[DEFEATED] Repeal "Commend Evil Wolf"

[Daytime to Night]

Weren’t you trying to repeal the condemnation for forum destruction of the ASE, forum destructions that did actually happen? Or should it only be forgotten when defenders do it?

Yes, because it targeted a region that wasn't home to the actual perpetrators, not because of any other reason. It is a condemnation that other people have also sought to repeal for a myriad of reasons - none of which are because they support forum destruction when defenders do it or think that it should be forgotten. Wipe the color off your glasses, because you've repeated this rubbish far too many times.

Are you really spinning the current NPA being started by Evil Wolf as a negative? I’d hope they’re paying close attention.

Not at all, but I am certain EW's choice of feeders was not a happy coincidence.

Yes. Did you read the commendation? Because if you did, you’d know it doesn’t commend Evil Wolf for a single event against a fascist region. Bormiar did not contradict himself there.

Did you read the post I quoted? Borm was talking about a hypothetical, that destroying a major region is significant enough to be worthy of a commend/condemn. MG even drew him out on that point, saying that in isolation that wouldn't be commendable/condemnable, and Bormiar doubled down on that opinion.

Selective reading. Get off your high horse, Numero - you can’t criticise others for putting in little effort when you yourself can’t be bothered to read the thread.

Eh?

You've not got any better at this thing little cub, keep trying.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Are you really spinning the current NPA being started by Evil Wolf as a negative? I’d hope they’re paying close attention.

Not at all, but I am certain EW's choice of feeders was not a happy coincidence.

The long grind of subverting defender efforts to subvert the feeders should have been included in the original commendation... damn.

[Bormiar]

Yes. Did you read the commendation? Because if you did, you’d know it doesn’t commend Evil Wolf for a single event against a fascist region. Bormiar did not contradict himself there.

Did you read the post I quoted? Borm was talking about a hypothetical, that destroying a major region is significant enough to be worthy of a commend/condemn. MG even drew him out on that point, saying that in isolation that wouldn't be commendable/condemnable, and Bormiar doubled down on that opinion.

It's still commendable in isolation, simply not enough. If MG said that the NE raid alone would not be enough to commend EW, we would agree there. That's simply not relevant here, because the NE raid isn't the only thing in the resolution, as opposed to the thanos snap, which was the only thing in the resolution. If Commend EW only mentioned the NE raid, I would be against. If Commend Riakou had had the thanos snap and all this other stuff EW has done, I would support it.

I think you should be somewhat embarrassed that you would put words in the mouth of someone else in order to construct an ad hominem that might superficially bolster the absolute worst argument that you could make against Commend EW.

Just shows how desperate you are.

---

So how do we find a discussion that might be worth being associated with?

There's no question that Evil Wolf is a raider who has done lots and lots of condemnable things, but there's also no reasonable argument that EW hasn't done commendable things, as is evident from the information in "Commend Evil Wolf". This proposal assumes that the condemnable actions can invalidate the badge given for the commendable actions, such as in the cited repeals of "Commend Sedgistan" and "Commend A Mean Old Man". The debate therefore can be fundamentally deconstructed into whether that assumption is fair.

This assumption actually illustrates worthiness for C&Cs as a spectrum between "condemnability" and "commendability", and those which fall furthest on one side of the spectrum are worthy of a C&C. This is an impractical model, as some balance out towards the center; e.g. AMOM, Sedge, Cormac (depending on why you voted against his C&Cs) and get nothing, despite being extremely talented players. This is clearly demonstrated in the repeals of the former two's commendations. The alternative if you accept this idea is that you simply forget one side of their actions, such as Westwind, Darkesia, Ivan Moldavi, etc. You would also have to believe that nations cannot be commended and condemned at the same time.

The other problem with this model is that it considers the spectrum to be a measure of good impact and evil impact, because the condemnable actions supposedly take away from the commendable ones, and the commendable actions supposedly make up for the condemnable ones. It is a struggle between both moral sides. You would have to be a moralist to apply this theory, as you would have to believe that raiding has an evil impact on NationStates. You would also have to accept that condemnations are not badges of honor, as skilled raiding cannot possibly be honorable to a moralist defender. That obviously only leads to making fascists feel good about themselves.

