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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:08 am
by Honeydewistania
American Pere Housh wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Yep, I do. Whether IC or OOC fascist, fascism is bad and even pretend fascism attracts real fascists. Which I'm guessing there are a few in CCD, which at least would make y'all fascist sympathizers for allowing them to stay in your region.

Just because some of our members are fascist doesn't mean all are fascist. I myself am not a fascist as both fascism and communism are banned in my nation. You know nothing about the APH and you don't know me. My nation is conservative not fascist so please know the difference.

Fascist sympathiser =/= fascist but both are bad

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:20 pm
by Kaboomlandia
Morover wrote:OOC:

Incredibly tentative support. While I honestly agree with the concept of the repeal (and even have advocated for it in the past), I don't think such a repeal should go through until they at least get their act together. It is conflicting, because it is seen as a badge of honor to some, but I know some find it incredibly irritating. Perhaps if they do get their shit together, they could even go for a condemnation.

One thing I would like to see here is concern over the dangers of offensive liberations, and a commentary on the dangerous precedent the target participates in (but that's just me).

I don't mind offensive liberations when they actually do something (Exhibit I: The NSIA invasion, which I was in on and wrote the repeal for the liberation), but I've added a clause ("Noting") pointing out how useless these libs against foundered regions have been.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:49 pm
by USS Monitor
I don't think repealing the liberation will make CCD any quieter. They'll just find something else to rattle on about.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:55 pm
by Refuge Isle
USS Monitor wrote:I don't think repealing the liberation will make CCD any quieter. They'll just find something else to rattle on about.

CCD attempts to commend their region for successfully resisting a liberation and thriving in a sea of adversity from the so-called tolerant left!

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:15 pm
by Kaboomlandia
USS Monitor wrote:I don't think repealing the liberation will make CCD any quieter. They'll just find something else to rattle on about.

I'm with you on that one - I don't expect them to shut up at all. However, their propaganda will have less of a veneer of legitimacy without being part of a liberation repeal, so it'll be much less believable.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:03 pm
by Lyrical International Brigade
Kaboomlandia wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:I don't think repealing the liberation will make CCD any quieter. They'll just find something else to rattle on about.

I'm with you on that one - I don't expect them to shut up at all. However, their propaganda will have less of a veneer of legitimacy without being part of a liberation repeal, so it'll be much less believable.


The SC: "We're repealing this because we want to, not because you told us to!"

That said, I don't know if I have an actual opinion on the merits.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 3:47 pm
by Bhang Bhang Duc
USS Monitor wrote:I don't think repealing the liberation will make CCD any quieter. They'll just find something else to rattle on about.

Agreed. We’ve already seen them do it. The author of their most recent repeal attempt (submitted but withdrawn) has also recently drafted a repeal of the first Black Hawk condemnation and a condemnation of the Civil Defense Siren.

Neither of these were serious attempts, never submitted; in my opinion they were just designed to be controversial, stir the pot and gain publicity for CCD that way.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:55 pm
by Wayneactia
Kaboomlandia wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:I don't think repealing the liberation will make CCD any quieter. They'll just find something else to rattle on about.

I'm with you on that one - I don't expect them to shut up at all. However, their propaganda will have less of a veneer of legitimacy without being part of a liberation repeal, so it'll be much less believable.

I will second that.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:57 pm
by Flanderlion
Seems pointless to repeal, the resolution is there and doing its job.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:00 am
by Wayneactia
Flanderlion wrote:Seems pointless to repeal, the resolution is there and doing its job.


What exactly is it achieving?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:52 am
by Kaboomlandia
Flanderlion wrote:Seems pointless to repeal, the resolution is there and doing its job.

It hasn’t worked as a warning because the region treats it as a giant joke, and it’s not functional as a military tool because the region is unraidable now and would be even without the founder.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:07 am
by Strobemark
As the founder of a region (Leasath) myself, I believe I have the right to give my opinion on this.

Of course they have an executive founder, the founder created the region and has obviously put a lot of work into it. Anyone else clearly wouldn't be as good for the region, and anyway they couldn't be removed by an invasion no matter how powerful. Yes, fascism is a disgraceful ideology, but there are regions promoting things still worse (like communism) and they aren't being condemned or liberated left and right, at least not as far as I can see. This security council goes too far with many of its condemnations/liberations, and this is one of them.

Not only have the CCD admins treated it like it's a big joke, the so-called "liberation" was and is still a big joke. As is the state of a Security Council that cannot actually act on its resolutions.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:05 am
by Marxist Germany
Flanderlion wrote:Seems pointless to repeal, the resolution is there and doing its job.

OOC: Good luck raiding this.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:14 am
by Flanderlion
Marxist Germany wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Seems pointless to repeal, the resolution is there and doing its job.

OOC: Good luck raiding this.

