(DRAFT) Commend Grub

[Sargon Reman]

AWARE that the military contributions attributed to Grub are massive and include being a highly decorated defender in TITO for over 15 years and having completed 653 deployments; in this capacity they have been given the rank of Grand Knight Fleet Commander after serving as the Commander and Chief of TITO and has been decorated many times including with the 10000 Islands Medal of Honor,

I suppose it helps that he is and has been the only member of the Council of Nine. If any of this was coming from a remotely neutral party it may seem plausible. The fact that you are member of the government of 10K Islands makes this seem like a selfie on Grub's part.

Pass.

?! Grub isnt the only member of the Co9. That doesn't even appear on the proposal. A "neutral" party would find the same facts as are provided here. They came from his TITO record.

[WayNeacTia]

AWARE that the military contributions attributed to Grub are massive and include being a highly decorated defender in TITO for over 15 years and having completed 653 deployments; in this capacity they have been given the rank of Grand Knight Fleet Commander after serving as the Commander and Chief of TITO and has been decorated many times including with the 10000 Islands Medal of Honor,

I suppose it helps that he is and has been the only member of the Council of Nine. If any of this was coming from a remotely neutral party it may seem plausible. The fact that you are member of the government of 10K Islands makes this seem like a selfie on Grub's part.

Pass.

?! Grub isnt the only member of the Co9. That doesn't even appear on the proposal. A "neutral" party would find the same facts as are provided here. They came from his TITO record.

Sorry typo on my part. I meant to say he is and has been the only PERMANENT member of the Council of Nine. And as for TITO, 10K Islands has already been commended. Should that not be enough?

[Kuriko]

?! Grub isnt the only member of the Co9. That doesn't even appear on the proposal. A "neutral" party would find the same facts as are provided here. They came from his TITO record.

Sorry typo on my part. I meant to say he is and has been the only PERMANENT member of the Council of Nine. And as for TITO, 10K Islands has already been commended. Should that not be enough?

Grub hasn't been on the Co9 since he retired in early 2017. As for permanent members, it's not unheard of for CE appointed ministers to be members of the Council for years on end which basically qualifies as permanent membership.

[Mallorea and Riva]

COGNIZANT that Grub contributed to several refound operations, in which founderless regions were restored to peace and tranquility, including the refounding of USA, The Skeleton Army, Beyond the Sea, Norway, Deutschland, Australia, Animal House,

Is this true? How did Grub contribute to these refounds?

NOTING that Grub deployed in support of operations in Feeders and Sinkers alike in order to maintain lawful regional governments and protect them from coups, these operations include support of the region Osiris, Lazarus, The North Pacific and the Rejected Realms,

Unless Grub did more than move a WA nation this isn't particularly impressive or worth noting. If Grub had a distinct role in helping secure Balder (iirc the region TITO secured) before successfully forfeiting it to imperial interests I'd be happy to hear it

IMPRESSED that just 4 years into its existence, the nation of Grub was given a lifetime achievement award for dedication in defending by the international defender community for distinguished contribution in military deployments,

For what?

Just flagging these for the author again. Saw the snarky response to the third one already which was relatively non-responsive.

[Sargon Reman]

Is this true? How did Grub contribute to these refounds?


Unless Grub did more than move a WA nation this isn't particularly impressive or worth noting. If Grub had a distinct role in helping secure Balder (iirc the region TITO secured) before successfully forfeiting it to imperial interests I'd be happy to hear it


For what?

Just flagging these for the author again. Saw the snarky response to the third one already which was relatively non-responsive.

I will be addressing this with edits in the next couple of days due to RL.. What do you think about the Praising clause I mentioned earlier?

[Numero Capitan]

Agree that Grub's invididual contributions should be pulled out a bit more.

You've referred to Grub winning the lifetime achievement award in the Defender Awards but it might be more interesting to point out that Grub was the first ever (joint) winner of the Lifetime Achievement Award, the highest honor the defending community can bestow on a nation.

His operation count is impressive and not insignificant, Titanica used to fly around on liberations and that was one of my favourite sights to see as a new defender. But glad you are looking to draw out some more details, rather than just quoting numbers and medals. For example, Philippines, Rajahland and A Silly Place were some of the first that came to mind so I'm glad you've picked up on those.

