[DEFEATED] Repeal "Commend Evil Wolf"

[Mallorea and Riva]

I'm good at what I do. Your post has some broken quotes in it, would you mind correcting? Makes it easier to continue the discussion.

Only when its an inexperienced player Mall. Harder to do with someone used to you But i'm staying out of this mess, I'll let EW rewrite the Laz history.

Thanks DYP

Oh come now, Mall. It was just a bit of fun.

*LOTR intensifies*

[Captain Woodhouse]

I dare say if I had been "terrified of exposure", I would have used one of my hundreds of puppets to message them. Also, LWU was honorably Condemned in 2011, the incident you're referring to happened in 2013. That's a time lapse of at 2 years, if not more. If you consider that to be "recent" in NS terms, I have a myriad of concerns. Of course, you know that the two events weren't "recent" of each other, it just sounded better and you didn't think I'd call you out on it.

I've read the above paragraph several times. I think you misinterpreted my response to Mall's "sneaky screenshot" bit, but I don't know how. It's clear I wasn't referencing LWU. I referred to a region condemned this year and one of its leaders.

Many players approached NE for a number of reasons—some with puppets, who refused to unmask when I told them I would't deal with anons; others used their mains, bold as brass. One well-known raider supported a couple of our ops and dug hanging out in NE. He let me know who he was from the get-go.

I know you're not timid, EW. You're the kind of player who'd approach NE with your main then use ad homs to get out of any sticky business later.

*Crack Knuckles*

That's pretty much how an anarchist began his attack during an engagement when he thought he'd "decapitated" me by correcting what he believed was my misspelling of Redoutable, a French ship.

Actually, you've entered just about every Commend discussion that has ever happened where the Commend mentioned the destruction of Nazi Europe, always to argue against those commended, including The Red Fleet and the MT Army's commends and several repeal attempts mentioning me.

I entered one other EW Repeal debate of which I'm aware. I know I entered MT and TRF Commend and Repeal debates—as did a number of mainstream players who argued the same valid points.

This is you doing the ad hom boogie again, hoping to kill valid arguments—that I don't own exclusively—by discrediting me via a former association that ended November 2016.

This has always been a topic you've argued passionately about, Woodhouse, so much so that people on Discord were taking bets on when you might show up in this very thread to argue about NE.

Can y'all explain what you think is my 2020 objective for being here? No, seriously, I want some rationale. I've exchanged numerous lengthy and cordial DMs with Vippertooth over the past few years. We're on friendly terms. I've been doing anti-fascist ops exclusively since 2016. I hate NE; NE hates me. I hate every other Nazi and fascist region in the game. So lay some logic on me, amigo. It better be good cos it makes no sense for me to be loving on folks who tried to find me and hurt me in the real world.

I do tend to lie to my enemies upon occasion, yes. Like, for example, when I lied to German Dragons and said I was going to help him out and re-enforce Nazi Europe before the Liberation hit, but in reality packed the region full of NPA flying a flase flag. I especially enjoyed lying to German Dragons. His confusion gave me joy.

My post you quoted addressed your motive for taking out NE. Many newer players haven't a clue about your motive. They'll read the shit that's posted here and do the lemming yup yup thing.

Mall's statement that you "worked actively to undermine and destroy fash groups over the long term" suggests you might dig ideological raiding. But, you said you worked against NE for fame and glory, period. Ideology wasn't a factor.

Reiterating your motive is important for two reasons. Self-serving, opportunistic actions aren't particularly commendable. Motive establishes where you were in your head when you approached GD and LCG in December 2013 with the refound info.

Well, first, you claim I passed on that information to take revenge against the UDL.

No, I didn’t make that claim. I mentioned your malice toward defenders in general. I posted the TG with the Unibot reference as an example.

If that's true, why did I got after an FRA held region? UDL and FRA didn't exactly get along with each other at that time.

FRUDL was a thing at that time—especially FRUDL anti-Nazi ops. That said, I didn't suggest you went after a particular defender org. You've stated yourself that you're an opportunist. I've suggested you took advantage of an opportunity to hurt defenders—in general.

I struggled to harmonize with Nazi and fascist leaders behind the scenes. All we had in common was a military gameplay agenda. When an interest was lost to the enemy, it was felt by all. Defenders have a military gameplay agenda that unites them. Just because the FRA specifically maintained a presence in Jew and intended to refound it, doesn't mean only the FRA would have suffered the loss of Jew to Nazis.

Furthermore, from what I remember of a throw away telegram from seven years ago, and the related context I gleamed from my TG box, it seems my intention to pass on that information to GGR and NE wasn't exactly intended to favor them

If piecing together the "related context" helped jog your memory, maybe piecing it together and posting it here would help me believe the next bit.

You see, I seem to recall that whenever players of a certain political inclination refounded the region of "Jew", specifically, they always seemed to end up deleted for some strange reason.

Are you really saying you tipped off GD and LCG, hoping one of their main nations would be deleted for refounding Jew? You know that wouldn't have happened. Something else you know: had either one been interested, they would have refounded Jew with a puppet. And you know only the puppet would have been deleted—if what you're telling me about automatic deletions for refounding Jew is even true.

