see some sort of contribution to the game and any references to defending removed.

I'm not sure in what world the laundry list of accomplishments represented in this resolution is "the equivalent of answering issues."

I am for this.


Everything in the commendation is just different defender actions. The same thing dozens of other players do everyday.
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Bairamcea
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Postby Bairamcea » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:19 pm

Why is this Commending needed? I see the need for Condemning Nations and Regions, but these Commending seem unnecessary and frankly a waste of the Security Council, and other Nation's times. We all work hard to see the betterment of our nations and our regions. What is so great about this Nation and its Proxies that it deserves such recognition?

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Asle Leopolka
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Postby Asle Leopolka » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:55 pm

Bairamcea wrote:Why is this Commending needed? I see the need for Condemning Nations and Regions, but these Commending seem unnecessary and frankly a waste of the Security Council, and other Nation's times. We all work hard to see the betterment of our nations and our regions. What is so great about this Nation and its Proxies that it deserves such recognition?

Or, to be more direct

Image
W̵̲͔͇͒̌̉̆̇͛̋ͅa̸̢̼̺̅̉̊͝l̶̟͈̳̗͒͜l̷̫͝ ̶̱̱̘͖̙̬͖̈́̏̕͘ō̴̼̭̥͔̮̟͒̒͒ͅn̴̖̦͎̯͕̈́̿͘͠ ̸̞̼͉͙́͐̏͝ẗ̴̮͕̰̫̖͉̩̍͆̂͛͝h̵̖̋̉̾̎͆e̸̞̩̳̲͙͎͑ ̴̩̈̽̈́͑S̵̯̮̟͈͎̭͠t̸͍̗̹̬͉̙̓͆̔̿r̸̡̤̺̱̹͈̦͑̈́̅ẹ̶̮͔̳̆͆̄̏̔e̴̢̺͚̠̟͕̋̄̂̓̽͘t̴̢̡̩͙̫̼̚,̸̩̖͌̈́͐̇ ̷̨͐͆P̵̳̦͗r̶̹̪̯͕̬̰̍̓͆o̷̠̱͙̠͔̗̫̽f̶̱͙͇̼̬̮̻̊͌̋į̸̯̩̖͇̍͋̓̾́̏̽ͅt̴͇̬͍̗̺̀̈́̈́͗͊ ̴̧̯̼̩͑̓̒͗i̷̪̲̜̮̼̲̎͑͊̂̕n̶͍̂ ̴͓̻̤̬͎̫̹̎͌̈́́̕͝t̸̺͚͍̕h̷͖͎̙͍̬̫̰̍̀̃̿̓e̷̛̩̔̑̌̾͊ ̵̤̖͎͔͖̂͘͝S̴̳͖̩̪͕̒͒̌͌͝h̷̝͇̱̝̻̓̓͂͑̒ȅ̶̛̞̱̮̏͐͜ḕ̷͙͉̄͜ť̸̫̩̟s̴̲̲̏̑̏̇͆͂͘͜

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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:17 pm

Bairamcea wrote:Why is this Commending needed? I see the need for Condemning Nations and Regions, but these Commending seem unnecessary and frankly a waste of the Security Council, and other Nation's times. We all work hard to see the betterment of our nations and our regions. What is so great about this Nation and its Proxies that it deserves such recognition?

The short answer is that in addition to working hard for the betterment of their nations and regions, they have also dedicated the last 6 years to looking out for thousands of nations and hundreds of regions that are not their own.

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:02 pm

Dreadton wrote:This proposal shows no actual contribution to the game. It is the equivalent of commending a person for answering issues.

I will have to vote against this proposal.

Should this proposal fail and be resubmitted, I would like to see some sort of contribution to the game and any references to defending removed.

So good to see that you've moved away at least from opposing commendations unless, as you put it in your own words, a background check is done. Progress is good albeit there is still a way for you to go. ;)
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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:49 am

I'm torn for the same reasons BT said he was, but I'm voting against. I feel like Arconian Empire hasn't done enough to earn a Commendation despite the longevity of their actions. Being consistently active isn't, by itself, a commendable quality. Plus, the description of how they defend sounds like they're an amateur at it.

I'm also getting the sense that support from defenders on this commendation comes from the idea that passing it could help with activity. I feel like that's a weak reason to pass something like this. There are far more deserving defenders that should have proposals written up for them whose passage would serve as a boon to activity. No need to commend a dedicated noob like this.

EDIT:
participation in the final operation by collaborating defender forces in the dissolution of notorious raider region The Black Riders, following the April Crisis of 2015

I'm also wary of this line. I was in TBR in 2015, and my nation, Ridersyl, lost the initial emergency pile-off for the delegacy against those forces in TBR. I watched the pile form on their chosen delegate with anxiety and eventually sadness as I realized there was no way in hell TBR was surviving. That's because there were dozens upon dozens of indie defenders and anti-raider roleplayers, banding together to form a mega-pile. Participation in the dissolution of TBR sounds like an achievement ~5 years after the fact, but just participating in it really wasn't anything notable. I participated in the raid that took down Nazi Europe. I won't brag about that because a gazillion others also participated. Same story with TBR's downfall.
Last edited by Yokiria on Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:03 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Dreadton
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Postby Dreadton » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:47 am

Praeceps wrote:So good to see that you've moved away at least from opposing commendations unless, as you put it in your own words, a background check is done. Progress is good albeit there is still a way for you to go. ;)


No, I still hold to that. But me saying that every proposal does nothing to improve the resolutions. With the amount of bullocks that is in this proposal and its corresponding TG campaign, I thought a more thought out feed back was warranted.
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Bairamcea
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Postby Bairamcea » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:06 pm

THX1138 wrote:
Bairamcea wrote:Why is this Commending needed? I see the need for Condemning Nations and Regions, but these Commending seem unnecessary and frankly a waste of the Security Council, and other Nation's times. We all work hard to see the betterment of our nations and our regions. What is so great about this Nation and its Proxies that it deserves such recognition?