The better model in my opinion is that there are two spectrums in C&Cs:

• condemnable vs not condemnable
• commendable vs not commendable

This is far more practically useful, as it actually recognizes skill rather than goodness and evilness. Skilled players like AMOM and Sedge would actually be given proper recognition in this SC. Evil Wolf has clearly gotten enough to lean heavily commendable and lean heavily condemnable.

[McMasterdonia]

Where is your proof that 10000 Islanders were merely moving through TNP for no particular reason during Blue Wolf II's Delegacy (rather than using it as a launching point for recruitment adspam)?

Seems like the burden of proof would be on you to prove they were engaging in adspam, rather than the other way around.

But either way, MG said it's not going in the proposal. BT pretty clearly threw it out there as a joke. We may as well stop acting like the proposal is some ten year old XKI sniping at EW over something really stupid since this is certainly the smallest of potatoes of EW's evils and/or goods, regardless of which side you fall on, and MG probably had no idea about the incident when he started writing.

I am glad it is not going in the proposal, however just to clarify the situation: It was widely perceived by our community to be recruitment spam and adspam. 10ki was not the only region who did it, NationStates also did it, Greater German Reich did it, the list goes on. It was often employed as a way to recruit without spamming on the regional message board. As new nations will see "wow look at all these nations move to 10ki". Some Delegates don't care about regional happening spam to ban nations for it, I personally don't ban for it as a general rule, but BWII did. As has already been stated, Mikeswill in particular apologised and stopped doing it. Other regions continue to do it to this day.

Can someone point to me where moving through a feeder region, TNP in particular, is spam? A feeders on-page activity feed is cleared within minutes, and we leave no trace behind. Also, it's not against site rules. Is there a TNP law I don't know about?? Honest question, not trying to be stupid.

It was taken to Court in The North Pacific and the law sided with Blue Wolf II in his ejections. Repeatedly spamming the regional happenings with multiple nations from the same region was seen as recruitment spam and the Court agreed that BWII's actions were legally compliant.

[HumanSanity]

This assumption actually illustrates worthiness for C&Cs as a spectrum between "condemnability" and "commendability", and those which fall furthest on one side of the spectrum are worthy of a C&C. This is an impractical model, as some balance out towards the center; e.g. AMOM, Sedge, Cormac (depending on why you voted against his C&Cs) and get nothing, despite being extremely talented players. This is clearly demonstrated in the repeals of the former two's commendations. The alternative if you accept this idea is that you simply forget one side of their actions, such as Westwind, Darkesia, Ivan Moldavi, etc. You would also have to believe that nations cannot be commended and condemned at the same time.

The other problem with this model is that it considers the spectrum to be a measure of good impact and evil impact, because the condemnable actions supposedly take away from the commendable ones, and the commendable actions supposedly make up for the condemnable ones. It is a struggle between both moral sides. You would have to be a moralist to apply this theory, as you would have to believe that raiding has an evil impact on NationStates. You would also have to accept that condemnations are not badges of honor, as skilled raiding cannot possibly be honorable to a moralist defender. That obviously only leads to making fascists feel good about themselves.

The better model in my opinion is that there are two spectrums in C&Cs:

• condemnable vs not condemnable
• commendable vs not commendable

This is far more practically useful, as it actually recognizes skill rather than goodness and evilness. Skilled players like AMOM and Sedge would actually be given proper recognition in this SC. Evil Wolf has clearly gotten enough to lean heavily commendable and lean heavily condemnable.

I'm going to attempt to meet a philosophical rant with candor and present the alternate philosophical argument. I think your view has a lot more merit than the miscellaneous sniping above, although I don't agree with it.

The SC doesn't Commend skilled players. Skilled players are rewarded because they achieve their ends. A skilled defender puts together the coalition to liberate a region from occupation, coordinating with other defender and independent militaries and natives to achieve coordination and technical precision - the task is its own reward. A skilled raider does the same but in reverse - and that task is its own reward, accomplishing it is an objective won, that's the basis of gameplay. You could go on for many different ways of playing the game.

