[DRAFT] Condemn Fedele

[Youssath]

The idea that "this condemnation is merely just an honour badge!" is the truth, based on the fact that all condemnations are honour badges. Just ask anyone who's gotten a condemnation.

Alright, then if that is such a case - then what's the point of having the Security Council in the first place? Since you claimed that everyone thinks that commendations/condemnations are honour badges to collect, then you might as well shut this entire facade down - since in its entirety, "everyone" thinks that the Security Council is nothing more than "giving wacky badges".

How about asking the residents of The East Pacific, who neither want nor need this? Just see Wallenburg and Tim Stark's responses.

The same can be said for The tanks of herp and Peatiktist responses here. What makes you think everyone in TEP is against the condemnation of Fedele? Go back to TEP's RMB and scroll back a few pages if you still think everyone is against condemning what Fedele did.

Condemnations are about actions, not character.

Actions will come from the character of someone who is plotting something malicious within the system. Tell that to the people in the Nuremberg Trials - why do you think people are still being indicted for participating in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace, even though most of them were just following orders? Simply because you were putting people into the gas chambers, doesn't mean that you are not guilty of the crime itself. There's this thing called conscience here, and you better damn know the difference between right and wrong in the first place. The same analogy can be explained here, why should Fedele be excused from a condemnation - since the actions committed by his own character is exactly the type that is awfully wrong and inexcusable?

Fedele has been attention-seeking this whole time...You want to reward him for his behaviour?

Exactly tell me once again how is a condemnation linking both of your stories up here. Because right now, I can't even see the logic as to what you are getting to given what he has previous done. I suggest that you read up exactly what he did prior to this coup, before using the term "attention-seeking" to describe the wholly character and actions of Fedele.

It's not my fault you hadn't taken the time to know the gameplay community's perspective on condemnations, and the community's views on Fedele, and instead chose to isolate yourself in CCD woefully unaware.

I highly doubt my time in your region would have educated me on the community's views on Fedele. After all, it seems that one can almost say you are defending Fedele from his crimes himself by not proceeding on with this condemnation.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: Might have supported this if the coup lasted, fortunately it didn't.

[Youssath]

OOC: Might have supported this if the coup lasted, fortunately it didn't.

I would suggest looking less into the coup itself, and more into what he did as Delegate for TEP. A condemnation just for a failed coup is not worthy of my time in the first place.

[Gorundu]

Alright, I'm going to post with this nation now because apparently I'm not credible enough to you.

Exactly tell me once again how is a condemnation linking both of your stories up here. Because right now, I can't even see the logic as to what you are getting to given what he has previous done. I suggest that you read up exactly what he did prior to this coup, before using the term "attention-seeking" to describe the wholly character and actions of Fedele.

A condemnation is a badge for people who have been able to coup regions successfully and actually change the course of a region's history. I've been following this for longer than you have, and his attention-seeking is a widely agreed upon opinion. Yes, couping is also part of attention-seeking. And his actions beforehand was his experimentation of how far he can push his illegal activities before people finally take action - a smart move, because it both stirs up attention around him, all the while people were still scratching their heads trying to interpret his actions.

I highly doubt my time in your region would have educated me on the community's views on Fedele. After all, it seems that one can almost say you are defending Fedele from his crimes himself by not proceeding on with this condemnation.

Alright, say what you want. All of TNP is opposed to this condemnation. We must be horrible people, trying to remove him from power while you blabber your way in the SC. On the other hand, I'm sure CCD is a bastion of morality.

[Youssath]

A condemnation is a badge for people who have been able to coup regions successfully and actually change the course of a region's history.

That is funny, coming from you. Because the last I knew, a condemnation was given to someone simply for collecting cards.

And there goes your definition along with your supposed "credibility" that you have been longer than me on this game. That's not to mention you only have nine posts to your name, but I will excuse that since I don't have a lot of posts to make as well.

Alright, say what you want. All of TNP is opposed to this condemnation. We must be horrible people, trying to remove him from power while you blabber your way in the SC. On the other hand, I'm sure CCD is a bastion of morality.

No one is saying TNP are horrible people, and no one is also saying the CCD is a bastion of morality in the first place. Stop trying to put words into my mouth.

[Gorundu]

That is funny, coming from you. Because the last I knew, a condemnation was given to someone simply for collecting cards. Thanks for giving me such a good laugh.

Thank you for taking me out of context. My statement is clearly only referring to the condemnations based on coups, which is what the majority of condemnations are based on. What you referenced was an experimental condemnation, based on a different type of action, and I must say, it was rather well-written and deserved. However, traditional actions like coups have past precedents in condemnations, a precedent that has been reaffirmed multiple times, so that must carry some weight, huh?