The short answer is that in addition to working hard for the betterment of their nations and regions, they have also dedicated the last 6 years to looking out for thousands of nations and hundreds of regions that are not their own.



Okay but what exactly have they done? You keep saying the same things over and over in your arguments, but you offer NO evidence of how this nation has made NS a better place. In my opinion a regional celebration for this nation would do better. We just had commended our WA delegate for their years of service, but we didn't waste the time of the Security council and all the nations within the WA just to do so. I see this as highly inappropriate on your part, and a humiliation to the Arconian Empire.

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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:07 pm

Dreadton wrote:
Praeceps wrote:So good to see that you've moved away at least from opposing commendations unless, as you put it in your own words, a background check is done. Progress is good albeit there is still a way for you to go. ;)


No, I still hold to that. But me saying that every proposal does nothing to improve the resolutions. With the amount of bullocks that is in this proposal and its corresponding TG campaign, I thought a more thought out feed back was warranted.

Yeah, I didn't really think you changed. I just thought I'd point out that you were pretending to be willing to switch your votes if the proposal was modified. :roll:
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

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Bairamcea
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Postby Bairamcea » Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:22 pm

Asle Leopolka wrote:
Bairamcea wrote:Why is this Commending needed? I see the need for Condemning Nations and Regions, but these Commending seem unnecessary and frankly a waste of the Security Council, and other Nation's times. We all work hard to see the betterment of our nations and our regions. What is so great about this Nation and its Proxies that it deserves such recognition?

Or, to be more direct

Image


Exactly how I feel. Why is this necessary? What are the facts other than, "Arconian Empire good :clap: "

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Dreadton
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Founded: Dec 04, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Dreadton » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:21 pm

Praeceps wrote:
Dreadton wrote:
No, I still hold to that. But me saying that every proposal does nothing to improve the resolutions. With the amount of bullocks that is in this proposal and its corresponding TG campaign, I thought a more thought out feed back was warranted.

Yeah, I didn't really think you changed. I just thought I'd point out that you were pretending to be willing to switch your votes if the proposal was modified. :roll:


Please forgive me for trying to contribute in someway. I will get your permission next time.
Former Honorable Associate Justice of The North Pacific.

All post are representations of the policy and opinions of the nation of Dreadton and not official TNP policy.

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THX1138
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Postby THX1138 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:41 pm

Yokiria wrote:I'm torn for the same reasons BT said he was, but I'm voting against. I feel like Arconian Empire hasn't done enough to earn a Commendation despite the longevity of their actions. Being consistently active isn't, by itself, a commendable quality. Plus, the description of how they defend sounds like they're an amateur at it.

I'm also getting the sense that support from defenders on this commendation comes from the idea that passing it could help with activity. I feel like that's a weak reason to pass something like this. There are far more deserving defenders that should have proposals written up for them whose passage would serve as a boon to activity. No need to commend a dedicated noob like this.


OOC: This wasn't written to promote defender activity per se; it came from a different place. What got my attention about AE (a nation with whom I had no previous relationship) and inspired this resolution was their consistency, their hard work, their dedication over time, and the uniqueness of what they are doing as an independent. It really was about the qualities of the individual, first, and what side they're on, or where they're from, second.
I'm aware that Commendations tend toward more well-known nations, and most coming from the larger regions. Perhaps it takes more effort to rise and achieve things in a large region, but there are also way more opportunities for a nation in a larger region to receive training, to move laterally from dept to dept and climb the ranks, and to build their brand.
This is why I talked a lot about scale in these threads. Removing those enhanced geographic opportunities from the equation, and leveling the field a bit, commendations come down way more to personal attributes, as opposed to accomplishments. That's not to say that those nations that have accomplished great things shouldn't be commended, nor is it to say that Arconian Empire hasn't accomplished a great deal. I just maintain that, with a bit of perspective, both types of commendation should be able to coexist.
If nations out there take inspiration from good qualities and hard work, there's no harm in that whatsoever. That's not specific to the promotion of defender activity, that's with the hope that it might inspire nations to forge their own path.
Last edited by THX1138 on Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Praeceps
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Founded: Feb 08, 2016
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Postby Praeceps » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:53 pm

Dreadton wrote:
Praeceps wrote:Yeah, I didn't really think you changed. I just thought I'd point out that you were pretending to be willing to switch your votes if the proposal was modified. :roll:


Please forgive me for trying to contribute in someway. I will get your permission next time.

Might I suggest actually helping next time? The Security Council has a long history of determining that defending is commendable (and that raiding isn't ;) ). Recommending that references to such are removed without providing any rationale as to why this should be an exceptional case is not helping.

You are forgiven. You may request my permission in the future either by telegram or on Discord at Praetor#6889. Cheers! :hug:
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

Guildmaster of The North Pacific Cards Guild

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