The SC serves as a referendum on the desirability and significance of those actions. It is a collective judgement about a nation or region. To Commend a nation is to say that - unambiguously - the Security Council believes they have contributed to interregional/national peace and goodwill and made the world a better place. To Condemn them is to say the opposite. Of course, since the Commend/Condemn itself is also a political act, the SC likely believes that Nazis are "evil" but would decide not to recognize them since, as a political act, that is not desirable.

Cormac, AMOM, insert a laundry list of examples, are all skilled players. However, they ended up with nothing - and that's OK. They had their rewards in their battles fought and won. The SC is not a referendum on player skill or game-play rather it is a referendum on desirability and significance.

In my opinion, Evil Wolf's bad actions (i.e. raiding) outweigh any conceivable good action and make me support this repeal. It doesn't make me support a Condemn and Commend because EW should not receive the adoration of the Security Council if their actions are not - well - adorable.

[Bormiar]

This assumption actually illustrates worthiness for C&Cs as a spectrum between "condemnability" and "commendability", and those which fall furthest on one side of the spectrum are worthy of a C&C. This is an impractical model, as some balance out towards the center; e.g. AMOM, Sedge, Cormac (depending on why you voted against his C&Cs) and get nothing, despite being extremely talented players. This is clearly demonstrated in the repeals of the former two's commendations. The alternative if you accept this idea is that you simply forget one side of their actions, such as Westwind, Darkesia, Ivan Moldavi, etc. You would also have to believe that nations cannot be commended and condemned at the same time.

The other problem with this model is that it considers the spectrum to be a measure of good impact and evil impact, because the condemnable actions supposedly take away from the commendable ones, and the commendable actions supposedly make up for the condemnable ones. It is a struggle between both moral sides. You would have to be a moralist to apply this theory, as you would have to believe that raiding has an evil impact on NationStates. You would also have to accept that condemnations are not badges of honor, as skilled raiding cannot possibly be honorable to a moralist defender. That obviously only leads to making fascists feel good about themselves.

The better model in my opinion is that there are two spectrums in C&Cs:

• condemnable vs not condemnable
• commendable vs not commendable

This is far more practically useful, as it actually recognizes skill rather than goodness and evilness. Skilled players like AMOM and Sedge would actually be given proper recognition in this SC. Evil Wolf has clearly gotten enough to lean heavily commendable and lean heavily condemnable.

I'm going to attempt to meet a philosophical rant with candor and present the alternate philosophical argument. I think your view has a lot more merit than the miscellaneous sniping above, although I don't agree with it.

The SC doesn't Commend skilled players. Skilled players are rewarded because they achieve their ends. A skilled defender puts together the coalition to liberate a region from occupation, coordinating with other defender and independent militaries and natives to achieve coordination and technical precision - the task is its own reward. A skilled raider does the same but in reverse - and that task is its own reward, accomplishing it is an objective won, that's the basis of gameplay. You could go on for many different ways of playing the game.

The SC serves as a referendum on the desirability and significance of those actions. It is a collective judgement about a nation or region. To Commend a nation is to say that - unambiguously - the Security Council believes they have contributed to interregional/national peace and goodwill and made the world a better place. To Condemn them is to say the opposite. Of course, since the Commend/Condemn itself is also a political act, the SC likely believes that Nazis are "evil" but would decide not to recognize them since, as a political act, that is not desirable.

Cormac, AMOM, insert a laundry list of examples, are all skilled players. However, they ended up with nothing - and that's OK. They had their rewards in their battles fought and won. The SC is not a referendum on player skill or game-play rather it is a referendum on desirability and significance.

In my opinion, Evil Wolf's bad actions (i.e. raiding) outweigh any conceivable good action and make me support this repeal. It doesn't make me support a Condemn and Commend because EW should not receive the adoration of the Security Council if their actions are not - well - adorable.

