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[MISS] repeal "liberate confederation corrupt dictators""

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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ShrewLlamaLand
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Posts: 777
Founded: Nov 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby ShrewLlamaLand » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:30 pm

Kaboomlandia wrote:
Comfed wrote:My point is that the only good reason to repeal this is to take away a badge from CCD. However, CCD doesn't appear to want the resolution so it's better to leave it there.
And yes, I did read the proposal.

It's not just that they want the proposal repealed. They want a repeal that's written by them or that meets with their approval. This proposal isn't giving CCD what they want.

Once again this just isn't true lmao. I stated exactly this above:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:More generally, again, we really have no preference as to whether our region's draft, or an unbiased version from a third party, ultimately reaches the voting floor and passes. My only objection is that this proposal is very clearly not unbiased.

I have an issue with three of the four bottom lines, which are either misleading or outright false, and I even directly outlined what and why these lines were false. You did not, or could not, defend the content of these lines, and instead irrelevantly stated you still thought the CCD is fascist as if that somehow makes a false statement true.
ShrewLlamaLand
Confederation of Corrupt Dictators | Commission to the World Assembly

"The flag once raised will never fall!"

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J o J
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Posts: 163
Founded: Dec 18, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby J o J » Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:40 am

Doesn't matter, no matter what you do; they win. If you repeal, they gloat about your failure to raid them. If you condemn, they wear it as a badge of honor and get to boast about how much you all despise them. If you leave the liberation in place and do not repeal, it will give them the means to continue their propaganda repeal proposals and also it extends the time that the liberation fails to achieve what it was intended to do. You all give them so much hate you have actually given them influence because of it. This is your own fault, you've nobody to blame but yourselves for this quagmire of Security Council nonsense.

It would seem your only option is to ignore them and cut your losses. Jocospor isn't CTEing anytime soon.
Last edited by J o J on Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
[i]- “If you give your people an inch, they'll take a mile; so just give them a nanometer instead so they'll take an inch."

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Kaboomlandia
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Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:20 am

Thanks to some last minute help from Tinhampton, this has hit the queue.

One way or another, this ends now (or rather in six days when the proposal reaches the voting floor, but that doesn’t sound as cool)
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
Author of GA #371 and SC #208, #214, #226, #227, #230, #232
Co-Author of SC #204
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

"Your legitimacy, Kaboom, has melted away in my eyes. I couldn't have believed that only a shadow of your once brilliant WA career remains."

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Jocospor
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Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:35 am

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:I have an issue with three of the four bottom lines, which are either misleading or outright false, and I even directly outlined what and why these lines were false. You did not, or could not, defend the content of these lines, and instead irrelevantly stated you still thought the CCD is fascist as if that somehow makes a false statement true.


100% agree here. Let me very clearly outline CCD's position for all to see:

  • CCD does not tolerate OOC fascism, or for that matter any heinous ideologies
  • CCD does want to lose its liberation
  • Despite their rather rude conduct, CCD has no issue with Kaboomlandia authoring a repeal resolution, and has previously thanked Kaboomlandia for doing so
  • CCD takes great issue with the fact that this current repeal resolution is riddled with inaccuracies
  • CCD is concerned that these inaccuracies, which have been previously raised in this thread, have been deliberately ignored by the author

Sedgistan wrote:A large proportion of the nations roleplaying in the International Incidents forum seem to be doing so as quasi-fascists, whether they're 13 year olds revelling in being the bad guys, or more accomplished experienced roleplayers with developed backstories, and it's inevitable that people draw inspiration from RL examples of that. I'm not commenting on CCD's situation, as I know nothing about it, but I would urge caution before making sweeping assumptions/assertions that a region tolerating people roleplaying as evil nations is a bad/dangerous thing.


This objectivity is duly appreciated, my thanks Sedgistan.

Kaboomlandia wrote:Your use of "heinous ideologies" is extremely forced and shows that you're trying to avoid explicitly condemning fascism outright. I'm writing this resolution because from yours and Shrew's behaviour in this thread, it doesn't seem that CCD is going all-out on the anti-fascism reforms[...]


And this just fucking pisses me off. If you truly, honest-to-God believe the above, you'd be at odds with several of your colleagues. Unbelievable.

Kaboomlandia, all I'm asking is that you simply redraft your resolution and remove the lies. Do that, and I'll be the first to support it. Surely that's reasonable, right? I appeal to your faculties as a scholar and a gentleplayer.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


The Shadow Cult is rising...

