Condemn the Civil Defence Siren [Discarded]

[South Reinkalistan]

Oh wait, you're serious

Ah, yes. The infantile game of responding to a well-constructed post that clearly took a lot of time to make with a memey comment.

If you don't have anything worth saying, don't say it.

[Asurmenia]

Oh wait, you're serious

It is through my assumption and conviction that I have concluded, that my person must question you through a platform designed for discussing with people, in order to learn of the existence of people you would call as dear companions. However, it is a question I have not asked.

[South Reinkalistan]

Oh wait, you're serious

It is through my assumption and conviction that I have concluded, that my person must question you through a platform designed for discussing with people, in order to learn of the existence of people you would call as dear companions. However, it is a question I have not asked.

I think what Asurmenia means here is:

"Didn't ask."

[MineLegotia and Equestria]

Ah yes, the endless cycle to fight up against the Pacifician Dominated System despite knowing that we'll still fail.

Seriously guys, don't try. Do try, however, in other fields that the Pacifics haven't done in. Like I don't know, make the most unique lore, or the best offsite original website. Win them in quality, no need for quantity.

Because c'mon, have you seen their RMBs?

[South Reinkalistan]

Ah yes, the endless cycle to fight up against the Pacifician Dominated System despite knowing that we'll still fail.

Seriously guys, don't try. Do try, however, in other fields that the Pacifics haven't done in. Like I don't know, make the most unique lore, or the best offsite original website. Win them in quality, no need for quantity.

Because c'mon, have you seen their RMBs?

You make a good point.

But their vacuous minds sometimes need a refresher, anyhoo.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Ah yes, the endless cycle to fight up against the Pacifician Dominated System despite knowing that we'll still fail.

Seriously guys, don't try. Do try, however, in other fields that the Pacifics haven't done in. Like I don't know, make the most unique lore, or the best offsite original website. Win them in quality, no need for quantity.

Because c'mon, have you seen their RMBs?

You make a good point.

But their vacuous minds sometimes need a refresher, anyhoo.

Vacuous? Well you must know you’re losing the argument when you resort to generalised petty insults. You certainly have the art of making friends and influencing people pegged down. Nice one.

[South Reinkalistan]

You make a good point.

But their vacuous minds sometimes need a refresher, anyhoo.

Vacuous? Well you must know you’re losing the argument when you resort to generalised petty insults. You certainly have the art of making friends and influencing people pegged down. Nice one.

I mean, you never responded to NR's post that basically eradicated your argument, I'm just commenting on your failure to respond.

And yes, I am great at making friends, thank you for noticing

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Vacuous? Well you must know you’re losing the argument when you resort to generalised petty insults. You certainly have the art of making friends and influencing people pegged down. Nice one.

I mean, you never responded to NR's post that basically eradicated your argument, I'm just commenting on your failure to respond.

And yes, I am great at making friends, thank you for noticing

Oh, so my failure to respond means I have a vacuous mind? Better be careful with personal insults.

All I saw in NR’s post was a load of waffle, the actions of someone who has just realised they’d stuffed up their original argument with poor research.

[Novae Romae]

I mean, you never responded to NR's post that basically eradicated your argument, I'm just commenting on your failure to respond.

And yes, I am great at making friends, thank you for noticing

Oh, so my failure to respond means I have a vacuous mind? Better be careful with personal insults.

All I saw in NR’s post was a load of waffle, the actions of someone who has just realised they’d stuffed up their original argument with poor research.

So you insult my proposal by calling it a joke, insult me personally by implying I was a fascist, and now you've called my response, which took nearly half and hour to draft, waffle. It's hypocrisy to tell him to be careful with personal insults when you've already done it at least two times thus far. I say two instead of three because I am willing, unlike you have shown, to consider your reasoning for calling my response "waffle".

I am having a very troublesome time with that however. It's hard to consider calling someone's post "waffle" when it responded to each and every one of your points, in a cordial manner and in great detail. Nonetheless, my points stand.

I do implore you, however, to not insult people nearly thrice in a row in place of actually responding to an argument.

Edit: I saw you had edited your post to include that last bit so I edited the quote to reflect that.