The idea that we should think in binary, "unambiguous" good vs bad terms is an over-confident, over-simplified worldview that is simply not going to work. Nobody is going to be unequivocally good or bad, especially when you factor in intent. Furthermore, many nations, as I listed, are morally ambiguous / neutral and have done a lot more for the game than many of those at the extremes, yet they are completely neglected in the purviews of the narrative this would impose upon the SC. Under this theory, any Council of Nine member would be more commendable than Sedgistan or Westwind (or maybe even Pope Hope), and any Council of Hawks member might be more condemnable than Onderkelkia. To send an example closer to home, Twobagger would certainly be commendable as virtually all of his significance has been pro defender. This idea favors only the extremes, but I can see why that would be attractive and beneficial to a 10KIer.

I notice you mentioned the binary mechanics of condemns and commends. Even if I can't make anything of Max Barry's flawed game, this is fundamentally wrong. We have the ability to commend and condemn, as well as weight a player's impact by stacking commends and condemns. My most wanted technical suggestion is the "commendemn", but unfortunately we are limited by the code.

I also notice you defended excluding skilled players because "they are rewarded naturally" and "the SC only cares about desirability and significance". I should've mentioned it, but I agree that "significance" is the paramount measure of worthiness. I would not, however, disregard skill, or hard work, or intelligence, or influence, or appeal, etc. Evil Wolf has been extremely significant to the "good" side of course. I disagree with the former statement that it doesn't matter that they weren't commended because "they had their rewards in their battles fought and won". I think that that affirms the SC's uselessness as an award and you'd have to cherrypick to say that there's a reason behind repealing this under that idea. People actually do care about receiving C&Cs-- likely because they are a unique international validation that you don't naturally win in battle. I would list some examples, but that seems pretty gossipy.

I don't know where you're going with this "adorable" thing . The reason I would suggest a well-made condemnation is because if you are truly confident of Evil Wolf's nature, the truth should reveal itself in the best way possible: showing both sides of EW and letting others come to a conclusion. If you think you're right, you should be able to make a comprehensive enough list of examples (which MG has already started on!) to convince others that you're right-- else you probably don't know what you're talking about. Evil Wolf has certainly done enough for both. And as a plus, it'll actually pass.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: EW could be deserving of a condemnation; however, I find that from an IC perspective, giving both C&Cs to a nation is contradictory, and as such, we have to repeal EW's commendation before passing a condemnation. Additionally, a condemnation of EW wouldn't be substantially different from the repeal of his commendation as both would be listing bad actions that outweigh his good minus the direct criticisms of the commendation in the former.

[Lord Dominator]

Giving both C&Cs is only contradictory if the actions in each are generally contradictory, such as one for defending and the other for raiding. The list of Condemnable actions of EW (primarily raiding, with a touch of muddled coup stuff in Lazarus) is so far completely different from your repeal, which focuses primarily on Lazarus - including still possessing factual inaccuracies - with little to no mention of raiding activity, or downplays other reasons he was Commended. Acting like the current repeal would duplicate a hypothetical Condemn is ludicrous.

[Captain Woodhouse]

forgive me if I don't put on my crampons to climb Salt Mountain to fight the Woodhouse Yeti that lives at the top.

Truly flattered, but I'm only ever Mary Poppins, come to dispense a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down.

Opposed... anybody who gets the password to possibly the most hated region in Gameplay at any point (as EW did in 2014) deserves to be Commended - no matter what.

"No matter what." You clearly think the last good deed mentioned in Evil Wolf's Commendation is the most exemplary.

The NE portion of the Commendation addresses the password German Dragons gave EW in 2013 that led to the destruction of abandoned NAZI EUROPE a year later. Some players who weren't around back then are unaware of the pw history and EW's former association with Nazi regions and their founders.

In the days before fraternizing with Nazis ended in a one-way ticket to Shunland, LWU maintained embassies with NAZI EUROPE and The Greater German Reich. GGR Nazis supported some LWU raids. German Dragons was still making decisions (many of them bad) for NE when EW approached him on the cusp of NE's Liberation with a bogus offer of endorsement support. GD was unaware EW had expressed public hostility toward Nazis. That he ignored proof illustrates how amicable EW's relationship with Nazis had been.

LWU and the NPA tried and failed to raid NE before the Liberation removed NE's pw. EW believed defenders had leaked raid info to GD even though he had no solid proof they were involved.

About nine months into NE's Liberation, Evil Wolf tipped off German Dragons and Leather-clad Germany to a TRR defender refound of the region, Jew.