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Spode Humbled Minions
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Posts: 158
Founded: May 13, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Spode Humbled Minions » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:08 pm

J o J wrote:Doesn't matter, no matter what you do; they win. If you repeal, they gloat about your failure to raid them. If you condemn, they wear it as a badge of honor and get to boast about how much you all despise them. If you leave the liberation in place and do not repeal, it will give them the means to continue their propaganda repeal proposals and also it extends the time that the liberation fails to achieve what it was intended to do. You all give them so much hate you have actually given them influence because of it. This is your own fault, you've nobody to blame but yourselves for this quagmire of Security Council nonsense.

It would seem your only option is to ignore them and cut your losses. Jocospor isn't CTEing anytime soon.

From what I've seen, there are certainly people who would, to quote you, "gloat about your failure to raid them" and "boast about how much you all despise them".

However, I would argue that 'giving them so much hate' is not beneficial to either the Security Council, or the CCD, for that matter.
If you have outstanding stuff saying 'ya bros that place is really fascist', that place starts attracting more fascists. There's a strong sense on NS that 'any publicity is good publicity", but that is not the case. Attracting the 'type' who isn't concerned with a civil defense siren warning and a SC bounty? Well, it ain't good for a roleplay community (which the CCD is adamant about being), and certainly isn't what the original resolution was meant to do.

Getting the CCD into gross reactionary nonsense where they align with OOC fascists to fight the 'WA elite' might have worked for your ilk before, but I think all the parties involved know how that works out now.
LCNIA Director - Publisher of The Fifth Column - Small Time Milk Smuggler

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J o J
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Posts: 163
Founded: Dec 18, 2017
Father Knows Best State

Postby J o J » Wed Nov 18, 2020 1:14 pm

Spode Humbled Minions wrote:
J o J wrote:Doesn't matter, no matter what you do; they win. If you repeal, they gloat about your failure to raid them. If you condemn, they wear it as a badge of honor and get to boast about how much you all despise them. If you leave the liberation in place and do not repeal, it will give them the means to continue their propaganda repeal proposals and also it extends the time that the liberation fails to achieve what it was intended to do. You all give them so much hate you have actually given them influence because of it. This is your own fault, you've nobody to blame but yourselves for this quagmire of Security Council nonsense.

It would seem your only option is to ignore them and cut your losses. Jocospor isn't CTEing anytime soon.

From what I've seen, there are certainly people who would, to quote you, "gloat about your failure to raid them" and "boast about how much you all despise them".

However, I would argue that 'giving them so much hate' is not beneficial to either the Security Council, or the CCD, for that matter.
If you have outstanding stuff saying 'ya bros that place is really fascist', that place starts attracting more fascists. There's a strong sense on NS that 'any publicity is good publicity", but that is not the case. Attracting the 'type' who isn't concerned with a civil defense siren warning and a SC bounty? Well, it ain't good for a roleplay community (which the CCD is adamant about being), and certainly isn't what the original resolution was meant to do.

Getting the CCD into gross reactionary nonsense where they align with OOC fascists to fight the 'WA elite' might have worked for your ilk before, but I think all the parties involved know how that works out now.


Indeed there are.

I think you have some valid points there, however, the fact of whether or not the CCD is IC or OOC fascist means nothing in the grand scheme of things considering the very nature of the CCD, because either way what I said still essentially stands since whatever you attempt to do utilizing the SC will one way or another be played in their hands somehow. For instance, if they wanted to they could take a condemnation and use that in their roleplaying environment, you know they'd find a way. Perhaps along the line of "OUR GLORIOUS CONFEDERATION IS SO FEARED THE WA ELITE HAD TO CONDEMN US, MUAHAHHA", or some rhetoric like that. You guys prefer to use the condemnation mechanic to nay-say "good guys that pretend to be bad guys" anyways, and you don't like to acknowledge fascists or otherwise nations/regions you dislike with them because you know that rightfully so we'd wear them as badges of honor, so a condemnation probably won't even come to fruition. Liberations are gameplay sided so for the question of roleplay it's indifferent, except for the reasons behind why the liberation was imposed, which in this case or sort of like a mini-condemnation. The roleplay community they are so adamant about being is not necessarily of the same breed as most others on NationStates, I'm sure you can agree with that. Those things being said, I don't think that any power vested to the SC that is exercised on the CCD will damage their roleplay community besides a few dozen nations at most, considering that most who aren't OOC fascist or otherwise right leaning would shy away from the CCD because of that civil defense siren mumbo jumbo as well as the liberation on the region as it stands. I would bet that a majority of the currently residing nations would not be heavily bothered by it.