[South Reinkalistan]

I mean, you never responded to NR's post that basically eradicated your argument, I'm just commenting on your failure to respond.

And yes, I am great at making friends, thank you for noticing

Oh, so my failure to respond means I have a vacuous mind? Better be careful with personal insults.

All I saw in NR’s post was a load of waffle, the actions of someone who has just realised they’d stuffed up their original argument with poor research.

Words hurt.

[Christian Confederation]

Keep up the good work.
I know how anoying it is to deal with Antifa and all that crapp.
Hell they probably have someone watching my every move for calling them out in the past.

[Blood Wine]

Oh wait, you're serious

Ah, yes. The infantile game of responding to a well-constructed post that clearly took a lot of time to make with a memey comment.

If you don't have anything worth saying, don't say it.

I strongly disagree, it's quite worth saying this entire thing is a joke that has no chance of passing and the fact that you're serious about it is even more hilarious

[South Reinkalistan]

Ah, yes. The infantile game of responding to a well-constructed post that clearly took a lot of time to make with a memey comment.

If you don't have anything worth saying, don't say it.

I strongly disagree, it's quite worth saying this entire thing is a joke that has no chance of passing and the fact that you're serious about it is even more hilarious

Aight, if it's a joke, why are you here?

Go and talk somewhere your flippancy is desired.

[Novae Romae]

Ah, yes. The infantile game of responding to a well-constructed post that clearly took a lot of time to make with a memey comment.

If you don't have anything worth saying, don't say it.

I strongly disagree, it's quite worth saying this entire thing is a joke that has no chance of passing and the fact that you're serious about it is even more hilarious

Then dont respond. The Security Council calls for serious proposals, this is a serious proposal. If you have a problem with it then dont respond to it or present your points against it reasonably. I'm more than willing to have a civilized debate over this proposal.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Nice to see NR and SR trying to suppress free speech. You two may not have noticed but there’s no thread ownership here, people are free to comment as they like provided they remain within the rules.

Of course if both of you are that thin-skinned then maybe the Security Council’s not the place for you.

[South Reinkalistan]

Nice to see NR and SR trying to suppress free speech.

Oh come on now, I may be rather impressive, but suppressing free speech is beyond even my near-limitless capabilities.

We aren't thin-skinned. Aux contraire, you lot might be for having a problem with us telling Blood Wine to, quite frankly, get stuffed.

[Novae Romae]

Nice to see NR and SR trying to suppress free speech. You two may not have noticed but there’s no thread ownership here, people are free to comment as they like provided they remain within the rules.

Of course if both of you are that thin-skinned then maybe the Security Council’s not the place for you.

Where did I order them to not respond? Besides, this is off topic, let us get back to the proposal at hand lest we face the wrath of the mods.

[Imperium of Josh]

Huzzah, another waste of time!

If you accept the premise and utility of the CDS, and if you do indeed condemn fascism as it should be condemned, then I really fail to see how somehow these factors have been outweighed by... the list not being updated fast enough when captures are made? That's a minor administrative problem, liable to happen on a game like this where we aren't all in some major coordinated network. Certainly not condemn-worthy, even if ideally the list should get a faster turnaround.

As for regions tagged as fascist that are unsuccessful... i.e. the small ones you're complaining about... representing and supporting fascism is still being a fascist, even if you're bad at doing it. They are therefore worthy of the label fascism, and a place on the CDS list, a list of fascist regions. Honestly what point are you even trying to make here? We should tolerate fascism up until the point when it's too large to combat effectively? Pretty terrible logic as far as I can tell.

The underlying illogic of the arguments presented in the draft therefore lead me to strongly suspect ulterior motives.

[Praeceps]

I strongly disagree, it's quite worth saying this entire thing is a joke that has no chance of passing and the fact that you're serious about it is even more hilarious

Then dont respond. The Security Council calls for serious proposals, this is a serious proposal. If you have a problem with it then dont respond to it or present your points against it reasonably. I'm more than willing to have a civilized debate over this proposal.

No, this proposal isn't serious. The chances of it failing to make quorum are high, and should it reach quorum it will be laughably stomped. This isn't a resolution which is going to start serious debates, getting regions to rally their allies and WAs to vote a certain way, or split a region with how to vote.

