NationStates

Posted: **Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:08 pm**

The Security Council,

Acclaiming Crushing Our Enemies’ years of regional and cultural leadership within NationStates,

Affirming that while this nation may crush its enemies, it cherishes its regional partners,

Recognizing this nation’s 10+ years of influence on The Black Hawks (TBH) which included their roles as Head of Military, Head of Foreign Affairs, and Military Advisor, as well as developing the rank and promotion system that TBH uses and has also since been adopted by many other regional militaries,

Complementing that Crushing Our Enemies played a vital role in the foreign policy practices and regional responses of The Black Hawks' Council including the aftermath of the military weapon, Predator, being found to be against international law,

Noting Crushing Our Enemies’ induction into the Raiding Hall of Fame for their integrity and leadership,

Summarizing that when given the ability to conquer other regions, this practice can attract nations who selfishly commit acts which negatively impact regional partners, and Crushing Our Enemies helped to develop a culture of professionalism and responsibility to mitigate this within The Black Hawks,

Acknowledging that the nominee also controls General COE of The North Pacific; the largest region in NationStates,

Impressed with General COE’s years of dedication to the security of The North Pacific through their involvement in the region’s Security Council; both as a member and as the Vice-Delegate which oversees the council,

Declaring General COE as a leading author of legislative and constitutional reform proposals which has served to ensure that regional practices have remained updated over the years,

Appreciating their efforts of developing physical copies of the region’s constitution and delivering these documents to fellow nations,

Applauding General COE’s efforts in modernizing the operations and media production of the region’s Speakers Office through their role as Minister of Communications, as well as the regional newsletter, The Northern Light, as the first Executive Editor,

Further applauding their commitment to justice and democracy within the North Pacific through multiple terms as Attorney General and Justice of the Court,

Admiring that during times in which The North Pacific has faced zombie epidemics, General COE has been a leader in developing the regional strategic responses and organizing the distribution of cures to other nations,

Observing General COE as the creator of the Election Commission within The North Pacific and has designed many governmental awards, badges, mottos, and seals for the purposes of representation and as incentives to other nations within the region,

Applauding the musical contributions to NationStates that has come from Crushing Our Enemies including the songs, Moves Like Jakker and Grey Wardens Boogie,

Highlighting that the nominee’s musical productions have been submitted in several global song contests and they have won on several occasions,

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body,

Hereby commends Crushing Our Enemies.

Posted: **Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:10 pm**

Sure, why not. I'll bite.

Jakker City wrote:Acclaiming Crushing Our Enemies’ 14 years of regional and cultural accomplishments within NationStates,

I think this clause works against you, and I'd suggest removing it. I don't think it matters how long of a time period these accomplishments took place over. If anything, when I read this, I think "if they've been playing for 14 years, why isn't there more here?" Perhaps it's appropriate when talking about holding a specific office for a certain amount of time. For example, if you wanted to note that this nation had served on the Council of Hawks for however many years, that would be appropriate.

Jakker City wrote:Recognizing this nation’s years of influence on The Black Hawks (TBH) which includes their leadership roles within the region as well as developing the rank and promotion system that TBH uses and has also since been adopted by many other regional militaries,

If you used the abbreviation TBH more throughout this draft, I think it would be fine. However, since you've only used the abbreviation once, and since you didn't similarly abbreviate The North Pacific (TNP), I'd suggest spelling it out. Incidentally, I know you've considered it already, but I feel like I have to say it as a matter of principle:

I don't think it's appropriate to recognize contributions to the military side of The Black Hawks in a Commendation. It's an organization with a history of regional destruction, and I don't feel that empowering their military to burn regions more efficiently is particularly Commendable. If you want to recognize their region-building there, or their integration of new nations into their region, or whatever else they did which contributed to the non-military parts of this region, then I could respect your choice to include that into a Commendation.

I also think you should be more consistent on how you refer to the nations in question. In General, I think you'd be better served by referring to COE by using their full nation name each time. For example:

Jakker City wrote:Observing ~~this nation~~ General COE as the creator of the Election Commission within The North Pacific and the author of the mottos within the seals of various regional positions,

This is perhaps more important for your resolution than most, since there are a couple of nations you are recognizing, and you go back and forth between them in your resolution.