Earlier in the month, EW accused UDL's Ravania of leaking NPA-LWU raid info to German Dragons.
viewtopic.php?p=17711654#p17711654

Other relevant, accusatory posts in the thread reveal that EW appeared to own the Salt Mountain Mall mentioned, excreting enough sodium to kill all the slugs in Bloedel Reserve.

Let it sink in a minute because you said no matter what. Do you really think a raider who rejects Nazis publicly and assists them privately to refound a region with “Jew” in the name to add to the trophy shelf is worthy of commending?

GD copied me on another TG exchange a few months later. EW was still properly brined over the leak. He'd shifted blame to Unibot.

if this is to be introduced you should remove the clause about Nazi Europe. While some residents were evacuated, it is simply untrue that Evil Wolf's efforts had no significant impact. FIrstly, it was a significant moral victory against the nazis and secondly it did allow us to refound the region on our own terms

All—not some—NE residents had relocated to Nazi Europa by February 2014. Three puppets were installed as placeholders. Placeholders aren't usually viewed as residents. UIAF boogied to an abandoned NAZI EUROPE the first week of June—over three months after the relocation.

No idea how destroying a dead region qualifies as even a moral victory. Had EW remembered that he still retained NE's password and organized a successful invasion before NE emptied (similar to what went down in the GGR), it would have been something to crow about, and a moral victory as I understand the term.

All you got was a trophy and the feel-good associated with burning in effigy. The fact that NE and friends were potent enough to recapture NE briefly should have been a big enough humiliation to dampen the We Are the Champions music.

It also does not really add anything significant to the proposal, other than giving talking points employed by Woodhouse and others about our refound effort further publication in a proposal, which frankly are inaccurate to start with.

I'd love to know what inaccurate talking points you're referring to. This kind of thing maybe? viewtopic.php?p=34173212#p34173212

[Bormiar]

Cpt. Woodhouse, you haven't addressed McM's point that it was a morale victory (or moral victory if that wasn't a typo-- both work).

Edit: I saw Mall browsing the forums. I suspect it was a lot like the refounding of The Joint Systems Alliance, which was falling apart by the time it was commended. That refounding was considered very important.

[Evil Wolf]

-Snip-

Still upset about the destruction of Nazi Europe, I see.

[Boda]

-Snip-

Well that's a nice leak

[Captain Woodhouse]

Cpt. Woodhouse, you haven't addressed McM's point that it was a morale victory (or moral victory if that wasn't a typo-- both work).

I thought I did address it. I'll clarify. I assumed McM didn't make a typo; however, I was pretty sure they weren't referring to the kind of moral victory where only the losers of a conflict or competitive event can claim such a victory under certain circumstances. I figured McM was talking about winning a morality battle—right vs. wrong, if you will. I've difficulty with a morality win in this instance because, first and foremost, all the NE natives were thriving elsewhere, still doing "wrong" shit.

I wouldn’t dream of disputing a morale victory. I likened NAZI EUROPE's destruction to burning in effigy. It's easy to get excited about destroying a symbol.

Edit: I saw Mall browsing the forums. I suspect it was a lot like the refounding of The Joint Systems Alliance, which was falling apart by the time it was commended. That refounding was considered very important.

I've not disputed the value of the NAZI EUROPE trophy either. It's a fine shelf sitter.

Still upset about the destruction of Nazi Europe, I see.

Hardly. I'd love it if you'd get off your butt and destroy a Nazi region that's still swimming, though. Nazi Europa for instance. Considering where NE is at this point, the few unique nations that still give a shit about logging in are unlikely to do so if they're forced to relocate one more time.

Better yet, infiltrate NE's Discord sewer as my people have done. Report their posts to Discord so their accounts are deleted. If you get lucky, NE might lose another server. Every time they lose an account and/or server, they go deeper into hiding and have to be more careful about who they accept into their clubhouse. It really stops them from using the game as an indoctrination tool.

[Evil Wolf]

Hardly. I'd love it if you'd get off your butt and destroy a Nazi region that's still swimming, though. Nazi Europa for instance. Considering where NE is at this point, the few unique nations that still give a shit about logging in are unlikely to do so if they're forced to relocate one more time.