Offensive liberations are condemnations with teeth. It successfully irritated the target region, as evident by the series of repeal attempts, RMB posts and elsewhere. The added bonus is that it makes it easier to raid once the Founder CTEs (which will happen again, the region was semi destroyed by den, and atm the founder is away for a break). The primary purpose is to act as a condemnation though, and it's successfully worked.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:20 am
by -Destructor-
American Pere Housh wrote:The Confederation will always prevail in the end.

In the end, there will be only one region. And that region does not share power.

It's not the Confederation btw.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:43 am
by The Stalker
Against.

I don't see how the warning has failed. It's there so new nations can see it. If even just one out of a thousand potential recruits decides not to join the region because of it, then I consider that a success even if the current residences treat it as a "joke".

Never has a large Nazi and/or far right region ever not been a constant annoyance to the SC and NS in general.

Repealing this may stop the repeals, and instead will be replaced by others trying to condemn or re-liberate them.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:25 pm
by Wayneactia
Marxist Germany wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Seems pointless to repeal, the resolution is there and doing its job.

OOC: Good luck raiding this.


It is raidable. It would take eons, upon eons to hold it and destroy it though.

Flanderlion wrote:Offensive liberations are condemnations with teeth. It successfully irritated the target region, as evident by the series of repeal attempts, RMB posts and elsewhere. The added bonus is that it makes it easier to raid once the Founder CTEs (which will happen again, the region was semi destroyed by den, and atm the founder is away for a break). The primary purpose is to act as a condemnation though, and it's successfully worked.


No they aren't. They are an abuse of the liberation function, which completely devalues it. It did nothing to irritate them, it inspired them, and gave them recognition and a badge, which is exactly what they wanted. Anyone who believes that liberation was even remotely effective needs to read up on the nuances of military gameplay. Man I wish Skydip was still around. He would have repealed that shit a long time ago.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:35 pm
by Kaboomlandia
Flanderlion wrote:
Marxist Germany wrote:OOC: Good luck raiding this.

Offensive liberations are condemnations with teeth. It successfully irritated the target region, as evident by the series of repeal attempts, RMB posts and elsewhere. The added bonus is that it makes it easier to raid once the Founder CTEs (which will happen again, the region was semi destroyed by den, and atm the founder is away for a break). The primary purpose is to act as a condemnation though, and it's successfully worked.

Liberations being used solely as an annoying tactic is a bad precedent to set that really devalues their utility. The only reason it's not a bigger issue is because KR and NE don't care about their libs at all and don't come around here much. The liberation has done nothing but given CCD a legitimate-looking platform to stand on and spam their constant lies about how they have renounced the stuff that got them noticed in the first place.

Relying on a DEAT to get anything done is a terrible tactic based on nothing but hope. There was nothing to be gained by passing this resolution in the first place.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:37 am
by The Stalker
That's funny, seemed to work pretty well on getting Nazi Europe raided, and historically fascist/Nazis have often gotten themselves deleted.

Aggressive liberations have been a precedent for years now. :roll:

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:50 am
by Refuge Isle
Kaboomlandia wrote:The liberation has done nothing but given CCD a legitimate-looking platform to stand on and spam their constant lies about how they have renounced the stuff that got them noticed in the first place.

Being fascist/Nazi is also a reliable platform for attracting more fascists/Nazis. Knowing a liberation does little to them mechanically, if the question is "What should be done about CCD, A) Ignore them, or B) At least play the SC game to acknowledge that it's a brand of ideology we don't care for...

Well A just pretends obvious thing isn't obvious while it continues to fester and B is the status quo. There's no real reason to leave the status quo just to move back to "Well, maybe the fire in my house will get smaller if I leave and don't really think about it." I'd rather acknowledge the fire and, hey, maybe the house will end up burning down, but I can be an adult about it.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:55 pm
by Wayneactia
The Stalker wrote:That's funny, seemed to work pretty well on getting Nazi Europe raided, and historically fascist/Nazis have often gotten themselves deleted.

Aggressive liberations have been a precedent for years now. :roll:

Nazi Europe was never raided while under liberation. Evil Wolf obtained the password after the liberation was repealed.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:53 pm
by The Stalker
Wayneactia wrote:
The Stalker wrote:That's funny, seemed to work pretty well on getting Nazi Europe raided, and historically fascist/Nazis have often gotten themselves deleted.

Aggressive liberations have been a precedent for years now. :roll:

Nazi Europe was never raided while under liberation. Evil Wolf obtained the password after the liberation was repealed.


Oh yea, you're right, I did mis-remembered that. Still feel my other points stand though.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:53 pm
by Kaboomlandia
I almost submitted this repeal this weekend, but unfortunately Jocospor decided to try and overthrow TNP so there’s no chance of that happening now.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:00 pm
by Lord Dominator
Kaboomlandia wrote:I almost submitted this repeal this weekend, but unfortunately Jocospor decided to try and overthrow TNP so there’s no chance of that happening now.

Understandable

PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:28 pm
by Praeceps
Kaboomlandia wrote:I almost submitted this repeal this weekend, but unfortunately Jocospor decided to try and overthrow TNP so there’s no chance of that happening now.

Joco really wanted to keep the liberation.