Further, I think the following is a little dangerous:

Jakker City wrote:Highlighting that the nominee’s musical productions have been submitted in several song contests and they have won on three separate occasions,

I think that music is something produced by people, not by nations. So, to me, this reads like you're attributing this achievement to the player, which would be a rules violation. Perhaps you could go with "the songs produced by the musicians of Crushing Our Enemies" or something similar?

Jakker City wrote:Concluding that the years of bettering the Organization of regional practices and revered musical contributions should be Endorsed by this body,

I like the idea, and you should keep it. However, I think the phrase I've underlined is a little awkward. It reads to me like they've bettered the organization of revered musical contributions, whatever that means. If you're married to the wording, I'd change it like this:

Jakker City wrote:Concluding that the years of revered musical contributions and ~~bettering~~ improving the Organization of regional practices should be Endorsed by this body,

You could almost certainly do better, though I'm tired and can't think of exactly how.

For the record, I wouldn't support this Commendation as written. I don't think the TBH military contributions really fit; however, if you take them out, I don't think there's enough left. Obviously you should take this with a grain of salt, though, since I don't think my endorsement would have much of an effect on how my esteemed delegate will vote on this resolution (should it make it to a vote).

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:27 am**

What about Peacezones? COE's original flippant comment was instrumental to that wacky theory.

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:34 am**

First off, let me say that I like COE and I think the respect is mutual.

That said, I'm not convinced the proposal as worded reaches the kind of level worthy of commendation.

As Twobagger has said, their primary contribution to this world for many years was raiding innocent regions. Whilst that doesn't automatically exclude anyone from commendation, it does set a higher bar for any positive contributions they have made.

With regard to the stated accomplishments in the Black Hawks, creating a rank system is not a unique or particularly noteworthy achievement, and provides no net benefit to the NS world, beyond inflating the egos of other raiders. I'm not sure what aspects of that particular rank system you think have been spread across other militaries, it seems like quite a basic structure using real world ranks?

In terms of the Predator reference, this is far too vague and doesn't identify anything COE contributed that was actually 'vital'. If anything it was simply crisis management, and at the time COE admitted he should have taken more steps to prevent its use by TBH members. Not cheating, and being part of a group effort to respond in the right way when you find out your allies were, are applaudable but I'm not convinced they are exactly internationally commendable.

Whilst I have always liked COE as a person, in all honestly for many of his most active years the Black Hawks weren't exactly respected amongst wider circles, and weren't the most sophisticated raiders. The person who drove change and made them more sophisticated is now DOS. I'm not convinced any commendation proposal should reference TBH, at least not for the reasons given so far.

The TNP contributions probably form a better skeleton for a proposal but need to flesh out why those contributions are commendable and not just a normal part of regional government. For example, the electoral commission section could talk about their contributions to improving and maintaining the integrity of democracy in one of the worlds largest regions (currently the largest). You could expand this to suggest it sets an example for all regions. I'm not sure authoring mottos in a single regions seals is an international commendable activity.

Remember, most voting nations won't know half these references and some of the references need fleshing out and phrasing in terms of their international significance. The musical contributions section needs to be improved to state something like 'COE has been an international leader in musical expression and their musical productions have achieved international significance through victories in multiple international song contests. Notable songs include Moves Like Jakker and the Grey Wardens Boogie'.

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:39 am**

Very glad to see this proposal put forward and I would be happy to support this - once it is fleshed out a little more.

Here are some ideas for expansion. Definitely just a brain dump at the moment:

1. The proposal should mention Crushing Our Enemies service to the Security Council of The North Pacific, the body responsible for our regional security, both as a member and as the Vice Delegate. COE's long standing service to TNP and the key role he has played in supporting new members of the Security Council has been vital to our continued security.
2. COE has also served as both Attorney General and Justice of The Court of The North Pacific on a number of occasions. Simply another example of COE's long standing service to our region. In these roles he has presented a fine example of a jurist.
3. COE is the most prolific author of legislative and constitutional reform proposals in modern TNP - countless proposals have been drafted and passed by COE, reforming our laws and constitution to keep them in line with modern community expectations and ahead of the curve with respect to in-game changes that have arisen.
4. The mention of COE's service as the first editor of TNL is good. I would mention here that he was also Minister of Communications at this time, a role he has served in a number of times, each time continuing to develop the production of media in TNP.
5. The mention of mottos and the seals touches on some of COE's contributions to TNP. I think on their own it is insignificant. Instead I think you could mention that COE has been an extensive designer of awards, badges, seals and other items utilised by the Government both to represent the actions of its officials, but also as awards and incentives to nations who contribute to the region.