Furthermore, your unwillingness to take advice from SC regulars on improving the content of your proposal is not going to do you any additional favours.

[Novae Romae]

Then dont respond. The Security Council calls for serious proposals, this is a serious proposal. If you have a problem with it then dont respond to it or present your points against it reasonably. I'm more than willing to have a civilized debate over this proposal.

No, this proposal isn't serious. The chances of it failing to make quorum are high, and should it reach quorum it will be laughably stomped. This isn't a resolution which is going to start serious debates, getting regions to rally their allies and WAs to vote a certain way, or split a region with how to vote.

Furthermore, your unwillingness to take advice from SC regulars on improving the content of your proposal is not going to do you any additional favours.

If this was a joke proposal then I wouldn't have wrote it seriously. If the regulars gave advice instead of enforcing the status quo, not listening, and even insulting new members to the SC by calling their proposals jokes, then I would be inclined to listen to them. The only person who has given constructive advice is Kuriko, for which I have to thank her for.

[Novae Romae]

Huzzah, another waste of time!

If you accept the premise and utility of the CDS, and if you do indeed condemn fascism as it should be condemned, then I really fail to see how somehow these factors have been outweighed by... the list not being updated fast enough when captures are made? That's a minor administrative problem, liable to happen on a game like this where we aren't all in some major coordinated network. Certainly not condemn-worthy, even if ideally the list should get a faster turnaround.

As for regions tagged as fascist that are unsuccessful... i.e. the small ones you're complaining about... representing and supporting fascism is still being a fascist, even if you're bad at doing it. They are therefore worthy of the label fascism, and a place on the CDS list, a list of fascist regions. Honestly what point are you even trying to make here? We should tolerate fascism up until the point when it's too large to combat effectively? Pretty terrible logic as far as I can tell.

The underlying illogic of the arguments presented in the draft therefore lead me to strongly suspect ulterior motives.

You didnt read my closing paragraph. Converting is better than attacking. I hope you're not calling me a fascist

Edit: So...no. You have misinterpreted what i'm trying to say. I'm not trying to condemn the CDS for "Administrative problems" I am trying to push through this proposal because It is my belief that the CDS is unaccountable, unsuccessful, and harmful, especially due to the former unaccountably.

If these small regions are worthy of placement on the CDS then all 287 Fascist-tagged regions should be on there. Why the CDS chooses to keep the small, Antifa-Occupied regions on there I have no clue, especially since they don't release reasons on the list other than just declaring them fascist, which further highlights their unaccountability. Also, those regions were on there for weeks, if not longer, since the time I was first introduced to the CDS.

So, with the final statement, no, but nice strawman, because that's not what I said. I never said we should tolerate Fascism, I said we should discourse with Fascist as to show them their hate is misguided and convert them from the hateful ideology and into more rational beliefs. If converting a fascist is terrible logic then I guess everything is.

Regarding ulterior motives, no, I don't have any motives. Sorry to disappoint you, but I simply believe the CDS should be accountable to the NS community, not just the Pacifics, especially with such power. Condemning them will be a start.

[Praeceps]

No, this proposal isn't serious. The chances of it failing to make quorum are high, and should it reach quorum it will be laughably stomped. This isn't a resolution which is going to start serious debates, getting regions to rally their allies and WAs to vote a certain way, or split a region with how to vote.

Furthermore, your unwillingness to take advice from SC regulars on improving the content of your proposal is not going to do you any additional favours.

If this was a joke proposal then I wouldn't have wrote it seriously. If the regulars gave advice instead of enforcing the status quo, not listening, and even insulting new members to the SC by calling their proposals jokes, then I would be inclined to listen to them. The only person who has given constructive advice is Kuriko, for which I have to thank her for.

That's not true—you have been given other advice. Since you seem to have missed it, I will repeat it.

With regards to this clause:

"regions listed by the Civil Defence Siren are either self-proclaimed as anti-fascist, populated by 6 or less members, under the control of Antifa or Antifa-associated powers, or all three."

You are grouping together different categories which can't really be compared (under the control of Antifa or Antifa-associated powers are the only categories which are similar). You are nowhere near the character limit so you can afford to separate this clause out and be more specific (attribute number of regions to each category).