He was also the first TITO member to reach 300, 400, 500 and 600 battle stars I think - I've also never known Grub to use switchers outside of seiges so hard not to be impressed with those numbers. Not sure what his role as founder has to do with that or how people are trying to undermine it?

You might want to check the TNP details, I think you mean Great Bight, not GBM

The point on diplomacy needs rewording given that those aren't actual alliances (largely because of 10KIs own preference not to work in that way) and a few of them were held together almost entirely by other nations, such as Anime Daisuki/FRA. Grub was the main military liaison for cooperation with ADN though, probably worth mentioning.

Probably not something to be added but worth noting that Grub was the main mentor of Neasmyrna and that friendship (and his example) was a big reason AWP rose to any success in the first place

Just because nations forced to leave 10000 Islands have proved to be impressive contributors elsewhere doesn't mean that management style is inherently wrong, we all manage membership differently (with varying success). Not sure any of us are in a position to criticise Grub's ability to manage a region with any authority given the prolonged success of 10KI compared to essentially any other UCR. The system in 10KI has built a base of impressive members entirely committed to it as a region and its values. Not every nation is going to be a good fit there though.

[Warzone Codger]

Since Woonsocket is Grub now any commend of Grub needs include all the achievements of woon to be complete.

When I read the commend of Grub I want to know all the things both players of Grub has done, not just the original player.

[Sargon Reman]

Since Woonsocket is Grub now any commend of Grub needs include all the achievements of woon to be complete.

When I read the commend of Grub I want to know all the things both players of Grub has done, not just the original player.

Woonsocket doesn't control Grub.

[Kuriko]

Since Woonsocket is Grub now any commend of Grub needs include all the achievements of woon to be complete.

When I read the commend of Grub I want to know all the things both players of Grub has done, not just the original player.

Woonsocket doesn't control Grub.

This is correct at this time. Woonsocket did once control Grub while he was Chief Executive between 2017 and earlier this year, but once he stepped down he passed it to his successor Markanite.

[Lord Dominator]

I do think Grub the nation being controlled by someone else isn't important to the Commend. We do have a standing situation of a similar nature with Kandy - and in this case there's extenuating factors involved in Grub the nation being the XKI founder.

[WayNeacTia]

Woonsocket doesn't control Grub.

This is correct at this time. Woonsocket did once control Grub while he was Chief Executive between 2017 and earlier this year, but once he stepped down he passed it to his successor Markanite.

Woonsocket is already commended, and Kuri is trying to commend Markanite in a different draft (which imo makes it very close to a selfie). So who are we actually commending then? Seems like Grub is a placeholder nation which is being passed around, which in itself is frowned upon. Vehemently opposed based on these grounds alone.

[Sargon Reman]

This is correct at this time. Woonsocket did once control Grub while he was Chief Executive between 2017 and earlier this year, but once he stepped down he passed it to his successor Markanite.

Woonsocket is already commended, and Kuri is trying to commend Markanite in a different draft (which imo makes it very close to a selfie). So who are we actually commending then? Seems like Grub is a placeholder nation which is being passed around, which in itself is frowned upon. Vehemently opposed based on these grounds alone.

I'm interested in seeing the response to Kurikos question about "selfie" in the Markanite drafting thread.

[Aenglaland]

Ohoho!

Opposed.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

If Grub had a distinct role in helping secure Balder (iirc the region TITO secured) before successfully forfeiting it to imperial interests I'd be happy to hear it

TITO was Osiris - it was the UDL that secured Balder.

I'd very much love to hear when Grub deployed to Osiris to "maintain lawful regional governments and protect them from coups".

[Cormactopia Prime]

If Grub had a distinct role in helping secure Balder (iirc the region TITO secured) before successfully forfeiting it to imperial interests I'd be happy to hear it

TITO was Osiris - it was the UDL that secured Balder.

I'd very much love to hear when Grub deployed to Osiris to "maintain lawful regional governments and protect them from coups".

TITO completely refused to help Osiris during The Dourian Embassy's/Gatesville's month long July 2013 coup, because I was the elected Pharaoh and because Osiris sometimes raided. I realize 10000 Islands and TITO have improved a bit, but that was what they were like when Grub was running things.

I am extremely opposed to this commendation, and especially with the above language, because that language is quite simply a lie.