No one is saying TNP are horrible people, and no one is also saying the CCD is a bastion of morality in the first place. Stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Apologies, you seemed to have suggested everyone who oppose a condemnation must be defending Fedele. And I quote: "it seems that one can almost say you are defending Fedele from his crimes himself by not proceeding on with this condemnation."

Also, to take care of a previous point, verbally condemning Fedele for his actions is a completely different thing from a Security Council Condemnation. Of course he's being slammed in the RMB (I participated), because what he did was wrong and illegal. However, a Condemnation is only for those who have the ability to carry out something significant, not just doing something illegal (which everyone could do). Again, would have helped if you had learnt about this first.

[Youssath]

Thank you for taking me out of context. My statement is clearly only referring to the condemnations based on coups, which is what the majority of condemnations are based on. What you referenced was an experimental condemnation, based on a different type of action, and I must say, it was rather well-written and deserved. However, traditional actions like coups have past precedents in condemnations, a precedent that has been reaffirmed multiple times, so that must carry some weight, huh?

It doesn't matter. The moment you pass something like this in the Security Council as a condemnation resolution, you are effectively challenging the precedent - not to mention the definition of what a condemnation is in the first place. I would rather like to keep things simplified and true to its name, which is to say: condemnations is a resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region. Your definition of what a condemnation is, despite majority of the SC resolutions here saying otherwise, is soon to be outdated, and I will suggest that you read up on passed SC resolutions before arguing further on this matter.

Apologies, you seemed to have suggested everyone who oppose a condemnation must be defending Fedele. And I quote: "it seems that one can almost say you are defending Fedele from his crimes himself by not proceeding on with this condemnation."

Mmm. Well, East Meranopirus did say "it's not my fault to isolate yourself in CCD woefully unaware". But given on his stance against such a condemnation, I doubt if I would know any better if I were to reside in his region if the Delegate is highly against this sort of high crimes and demeanours.

carry out something significant

So you are saying the attempted thought crimes, the policy of purging "marsupials", the consolidation of foreign influence from the Lone Wolves United (LWU) and the Rahl family and the attempted foreign intervention in TEP's 2019 June Delegate elections are not significant, even though he pulled off a spectacularly laughable coup (which honestly, I wish I hadn't put that in, if it weren't for him violating regional laws such as the Endorsement Caps Act)?

Shouldn't those acts that I have mentioned impacted The East Pacific significantly? The complete ejection of "rejects" from TEP has certainly brought the regional population down for a moment of time, and it has definitely altered the political course of The East Pacific.

Laughable. I don't wish to add more salt into injury here, but I believe that if you wish to attack my CCD authorship here: it's best if you correct the term "fascists" on all of us.

[Gorundu]

It doesn't matter. The moment you pass something like this in the Security Council as a condemnation resolution, you are effectively challenging the precedent - not to mention the definition of what a condemnation is in the first place. I would rather like to keep things simplified and true to its name, which is to say: condemnations is a resolution to express shock and dismay at a nation or region. Your definition of what a condemnation is, despite majority of the SC resolutions here saying otherwise, is soon to be outdated, and I will suggest that you read up on passed SC resolutions before arguing further on this matter.

Let's review them, shall we? From the back. North East Somerset - coups; The New Inquisition - coups; Durkadurkiranistan II - coups; Pierconium - coups; Darkesia - coups; United World Order - I'll admit, this one's about Roleplay; Macedon - coups. Need I continue further?

Challenging a pre-existing precedent would need a reason that the previous precedent isn't working, or that this one will work better. You haven't given either. All I see happening with this one is encouraging more people to do illegal stuff to get shiny badges. "Look, I've been condemned by the Security Council, I must be important!"

So you are saying the attempted thought crimes, the policy of purging "marsupials", the consolidation of foreign influence from the Lone Wolves United (LWU) and the Rahl family and the attempted foreign intervention in TEP's 2019 June Delegate elections are not significant, even though he pulled off a spectacularly laughable coup (which honestly, I wish I hadn't put that in, if it weren't for him violating regional laws such as the Endorsement Caps Act)?

Shouldn't those acts that I have mentioned impacted The East Pacific significantly? The complete ejection of "rejects" from TEP has certainly brought the regional population down for a moment of time, and it has definitely altered the political course of The East Pacific.