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Huzzah, another waste of time!

If you accept the premise and utility of the CDS, and if you do indeed condemn fascism as it should be condemned, then I really fail to see how somehow these factors have been outweighed by... the list not being updated fast enough when captures are made? That's a minor administrative problem, liable to happen on a game like this where we aren't all in some major coordinated network. Certainly not condemn-worthy, even if ideally the list should get a faster turnaround.

As for regions tagged as fascist that are unsuccessful... i.e. the small ones you're complaining about... representing and supporting fascism is still being a fascist, even if you're bad at doing it. They are therefore worthy of the label fascism, and a place on the CDS list, a list of fascist regions. Honestly what point are you even trying to make here? We should tolerate fascism up until the point when it's too large to combat effectively? Pretty terrible logic as far as I can tell.

The underlying illogic of the arguments presented in the draft therefore lead me to strongly suspect ulterior motives.

You didnt read my closing paragraph. Converting is better than attacking. I hope you're not calling me a fascist

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and it quacks....

As I said before your opening clause is in complete contradiction to the rest of your draft. If you were as anti-fascist as you purport to be then you would not be writing this proposal. All you’re trying to do is give support to these groups by attacking a tool designed to passively limit their growth.

So come on then submit it and let’s see how it goes.

[South Reinkalistan]

You didnt read my closing paragraph. Converting is better than attacking. I hope you're not calling me a fascist

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and it quacks....

As I said before your opening clause is in complete contradiction to the rest of your draft. If you were as anti-fascist as you purport to be then you would not be writing this proposal. All you’re trying to do is give support to these groups by attacking a tool designed to passively limit their growth.

So come on then submit it and let’s see how it goes.

Firstly, can we stop calling NR a fascist? As a rather good friend of his (and as such accustomed to his rather socially liberal views), it's rather irritating to me (and insulting to NR) that you're calling him a fascist. At least know the person before you call him fascist. Hitchens' razor, etc;

Trust me, there's a lot you don't know about NR, and you're making what are, to be justifiably blunt, stupid assumptions when it comes to this. So let's stop the 'fascist' name-calling, and actually get on with debate.

Also, I think NR's response covers how attacking the CDS is compatible with being anti-fascist. You just haven't bothered to read it.

I come from a region that is targeted by this system, and I loathe it. The idea that you call the people in my region fascist (when they aren't) when there is SO much evidence to the contrary absolutely baffles me. The fact you have the audacity to call these wonderful people fascist while knowing nothing about them fucking annoys me unreasonably. Honestly, this can be attributed to the same case as NR. You're making assumptions. Hitchens' razor applies here as well.

Nonetheless, I like the CDS. At least, the premise of it. For regions like Nazi Europa? Pfft, go mental. Those fuckers deserve it. But for some of the regions, I just strongly dislike the CDS and how it operates. Reminder that hate speech isn't allowed on the CCD RMB nor the discord, yet is still marked as 'fascist' by the CDS.

Get off your high horse.

[Novae Romae]

If this was a joke proposal then I wouldn't have wrote it seriously. If the regulars gave advice instead of enforcing the status quo, not listening, and even insulting new members to the SC by calling their proposals jokes, then I would be inclined to listen to them. The only person who has given constructive advice is Kuriko, for which I have to thank her for.

That's not true—you have been given other advice. Since you seem to have missed it, I will repeat it.

With regards to this clause:

"regions listed by the Civil Defence Siren are either self-proclaimed as anti-fascist, populated by 6 or less members, under the control of Antifa or Antifa-associated powers, or all three."

You are grouping together different categories which can't really be compared (under the control of Antifa or Antifa-associated powers are the only categories which are similar). You are nowhere near the character limit so you can afford to separate this clause out and be more specific (attribute number of regions to each category).

No, the other wasn't advice, it was a piece of evidence to support an argument. This, what you posted on the other hand, IS advice, so thank you for actually giving some. I will be sure to edit it at once and provide a second draft. I take this very serious so it should be posted by 9pm central US time.

You didnt read my closing paragraph. Converting is better than attacking. I hope you're not calling me a fascist

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and it quacks....