It hardly seems worthwhile to involve yourself in a goofy prank that would kill a puppet at best. Coupled with the fact that ideological conflict ain't your thing, and you told GD your business with NE wasn't personal, I think you're zooming me big time. But do post what you've got to prove this crud you want me to swallow.

I'm guessing that's probably why NE and GGR didn't bite

You're guessing wrong. No one in the clubhouse had any knowledge of fash players being automatically deleted for refounding Jew. I'm only aware of regions that aren't permitted to be refounded by anyone. Example: Nazi

Of course, the other context you're leaving out, I am sure by pure accident and not because it undermines your argument, is that years ago I profusely apologized for working with GGR and any other far-right radical elements. Publicly, in fact.

I can't omit information that I don't know exists. I suppose you're saying your role in the destruction of an abandoned region was a get out of jail free card, and that any ugly crud you did with fash before the refound should be struck from your record automatically. Most I've heard is that you used fash to support your ops. Using fash to hurt defenders in retaliation for them leaking your raid info to Nazis (unproven) is another beast entirely. I think you deserve a Condemnation badge, EW, but the Commendation is just out there, man.

[WayNeacTia]

OOC: I have fleshed out this proposal as I will be pursuing this repeal attempt, and consequentially will be submitting this in the next few days; any additional feedback will be helpful.

You should let it cook some more, or better yet just get rid of it. It won't pass.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: I have fleshed out this proposal as I will be pursuing this repeal attempt, and consequentially will be submitting this in the next few days; any additional feedback will be helpful.

You should let it cook some more, or better yet just get rid of it. It won't pass.

OOC: I won't be submitting this until after Commend CD, so about a week or two.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: Considering Commend CD was submitted and failed weeks ago, I will be submitting this in the next few days, pending some spare time I can use for campaigning. Feedback will be appreciated.

[Honeydewistania]

If you don’t want it to fail as big as Commend CD, better not submit it

[Fauxia]

I’m not sure I can possibly support a resolution that italicizes the word "repeals". That’s the active clause, for Pete’s sake, let it stand on its own.

Edit: You also currently mention "Killer Kity", omitting a second ‘t’.

[Marxist Germany]

I’m not sure I can possibly support a resolution that italicizes the word "repeals". That’s the active clause, for Pete’s sake, let it stand on its own.

OOC: My bad, I was supposed to remove the bolds/italics altogether beforehand. Fixed.

[Comfed]

Wait. Why is someone repealing an anti-fascist commendation?

[Awesomeland012345]

Wait. Why is someone repealing an anti-fascist commendation?

Read the proposal.

[Marxist Germany]

Wait. Why is someone repealing an anti-fascist commendation?

OOC: The target is an infamous raider that has been griefing and wreaking havoc for over a decade.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Wait. Why is someone repealing an anti-fascist commendation?

OOC: The target is an infamous raider that has been griefing and wreaking havoc for over a decade.

If only the voters had known this when it passed the first time around!

[Fauxia]

OOC: The target is an infamous raider that has been griefing and wreaking havoc for over a decade.

If only the voters had known this when it passed the first time around!

Eh, considering a repeal of this was a single approval from quorum last time (when quorum was ~35-40 delegates higher) it was tried (with an author who was a numbskull about how to campaign quickly), maybe it’s time to put it up to vote again

Although, I’m not even sure anymore whether I support the repeal. He isn’t commended for raiding.

[Numero Capitan]

Looks like you can add being party to deliberate votestacking in order to undermine the democratic institutions of Lazarus, and being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

[Dollystana]

Disagree, fascism is a cause to be stamped out everywhere, no matter the actions.

[Xoriet]

Looks like you can add being party to deliberate votestacking in order to undermine the democratic institutions of Lazarus, and being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

Bowzin refused to drop any names other than Cormac to NES in the conversation, and it's well known that Evil Wolf isn't around right now to defend himself when his name is brought up. His name is entirely possibly a distraction from numerous other people who knew what he intended whose names he refused to give up. Up until Evil Wolf shows up to confirm or deny this or Bowzin provides log evidence, I'd hold on the Balder accusations being fact.

[Fauxia]

Looks like you can add being party to deliberate votestacking in order to undermine the democratic institutions of Lazarus, and being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

Bowzin refused to drop any names other than Cormac to NES in the conversation, and it's well known that Evil Wolf isn't around right now to defend himself when his name is brought up. His name is entirely possibly a distraction from numerous other people who knew what he intended whose names he refused to give up. Up until Evil Wolf shows up to confirm or deny this, I'd hold on the Balder accusations being fact.

Even if they are factual, I would think there would be a fairly large amount of the player base sympathetic to EW's supposed conspiratorial role here. MG doesn't add anything to the proposal by adding that. Balder rarely votes, but I'm sure if NES really believes those claims, he'll vote for a repeal anyway.

Disagree, fascism is a cause to be stamped out everywhere, no matter the actions.