Hope that helps!

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:00 am**

Raiders doing raider things is not commendable, it's condemnable. I'd be willing to support a commendation of COE if it were to focus on his contributions to TNP, but with the TBH stuff added in no dice.

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:43 pm**

I appreciate all of your thoughts about this. I have updated the proposal.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:52 am**

Kuriko wrote:Raiders doing raider things is not commendable, it's condemnable. I'd be willing to support a commendation of COE if it were to focus on his contributions to TNP, but with the TBH stuff added in no dice.

The Security Council disagrees with you

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:14 am**

Wayneactia wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Raiders doing raider things is not commendable, it's condemnable. I'd be willing to support a commendation of COE if it were to focus on his contributions to TNP, but with the TBH stuff added in no dice.

The Security Council disagrees with you

Evil Wolf was commended for his work against the NLO coup of Lazarus, not for raiding. If you actually read the proposal you would know that. And before someone brings up Severisen, I didn't fully agree with the raider content in that proposal either. Raiding and destroying other communities isn't commendable, it never will be and it never should be.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:44 am**

Kuriko wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:
The Security Council disagrees with you

Evil Wolf was commended for his work against the NLO coup of Lazarus, not for raiding. If you actually read the proposal you would know that. And before someone brings up Severisen, I didn't fully agree with the raider content in that proposal either. Raiding and destroying other communities isn't commendable, it never will be and it never should be.

I was about to say Sev didn’t have that much emphasis on raiding, but then I went back and it definitely cites a lot about working for raider regions, although never on actual raids.

To the author: COE’s TNP work I think makes up the crux of the proposal since he left TBH for TNP a long time ago and has devoted a great deal of time and effort to the region.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 am**

Minor grammatical correction:

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body,

“Organization” and “Endorsed” should not be capitalized.

Other than that this is a well presented and detailed draft. I’m not going to comment on the contents as others know COE’s achievements much better than me. I’m neutral on whether a raider nation should be Commended or not, but the work in TNP definitely stacks up.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:16 am**

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Minor grammatical correction:

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body,

“Organization” and “Endorsed” should not be capitalized.

I intentionally capitalized then as a play on the nominee's name. Maybe I'll change it if people get too upset by that

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:30 am**

Jakker City wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Minor grammatical correction:

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body,

“Organization” and “Endorsed” should not be capitalized.

I intentionally capitalized then as a play on the nominee's name. Maybe I'll change it if people get too upset by that

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body

Got me - didn’t see that one. :clap:

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:24 pm**

Jakker City wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Minor grammatical correction:

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body,

“Organization” and “Endorsed” should not be capitalized.

I intentionally capitalized then as a play on the nominee's name. Maybe I'll change it if people get too upset by that

Concluding that this nominee has devoted years to maximize the Organization of regional practices for the benefit of their partner nations and should be Endorsed by this body

I love it

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:35 pm**

Jakker City wrote:I intentionally capitalized then as a play on the nominee's name. Maybe I'll change it if people get too upset by that

I like the idea, and you should keep it. It's cute and clever.

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:46 am**

As a person Commended by the esteemed Security Council for may of the same things COE has accomplished throughout his long and distinguished career, I approve of this proposal.

Kuriko wrote:Evil Wolf was commended for his work against the NLO coup of Lazarus, not for raiding. If you actually read the proposal you would know that.

False. My commend was passed before the NLO even existed and not only is the NLO not mentioned even once within the Commend, nothing before 2015, the year of the NLO coup, is included in my Commend.

If you actually read the proposal you would know that. :^)

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:52 am**

Tim-Opolis wrote:RECOGNIZING Todd McCloud as a highly successful raider, leading raiding missions and coups in many prominent regions,

I don't know why you guys like precedent so much, but in that example an off-hand note of somebody's success as a raider was fine in a commendation.