(TL;DR: Yeah, that's the case for a NORMAL region, but this is the CCD we're talking about here... I don't think the nations there are gonna care whether it's IC or OOC fascism except a few dozen at most. )

On that last bit, I personally was indifferent to their cooperation with myself or any of my collaborators. That's a complicated topic but in a nutshell what I expected came to pass, and they decided they were too big for their britches, thinking their size would turn us into lackeys to do their bidding, and tried to test our tolerance of bullshittery (which, in their case, was 0). The "WA Elite" crap is nonsense as well, which they cooked up after that Interregional Axis uselessness, I personally don't give a hoot about the WA or SC apart from gameplay aspects.
[i]- “If you give your people an inch, they'll take a mile; so just give them a nanometer instead so they'll take an inch."

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Spode Humbled Minions
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Founded: May 13, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Spode Humbled Minions » Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:16 pm

J o J wrote:snip

The original resolution has no real gameplay impact, which turns the screws somewhat on your ‘I only care about gameplay impact” argument.
There is a clear win here for both the CCD and the SC. The SC removes its recognition (meager as it may be), and the CCD attracts less bad people.
LCNIA Director - Publisher of The Fifth Column - Small Time Milk Smuggler

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Comfed
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Posts: 881
Founded: Apr 09, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Comfed » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:54 pm

Status: Lacking Support (requires 3 more approvals)

Voting Ends: now

Looks like the author will have to try again.
Mall:
Best part about being a mod was engaging in normal player behavior and getting accused of abuse
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Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

Numero Capitan wrote:I haven't bothered reading back but I can unequivocally say that I agree with everything HEM has said and Unibot is wrong

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Kaboomlandia
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Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:04 pm

I'm gonna shelf this, and here's why. This is to make sure that the true story is out there with no obscurity.

After reaching quorum, CCD ran a deapproval campaign telegram. Regardless of anything they might try and say, this campaign did not knock the proposal out of queue at any point, and was countered pretty easily by my own telegrams (which were legal, they were different telegrams with differing content). This is just to get ahead of any CCD "our deapproval campaign has spoken! Delegates don't want this!" they might try and shout. With the numbers, I don't think CCD's deapproval telegram ever got it below 65 approvals, and at its highest it was like 70 something approvals.

However, TNP ran an approval raid at minor and knocked this proposal down to 60 approvals. While you can debate the ethics of approval raiding all you want, the fact is that I'm one person with a telegram API, and TNP has the resources to just do this over and over with little effort for four days even if I could get it back to 63 in the remaining six hours, and I don't wish to send delegates any more telegrams over this than I already have. It's unfortunate that we won't get to see the voice of the greater WA, but it is what it is. If you're reading this CCD, the TNP people have indicated that they will use the same tactic on your proposal, which is objectively worse than this one. Just thought I'd give you the heads-up to save time that you should probably not submit it.

TL;DR: Proposal was at quorum. TNP knocked it out of queue, and I don't particularly feel like spending time fighting a GCR today.
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
Author of GA #371 and SC #208, #214, #226, #227, #230, #232
Co-Author of SC #204
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

"Your legitimacy, Kaboom, has melted away in my eyes. I couldn't have believed that only a shadow of your once brilliant WA career remains."

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ShrewLlamaLand
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Posts: 777
Founded: Nov 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby ShrewLlamaLand » Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:31 pm

I'll just say you're wrong about our counter-campaign, it resulted in very roughly 20 approvals being removed, with the proposal barely scraping though at exactly quorum - 63 approvals - before the minor update. This was down from a high of about 70, with ~15 new approvals since that peak from your own campaign telegrams. TNP only managed to knock that down to 59 immediately after minor (wow toppling 4 delegates, what a raid!).

I'm happy to see it fail regardless, although admittedly I don't support the mechanic of quorum raiding and I'm not really pleased with how it happened. Of course, if you'd removed those misleading four lines we would never have sent out a counter-campaign, and it wouldn't have even been close.

edit: For transparency, approval count at 16:59 GMT+0, and our campaign telegram.
Image
Delegates of the World Assembly,

I ask you today to consider removing your approval of Repeal: “Liberate Confederation Of Corrupt Dictators” by Kaboomlandia, https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1605330049.

Repealing “Liberate Confederation Of Corrupt Dictators” has ultimately been a long-term goal for CCD, and is something that that I personally very strongly support. Unfortunately, this particular proposal is misleading and contains several false statements, which is very poor form for a resolution that claims its goal is to prevent the submission of another proposal containing just that.

  • Pointing out that the goal of SC #263 to provide a "warning" to the target region has largely failed, as the region's leadership mostly treats the resolution as a badge of honour for their doings,

This is objectively false, the original resolution paints CCD in a very negative light and falsely claims the region is fascist. Regional leadership has been attempting to have it repealed for a long time, including a current proposal in drafting by regional founder Jocospor on the forums.