I don't think you read the proposal. It has no qualms with raiding fascists. What it does say is that EW isn't suited for a commendation because of coups and raids of a lot more than just fascists.

[North East Somerset]

Bowzin refused to drop any names other than Cormac to NES in the conversation, and it's well known that Evil Wolf isn't around right now to defend himself when his name is brought up. His name is entirely possibly a distraction from numerous other people who knew what he intended whose names he refused to give up. Up until Evil Wolf shows up to confirm or deny this, I'd hold on the Balder accusations being fact.

Even if they are factual, I would think there would be a fairly large amount of the player base sympathetic to EW's supposed conspiratorial role here. MG doesn't add anything to the proposal by adding that. Balder rarely votes, but I'm sure if NES really believes those claims, he'll vote for a repeal anyway.

For the record, I vote on the vast majority of SC votes (and GA votes). And if I don't its a deliberate abstain. I am undecided how to vote on repeal Commend EW currently.

[RiderSyl]

Looks like you can add being party to deliberate votestacking in order to undermine the democratic institutions of Lazarus, and being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

Condemn Evil Wolf

[Bormiar]

being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

"Co-conspirator" as Bowzin put it meant "knowing about it". I can't see you informing Balder if someone was trying to coup them. In fact, I know you wouldn't. I don't see Balder playing into your hands by voting for this, for obvious reasons .

Bowzin never would've been able to coup. You would have to be playing 4D chess to reform with the laws he detailed.

[Daytime to Night]

being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

"Co-conspirator" as Bowzin put it meant "knowing about it". I can't see you informing Balder if someone was trying to coup them. In fact, I know you wouldn't. I don't see Balder playing into your hands by voting for this, for obvious reasons

Then you clearly don't know me, I've spent all my NS career protecting the native delegates of GCRs and if I'm ever in receipt of information about a genuine attempt to coup any of them then I would act without bias. That has led me to work closely with all kinds of people. Although, if personal values weren't enough then the nobility of Balder begrudgingly having to accept my help would be reward enough too. Don't slur me with baseless accusations that you certainly don't know.

I deliberately used the language used by Bowzin, but it is clearly pertinent information to this deliberation.

EWs foray into anti-fascism would look far more commendable if he hadn't spent the rest of his NS career trying to do the same thing to everyone else regardless of alignment.

[Bormiar]

"Co-conspirator" as Bowzin put it meant "knowing about it". I can't see you informing Balder if someone was trying to coup them. In fact, I know you wouldn't. I don't see Balder playing into your hands by voting for this, for obvious reasons

Then you clearly don't know me, I've spent all my NS career protecting the native delegates of GCRs and if I'm ever in receipt of information about a genuine attempt to coup any of them then I would act without bias. That has led me to work closely with all kinds of people. Although, if personal values weren't enough then the nobility of Balder begrudgingly having to accept my help would be reward enough too. Don't slur me with baseless accusations that you certainly don't know.

I deliberately used the language used by Bowzin, but it is clearly pertinent information to this deliberation.

EWs foray into anti-fascism would look far more commendable if he hadn't spent the rest of his NS career trying to do the same thing to everyone else regardless of alignment.

I suppose I can't argue with that because you said genuine.

Are you trying to secure TNP/Europeia/Balder's vote by having that put in? It's not even provable and those regions don't have a binary view of the world (you can either be commended or condemned). They're not voting for.

[Daytime to Night]

I'm not trying to secure anything, it's not my proposal. I have some sympathy with it and have suggested content that might not be at the forefront of the authors mind, but certainly not campaigning for votes either way.

Those regions aren't going to be swayed by my view either way but I know they will all be aware of those revelations when it comes to considering this without me needing to point those things out. Providing information in here is more for the benefit of those who aren't as aware of NSGP day to day matters.

[North East Somerset]

being a 'co-conspirator' in an attempted coup of Balder to Evil Wolf's resume in light of this weekends revelations.

"Co-conspirator" as Bowzin put it meant "knowing about it". I can't see you informing Balder if someone was trying to coup them. In fact, I know you wouldn't. I don't see Balder playing into your hands by voting for this, for obvious reasons .

Balder will be voting For this currently, so its possible your "obvious" understanding of how you think Balder works is less complete than you imagine.

Also I'm interested in what you mean by "I know you wouldn't"?

Then you clearly don't know me, I've spent all my NS career protecting the native delegates of GCRs

Just for the public record, so it's clear, am I a "native delegate" of a GCR under your definitions?

[Daytime to Night]

Just for the public record, so it's clear, am I a "native delegate" of a GCR under your definitions?

I'll caveat this by saying that I would love to see sinkers that were genuinely built out of returning players rather than active players who deliberately placed themselves in those regions. I think the stewards of those regions should be more proactive about placing power in the hands of natural natives (the same could be said of TRR of course, albeit there may be conduct concerns there). But you are certainly a native delegate as a corollary of your tenure and investment in the region.

Of course legitimacy is not necessarily equal to adequacy.