[Mallorea and Riva]

If Grub had a distinct role in helping secure Balder (iirc the region TITO secured) before successfully forfeiting it to imperial interests I'd be happy to hear it

TITO was Osiris - it was the UDL that secured Balder.

I'd very much love to hear when Grub deployed to Osiris to "maintain lawful regional governments and protect them from coups".

Ah thanks for the clarification!

[Sargon Reman]

TITO was Osiris - it was the UDL that secured Balder.

I'd very much love to hear when Grub deployed to Osiris to "maintain lawful regional governments and protect them from coups".

TITO completely refused to help Osiris during The Dourian Embassy's/Gatesville's month long July 2013 coup, because I was the elected Pharaoh and because Osiris sometimes raided. I realize 10000 Islands and TITO have improved a bit, but that was what they were like when Grub was running things.

I am extremely opposed to this commendation, and especially with the above language, because that language is quite simply a lie.

Osiris has been removed from the relevant clause.

[Benevolent Thomas]

I wouldn't include TRR in the list of unbreakable diplomatic alliance. Grub did break that alliance. It was only repaired in 2014 when Tsim Sha Tsui and myself worked with Guy and others in TRR to mend the relationship. Grub allowed the rebuilding of relationships, but did not support the idea personally. I would cut out any awards given to him from Yggdrasil as well, given that it is AD's region and those two were as tight as Jack and I are.

Just because nations forced to leave 10000 Islands have proved to be impressive contributors elsewhere doesn't mean that management style is inherently wrong, we all manage membership differently (with varying success). Not sure any of us are in a position to criticise Grub's ability to manage a region with any authority given the prolonged success of 10KI compared to essentially any other UCR. The system in 10KI has built a base of impressive members entirely committed to it as a region and its values. Not every nation is going to be a good fit there though.

I'm going to have to agree with Numero. I hope nobody plans on voting against this proposal purely on my behalf. Grub is an autocrat and he wielded and iron fist at times, but you simply can't argue with the results of his work. Over a decade and a half of stable governance and one of the longest lasting gameplay communities in NS history. 10000 Islands and TITO do commend-worthy things on a daily basis whether it be domestically or globally relevant and Grub built that. Even those of us who have been cast out by his hand continue to serve the same cause he championed. Has he made mistakes, of course. Nobody is perfect and we shouldn't be demanding that a nation should be perfect in order to be Commended.

[Sargon Reman]

I wouldn't include TRR in the list of unbreakable diplomatic alliance. Grub did break that alliance. It was only repaired in 2014 when Tsim Sha Tsui and myself worked with Guy and others in TRR to mend the relationship. Grub allowed the rebuilding of relationships, but did not support the idea personally. I would cut out any awards given to him from Yggdrasil as well, given that it is AD's region and those two were as tight as Jack and I are.

Just because nations forced to leave 10000 Islands have proved to be impressive contributors elsewhere doesn't mean that management style is inherently wrong, we all manage membership differently (with varying success). Not sure any of us are in a position to criticise Grub's ability to manage a region with any authority given the prolonged success of 10KI compared to essentially any other UCR. The system in 10KI has built a base of impressive members entirely committed to it as a region and its values. Not every nation is going to be a good fit there though.

I'm going to have to agree with Numero. I hope nobody plans on voting against this proposal purely on my behalf. Grub is an autocrat and he wielded and iron fist at times, but you simply can't argue with the results of his work. Over a decade and a half of stable governance and one of the longest lasting gameplay communities in NS history. 10000 Islands and TITO do commend-worthy things on a daily basis whether it be domestically or globally relevant and Grub built that. Even those of us who have been cast out by his hand continue to serve the same cause he championed. Has he made mistakes, of course. Nobody is perfect and we shouldn't be demanding that a nation should be perfect in order to be Commended.

Thank you for your input. When regional duties and RL permit I will be doing a revision of the draft and I will keep these suggested changes in mind.

[WayNeacTia]

IGrub is an autocrat and he wielded and iron fist at times, but you simply can't argue with the results of his work.

That's all fine and dandy, but who the hell are we actually commending?

Woonsocket doesn't control Grub.

This is correct at this time. Woonsocket did once control Grub while he was Chief Executive between 2017 and earlier this year, but once he stepped down he passed it to his successor Markanite.