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:08 pm**

If people who have done wrong IC receive commendations, and we don't give OOC wrongdoing condemnations, what purpose are condemnations for?

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:10 pm**

ok cool, very nice

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:03 pm**

Praetor, do you expect us to condemn every wrongdoing? Based on the proposal, it seems clear that COE’s region-building contributions are clearly commendable. Should the author choose to fully recognize their affect on NS, what’s wrong with that? Of anything, it certainly doesn’t contradict the “purpose” of a condemnation.

Frankly, I would support a resolution type which just recognized influential nations, because it’s ridiculous to paint players’ histories as black and white; condemnable and commendable. While commendations are inherently partial, ones like this one portray a controversial and more interesting nation, and also do a better job of teaching players of the nation’s history. I for one know that commendations and condemnations have always been the easiest way for me to learn about a nation or region.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:34 am**

Bormiar wrote:Praetor, do you expect us to condemn every wrongdoing? Based on the proposal, it seems clear that COE’s region-building contributions are clearly commendable. Should the author choose to fully recognize their affect on NS, what’s wrong with that? Of anything, it certainly doesn’t contradict the “purpose” of a condemnation.

Frankly, I would support a resolution type which just recognized influential nations, because it’s ridiculous to paint players’ histories as black and white; condemnable and commendable. While commendations are inherently partial, ones like this one portray a controversial and more interesting nation, and also do a better job of teaching players of the nation’s history. I for one know that commendations and condemnations have always been the easiest way for me to learn about a nation or region.

Even if the person has done more condemnable actions than commendable ones?

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:55 am**

Marxist Germany wrote:Even if the person has done more condemnable actions than commendable ones?

Well it can be rather hard and extremely subjective to tell whether somebody’s done more condemnable actions than commendable ones, and it shouldn’t make you feel good to paint an incomplete picture or cherry-pick certain actions.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:24 am**

Evil Wolf wrote:As a person Commended by the esteemed Security Council for may of the same things COE has accomplished throughout his long and distinguished career, I approve of this proposal.

Kuriko wrote:Evil Wolf was commended for his work against the NLO coup of Lazarus, not for raiding. If you actually read the proposal you would know that.

False. My commend was passed before the NLO even existed and not only is the NLO not mentioned even once within the Commend, nothing before 2015, the year of the NLO coup, is included in my Commend.

If you actually read the proposal you would know that. :^)

Work done in Lazarus, same thing yada yada yada. The point is is that raiding is not a commendable action. Destruction of other communities for "fun" would never be commendable in the real world, nor should it be commendable here. Leading a region that has destroyed however many communities TBH has, or driven however many people from this game because of their raids, is condemnable and should never be considered a commendable act. Period. I know one has been passed lately (Severisen) and a one in the past (Todd) that I can remember, and it needs to stop there.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:20 am**

Kuriko wrote:Destruction of other communities for "fun" would never be commendable in the real world

Fortunately, this isn't the real world, so that argument falls flat on it's face.

Leading a region that has destroyed however many communities TBH has, or driven however many people from this game because of their raids, is condemnable and should never be considered a commendable act.

Well then, if you believe it's so condemnable, go write up a condemnation. I don't think anyone is fundamentally opposed to that.

As for the proposal itself, I'm fully supportive of it. I especially love the capitalisation spelling out COE.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:09 am**

A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Destruction of other communities for "fun" would never be commendable in the real world

Fortunately, this isn't the real world, so that argument falls flat on it's face.
Leading a region that has destroyed however many communities TBH has, or driven however many people from this game because of their raids, is condemnable and should never be considered a commendable act.

Well then, if you believe it's so condemnable, go write up a condemnation. I don't think anyone is fundamentally opposed to that.

As for the proposal itself, I'm fully supportive of it. I especially love the capitalisation spelling out COE.

Weird, raiders supporting commending raiders for raiding. Who could have seen that coming? You're right Pepper, this isn't the real world. But that also doesn't mean we should commend those that get a kick out of destroying regional communities for the fun of it.

NationStates

[DEFEATED] Commend Crushing Our Enemies

[DEFEATED] Commend Crushing Our Enemies