Better yet, infiltrate NE's Discord sewer as my people have done. Report their posts to Discord so their accounts are deleted. If you get lucky, NE might lose another server. Every time they lose an account and/or server, they go deeper into hiding and have to be more careful about who they accept into their clubhouse. It really stops them from using the game as an indoctrination tool.

Oh, I don't disagree with you on NE's discord, from the screenshots I have seen. That being said, you are still continuously upset about the Nazi Europe destruction, going on long trades about it whenever it is mentioned.

These tirades don't seem to be trying to encouraging people to "do better" but rather trying to downplay the public humiliation that the NE faction did, in fact, receive.

I wonder why that is?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Cpt. Woodhouse, you haven't addressed McM's point that it was a morale victory (or moral victory if that wasn't a typo-- both work).

Edit: I saw Mall browsing the forums. I suspect it was a lot like the refounding of The Joint Systems Alliance, which was falling apart by the time it was commended. That refounding was considered very important.

I'm not sure how important the refounding of TJSA was, in the grand scheme of things. To my knowledge, it was the first successful hawking of a commended region - which is, of course, why I hawked it. NE had military importance ascribed to it in a very different way. Both, arguably, have a place in NS history, but I personally wouldn't compare them.

[Bormiar]

Cpt. Woodhouse, you haven't addressed McM's point that it was a morale victory (or moral victory if that wasn't a typo-- both work).

Edit: I saw Mall browsing the forums. I suspect it was a lot like the refounding of The Joint Systems Alliance, which was falling apart by the time it was commended. That refounding was considered very important.

I'm not sure how important the refounding of TJSA was, in the grand scheme of things. To my knowledge, it was the first successful hawking of a commended region - which is, of course, why I hawked it. NE had military importance ascribed to it in a very different way. Both, arguably, have a place in NS history, but I personally wouldn't compare them.

Yeah I was just shooting it out there because I saw your name and didn’t really want to research better examples.

[Captain Woodhouse]

you are still continuously upset about the Nazi Europe destruction, going on long trades about it whenever it is mentioned.

These tirades don't seem to be trying to encouraging people to "do better" but rather trying to downplay the public humiliation that the NE faction did, in fact, receive.

I wonder why that is?

I've done nothing in the game outside of NE and Hell. I know what went down in those regions during my time in them, and I've a mania for correctness.

I wasn't born yesterday. Some kid might succumb to your manipulation tactics, but you're wasting your time and mine by deliberately misinterpreting my mood, motivation and intent, and the tone of my text, to make me look like an apoplectic dumbass.

I'll indulge the public humiliation bit. I wasn't happy about losing NAZI EUROPE. I'm highly competitive and dislike losing period. I didn't have an emotional attachment to founderless NE. It was a ball and chain. German Dragons, Scarsaw, Cutlet and other old-timers took the loss more personally. I don't recall anyone saying they felt humiliated.

[Evil Wolf]

I'll indulge the public humiliation bit. I wasn't happy about losing NAZI EUROPE. I'm highly competitive and dislike losing period. I didn't have an emotional attachment to founderless NE. It was a ball and chain. German Dragons, Scarsaw, Cutlet and other old-timers took the loss more personally.

And right there, as much as you really hate to admit it, you've proven the impact you keep saying doesn't exist. Whole point wasn't just to take Nazi Europe but ultimately to get inside NE's head, and I think that was firmly accomplished. The loss was felt, as you said. We can argue about the semantics of it and re-frame events till the end of time, but I think you unintentionally got it right. Nazi Europa felt that one, and it probably didn't feel real good.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: I love how the same people who jump on the CCD or UM for co-operating with fascists are quick to defend EW despite the similarity. It is also very clear that EW is nothing more than an opportunist who uses people for his own gains.

[Honeydewistania]

OOC: I love how the same people who jump on the CCD or UM for co-operating with fascists are quick to defend EW despite the similarity. It is also very clear that EW is nothing more than an opportunist who uses people for his own gains.