According to this, Grub is merely a placeholder nation that is being passed around. Wooksocket has already been commended, and Mark likely will be as well. So really what is the point to all of this, other than stroking 10KI's ego a bit more?

[Cormactopia Prime]

According to this, Grub is merely a placeholder nation that is being passed around. Wooksocket has already been commended, and Mark likely will be as well. So really what is the point to all of this, other than stroking 10KI's ego a bit more?

To be clear, I'm not even sure how I'm going to vote yet, though I'm encouraged by the removal of the inaccurate language related to Osiris.

But this argument just seems a bit disingenuous. Sure, the nation Grub has been passed to others now, but those others aren't actually the subject of this commendation -- the person who held that nation for years, the player we think of as Grub, is the subject of it. And I don't think we should decline to commend him based on the fact his nation is the Founder of 10000 Islands and has been passed on to others in his retirement. That was the responsible thing to do on his part, and is itself commendable. Believe me when I say there are far less responsible Founders, whose negligence can often lead to terrible outcomes for their regional communities. Thalassia's regional community went through that in our former home region, Pacifica.

We shouldn't penalize Grub, the player, because his nation has been responsibly passed on in retirement. He still did the things this proposal articulates. Whether those things are worthy of commendation, or if other things he's done detract from commendation, are valid considerations and personally I'm still considering them, but I don't see any reason his nation being passed on should have any bearing on whether he's commended. That's silly, full stop.

[Unibot III]

I have wavered back and forth on whether it would be appropriate for Grub to be commended and whether my own misgivings come from an unreasonable place or not. It's clear Grub founded, led, and organized a successful region and contributed to hundreds of missions to defend and liberate native communities. It's also true however that he approached leadership, not just with an authoritarian touch, but as an isolationist. He throttled back communication between 10KI and "the outside world," disparaged the FRA, the ADN, and later, the UDL, and continued to trot out exceptionalist fantasies that 10KI and only 10KI was a force for good -- spend too much time with the false prophets, so the premise goes, and their blasphemy will come to cloud your judgement.

I was, suffice to say, never a diplomat at heart nor a peach myself (with an obvious chip on my shoulder with the FRA) and I regret failing to foster more UDL-10KI cooperation, but I also can't recall my talks with Grub as having been particularly goodwill-laden either. He and his closest colleagues argued that it was better to not liberate regions with large pile contingencies because the piles 'trapped' resources and limited invasion activity (I argued that a two man team was all that was necessary for invaders to increase the number of active occupations); I was plainly upset when Grub published a statement accusing the UDL of being an invader organization -- while we, the so-called "invaders," conducted the very missions that Grub refused to authorize; 10KI under Grub's direction abandoned many small regions to large-scale occupations and the real possibility of region griefing. A tactic that I'd often have to resort to was to convince natives to approach 10KI directly and appeal to them (this cheap trick worked on a number of occasions where 10KI was unwilling to cooperate on a liberation until the natives themselves had directly approached 10KI.)

Overall, I'm left with not really having a final opinion on the matter. I won't deny his role in his region's success. But the man I encountered in 2011-2012 was a cynical isolationist who had lost most of his sense of urgency or perspective, bullying and blustering around committing to even the most basic requests for help and assistance.

[Marxist Germany]

IGrub is an autocrat and he wielded and iron fist at times, but you simply can't argue with the results of his work.

That's all fine and dandy, but who the hell are we actually commending?

This is correct at this time. Woonsocket did once control Grub while he was Chief Executive between 2017 and earlier this year, but once he stepped down he passed it to his successor Markanite.

According to this, Grub is merely a placeholder nation that is being passed around. Wooksocket has already been commended, and Mark likely will be as well. So really what is the point to all of this, other than stroking 10KI's ego a bit more?

OOC: Kandarin is still Commended, see SC#2

[WayNeacTia]

That's all fine and dandy, but who the hell are we actually commending?

According to this, Grub is merely a placeholder nation that is being passed around. Wooksocket has already been commended, and Mark likely will be as well. So really what is the point to all of this, other than stroking 10KI's ego a bit more?

OOC: Kandarin is still Commended, see SC#2

Kandarin's commendation would also be illegal now days.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: Kandarin is still Commended, see SC#2

Kandarin's commendation would also be illegal now days.

OOC: Point stands, Kandarin is no longer controlled by the old Kandarin.