As I said before your opening clause is in complete contradiction to the rest of your draft. If you were as anti-fascist as you purport to be then you would not be writing this proposal. All you’re trying to do is give support to these groups by attacking a tool designed to passively limit their growth.

So come on then submit it and let’s see how it goes.

And a parrot can mimic people talking, doesn't make it a Human.

No, it's not. Just because I don't support the CDS doesn't mean I support Fascism. In fact, i've said this multiple times, but you've failed to read and understand it because you've made this false equivalent between the CDS and hating Fascism and vice versa. No, that's not how the world works, that's not how it's ever worked, and that's not how it will ever work. You have failed to understand my argument and point because you are so tunnel visioned into your own point of view that you feel it necessary to insult others for theirs, and even accuse them of being Fascist. So how about I prove, once and for all, that i'm not a Fascist, and put it right here in the open, unless you're going to ignore this one too because it's waffle and I haven't done my research into my own self.

If you look at my signature you'll see two links, one to my statement concerning GA #467 and the other to the NRI Constitution, the former is relevant to this topic. In case you didn't know, GA #467 was a resolution created to ensure that transgender people have adequate access to hormone therapy, and this, surprisingly, created some backlash. This backlash was, in my opinion, undeserved, as the resolution was well needed to provide Transgender persons with the treatment they need and deserve. Now tell me, would a Fascist, OOC, use their IC character to defend the Trans community? And would a Fascist IC do the same? The correct answer is no, of course not, because that's stupid, Fascists don't support the LGBT community, that's just a simple fact. Of course, you're going to say, as you have before, that this doesn't mean anything and i'm still fascist because I don't support the CDS etc. so let me provide a second example.

The definition of Fascism as defined by Merriam Webster is as follows: "often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition". This is not at all my political views. I don't support racism in any way, shape, or form, nor a centralized autocratic government IRL, in fact I have heavily drifted towards Libertarian during my stay on NS. I also don't support what essentially is command economy, or social hierarchies, ESPECIALLY based on race. Last but not least, I don't support suppressing my opposition. There's a quote from Voltaire that I live by everyday, where he said "I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It".

Of course, you're going to just dismiss this and call me a fascist, again, and again, etc. until you get your way and the SC goes back to the status quo. You're just going to ignore my points, like you've done before.

Oh, one final thing. I am serious about the first clause. I do believe that Fascism and Nazism are abhorrent ideologies that have caused the deaths of millions of innocent people, and should of course be treated with caution when approaching them. However, like you've done before, you ignored a point I was trying to make about converting, rather than bashing. See, a lot of people don't realize this, but you can actually convert many extremist, especially hate-related ones, by simply talking to them, and showing them that their hate is unfounded. An example of this is the famous Daryl Davis, who convinced 200 KKK members to leave and renounce their hate towards non-whites. He did this not by threatening them, not by harrassing them, none of those things, you know why? Because if he did it'd only strengthen the KKK's views, not limit them. Imagine, you hate black people, and now a black person is attacking you, would that not solidify your views that they're out to get you? Daryl knew this, and instead, decided on a different approach, of discourse. By sitting down, acting cordial, hell, even making friends with them, he showed them that their hate was unfounded. Through discourse, not by further hate, was how he was able to turn these KKK members away from their robes and into tolerance. And the same has been done with Fascist and Far-Right people, in the exact same way.

So instead of fighting hate with hate, fight it with, and this is cliche, but fight it with love, tolerance. Because remember, you don't save a burning building by giving it more flames, just like you don't fuel intolerance by forcing them into a corner where their beliefs are hardened and not softened.

You ignored this. Oh, and you ignored the first sentence of my proposal which you bring up in every dismissal of my argument:

Accepting that Nazism and Fascism are abhorrent ideologies that should be combated responsibly at every point.

Did you see the word? Let me say it: Responsibly. You failed to realize that I am saying the CDS is not responsibly fighting Fascism. Honestly though, you've failed to realize any of my arguments since you dismiss them constantly. Oh, and before you say that I dismiss your arguments, no, I don't, i've responded to them time and time again and never tried to invalidate them or insult them.