Unlike either of the ones you listed, Nazi Europe ended up as a trophy region because of EW

[Mallorea and Riva]

OOC: I love how the same people who jump on the CCD or UM for co-operating with fascists are quick to defend EW despite the similarity. It is also very clear that EW is nothing more than an opportunist who uses people for his own gains.

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking. If you haven't noticed, the fascists always show up to support repeal attempts of this commendation - because Wolf helped breakdown NE.

Everything you're trying to raise to discredit Wolf was known and discussed at the time of the original commendation. I understand that 10KI was against the proposal then, and you're against it now. Trying to rehash the same issues over and over again, simply because you lost at vote (a frustrating experience when 10KI is so used to having their way in the SC with either liberations or commendations of their own region members) is a waste of everyone's time.

In any event, as predicted, the Woodhouse Yeti has been stirred.

[Aclion]

OOC: I love how the same people who jump on the CCD or UM for co-operating with fascists are quick to defend EW despite the similarity. It is also very clear that EW is nothing more than an opportunist who uses people for his own gains.

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking. If you haven't noticed, the fascists always show up to support repeal attempts of this commendation - because Wolf helped breakdown NE.

Everything you're trying to raise to discredit Wolf was known and discussed at the time of the original commendation. I understand that 10KI was against the proposal then, and you're against it now. Trying to rehash the same issues over and over again, simply because you lost at vote (a frustrating experience when 10KI is so used to having their way in the SC with either liberations or commendations of their own region members) is a waste of everyone's time.

In any event, as predicted, the Woodhouse Yeti has been stirred.

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking.

[Kuriko]

OOC: I love how the same people who jump on the CCD or UM for co-operating with fascists are quick to defend EW despite the similarity. It is also very clear that EW is nothing more than an opportunist who uses people for his own gains.

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking. If you haven't noticed, the fascists always show up to support repeal attempts of this commendation - because Wolf helped breakdown NE.

Everything you're trying to raise to discredit Wolf was known and discussed at the time of the original commendation. I understand that 10KI was against the proposal then, and you're against it now. Trying to rehash the same issues over and over again, simply because you lost at vote (a frustrating experience when 10KI is so used to having their way in the SC with either liberations or commendations of their own region members) is a waste of everyone's time.

In any event, as predicted, the Woodhouse Yeti has been stirred.

Can you not lump XKI into this thread? MG is acting on his own here, not as an official of our region nor as a representative of it. I'd rather not get lumped in with fascists either, thanks.

[Mallorea and Riva]

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking. If you haven't noticed, the fascists always show up to support repeal attempts of this commendation - because Wolf helped breakdown NE.

Everything you're trying to raise to discredit Wolf was known and discussed at the time of the original commendation. I understand that 10KI was against the proposal then, and you're against it now. Trying to rehash the same issues over and over again, simply because you lost at vote (a frustrating experience when 10KI is so used to having their way in the SC with either liberations or commendations of their own region members) is a waste of everyone's time.

In any event, as predicted, the Woodhouse Yeti has been stirred.

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking.

The mental gymnastics on display in this post are breathtaking. If you haven't noticed, the fascists always show up to support repeal attempts of this commendation - because Wolf helped breakdown NE.

Everything you're trying to raise to discredit Wolf was known and discussed at the time of the original commendation. I understand that 10KI was against the proposal then, and you're against it now. Trying to rehash the same issues over and over again, simply because you lost at vote (a frustrating experience when 10KI is so used to having their way in the SC with either liberations or commendations of their own region members) is a waste of everyone's time.

In any event, as predicted, the Woodhouse Yeti has been stirred.

Can you not lump XKI into this thread? MG is acting on his own here, not as an official of our region nor as a representative of it. I'd rather not get lumped in with fascists either, thanks.

I don't blame you, I wouldn't want my region associated with trying to downplay the attack on NE and/or the repeated failed attempts to repeal the commendation. I'll try to keep the line between the author and the region more clear in my posts, cheers.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

OOC: I love how the same people who jump on the CCD or UM for co-operating with fascists are quick to defend EW despite the similarity. It is also very clear that EW is nothing more than an opportunist who uses people for his own gains.

UM literally worked with fascists to attack the treatied ally of a region he was a minister in during the present day - there's a pretty big fucking difference to stuff from years and years ago now.