  • Annoyed that no less than six separate attempts have been made by residents of the target region themselves to repeal the liberation, which all are extremely misleading to paint themselves in a better light,

One significant attempt has been made in the past by the CCD, which was submitted as an April fool's gag. The other "five" attempts were made by nations who no longer reside within the CCD, were not approved by regional leadership, and ultimately were never seriously submitted to the Security Council.

  • Wishing to take away the target region's ability to utilize their false statements through repeal attempts of this proposal by passing one that doesn't give them the attention or ability to use false arguments to sway voters to their side,

Given the above, their mention of "false statements" is an amusing example of hypocrisy.

Perhaps just as disappointing is this section from their nation's campaign telegram, from which you probably approved the proposal, which repeats these false claims and attempts to justify this poor form by citing "past experience".
  • What’s more, the CCD’s founder has tried to milk this Liberation for publicity by repeatedly drafting self-serving repeals that misrepresent the beliefs of their region. This is a no-frills repeal that gets right to the point: this Liberation didn’t work, so it’s time to pass an unbiased and factual repeal that stops the CCD leadership from passing their own repeal that twists the facts. I have six passed Security Council resolutions to my name, so my experience in this department speaks for itself.

Once again, the CCD does want to see the target resolution repealed, and is more than happy to support an "unbiased and factual repeal" attempt. Regional founder Jocospor had actually supported an earlier version of this draft on the forum drafting thread, but the current version was modified without feedback before submitting, and now does not meet those criteria.

Once again, I'd ask you to consider removing your approval here:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1605330049

Thanks,
shrewllamaland
Last edited by ShrewLlamaLand on Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ShrewLlamaLand
Confederation of Corrupt Dictators | Commission to the World Assembly

"The flag once raised will never fall!"

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Kaboomlandia
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Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:52 pm

I'm guessing you ran multiple campaign TGs against this proposal, because you curiously left out this one that was sent out today:

Image

Anyway, my work here is done. Have fun with your repeal!
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
Author of GA #371 and SC #208, #214, #226, #227, #230, #232
Co-Author of SC #204
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

"Your legitimacy, Kaboom, has melted away in my eyes. I couldn't have believed that only a shadow of your once brilliant WA career remains."

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ShrewLlamaLand
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Posts: 777
Founded: Nov 30, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby ShrewLlamaLand » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:59 am

Kaboomlandia wrote:I'm guessing you ran multiple campaign TGs against this proposal, because you curiously left out this one that was sent out today:

Yes, the one I quoted was our main counter-campaign telegram which I sent out shortly after the proposal reached quorum. The telegram in your screenshot was in response to your own counter-counter campaign telegram and sent only to specific delegates.

Kaboomlandia wrote:Anyway, my work here is done. Have fun with your repeal!

Cheers, we will!
ShrewLlamaLand
Confederation of Corrupt Dictators | Commission to the World Assembly

"The flag once raised will never fall!"

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Wayneactia
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Posts: 1705
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:50 pm

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:
Kaboomlandia wrote:I'm guessing you ran multiple campaign TGs against this proposal, because you curiously left out this one that was sent out today:

Yes, the one I quoted was our main counter-campaign telegram which I sent out shortly after the proposal reached quorum. The telegram in your screenshot was in response to your own counter-counter campaign telegram and sent only to specific delegates.

Keep the fucking liberation then. Someone had the decency to throw you a bone, and you chomped off their hand? It should be amusing to watch you guys throw money at a campaign to try and get your own repeal into queue. Guess what, it won't.

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Outer Sparta
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Posts: 11471
Founded: Dec 26, 2014
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Outer Sparta » Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:53 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Yes, the one I quoted was our main counter-campaign telegram which I sent out shortly after the proposal reached quorum. The telegram in your screenshot was in response to your own counter-counter campaign telegram and sent only to specific delegates.

Keep the fucking liberation then. Someone had the decency to throw you a bone, and you chomped off their hand? It should be amusing to watch you guys throw money at a campaign to try and get your own repeal into queue. Guess what, it won't.

It's all for the authorship badge. Matters more than a liberation badge apparently.
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Wayneactia
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Posts: 1705
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:16 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:Keep the fucking liberation then. Someone had the decency to throw you a bone, and you chomped off their hand? It should be amusing to watch you guys throw money at a campaign to try and get your own repeal into queue. Guess what, it won't.

It's all for the authorship badge. Matters more than a liberation badge apparently.

Then they can throw all the money in the world they want at it. It will never happen.

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