What they did was illegal, yes, but anyone can do something illegal. Doing illegal things require no effort. Couping, on the other hand, does require effort. You're basically condemning him for something anyone could have done. And no, they don't have a significant impact. Those Rahls and LWUs are gone already, policy of purging marsupials have been on halt for a few months now and will be discontinued.

[Youssath]

Let's review them, shall we? From the back. North East Somerset - coups; The New Inquisition - coups; Durkadurkiranistan II - coups; Pierconium - coups; Darkesia - coups; United World Order - I'll admit, this one's about Roleplay; Macedon - coups. Need I continue further?

Challenging a pre-existing precedent would need a reason that the previous precedent isn't working, or that this one will work better. You haven't given either. All I see happening with this one is encouraging more people to do illegal stuff to get shiny badges. "Look, I've been condemned by the Security Council, I must be important!"

I will leave at it that we will "agree to disagree" at this point, because clearly both of us will never accept each other way of thinking. If you look at all of the Security Council condemnations, you will find that they are made up of GA-repealing matters, Roleplay or whatsoever matter you can find within there. While I will agree with you that coups forms the majority in the SC condemnations, nevertheless it does not excuse the fact that what Fedele did on The East Pacific - the 5th most populated region in NationStates - exceeds far greater in weight than all of these regions you have mentioned, and that's not even mentioning the terrible acts that he has did as Delegate which I said earlier.

The statement where "a condemnation is a badge for people who have been able to coup regions successfully and actually change the course of a region's history" does not stand here. The region affected here is too big to ignore, and this is not including his attacks on the regional institutions of TEP.

What they did was illegal, yes, but anyone can do something illegal. Doing illegal things require no effort. Couping, on the other hand, does require effort. You're basically condemning him for something anyone could have done. And no, they don't have a significant impact. Those Rahls and LWUs are gone already, policy of purging marsupials have been on halt for a few months now and will be discontinued.

An attempted coup is a thing that supported this resolution, but it does not form the basis of this resolution here. And no, just because the Rahls and LWUs are gone from TEP - doesn't mean the crimes committed while they are there are gone with them as well. Fedele needs to be held accountable for his actions for usurping the democratic institutions within TEP, before and during the time when the Rahls and LWUs are still in control of TEP.

This is not to mention that he attempted to interfere with the democratic elections of the Delegate, along with the purging of the "marsupials" back then while it was effective. Like both of us have said before, just because a significant policy such as the banishment of "marsupials" was discontinued later on for a few months now, does not mean that those who were previously ejected from TEP under this policy can be ignored. These events have altered the political events and landscape of TEP, and to say that they are "illegal" would be an understatement as to the severity of the crimes he did.

And no, they don't have a significant impact.

You are effectively disregarding all of the things Fedele did back then as "insignificant", when if he could have been a tad more smarter in knowing what wars to fight in the first place, he could have effectively taken over control of The East Pacific - a major region in NationStates. That is not to mention that he removed the Viziers of TEP, which could have left TEP at a more vulnerable position if some raiders decide it was the most convenient time to attack the region now (even though that will require a lot of coordination, I will admit).

So no. The argument where these crimes are significant will still persist. Coups are significant, interfering in elections of a major region is significant and undermining the national security of the region is significant to begin with. There is no indisputable truth than that.

[Gorundu]

Let's review them, shall we? From the back. North East Somerset - coups; The New Inquisition - coups; Durkadurkiranistan II - coups; Pierconium - coups; Darkesia - coups; United World Order - I'll admit, this one's about Roleplay; Macedon - coups. Need I continue further?

Challenging a pre-existing precedent would need a reason that the previous precedent isn't working, or that this one will work better. You haven't given either. All I see happening with this one is encouraging more people to do illegal stuff to get shiny badges. "Look, I've been condemned by the Security Council, I must be important!"

I will leave at it that we will "agree to disagree" at this point, because clearly both of us will never accept each other way of thinking. If you look at all of the Security Council condemnations, you will find that they are made up of GA-repealing matters, Roleplay or whatsoever matter you can find within there. While I will agree with you that coups forms the majority in the SC condemnations, nevertheless it does not excuse the fact that what Fedele did on The East Pacific - the 5th most populated region in NationStates - exceeds far greater in weight than all of these regions you have mentioned, and that's not even mentioning the terrible acts that he has did as Delegate which I said earlier.

The statement where "a condemnation is a badge for people who have been able to coup regions successfully and actually change the course of a region's history" does not stand here. The region affected here is too big to ignore, and this is not including his attacks on the regional institutions of TEP.

What they did was illegal, yes, but anyone can do something illegal. Doing illegal things require no effort. Couping, on the other hand, does require effort. You're basically condemning him for something anyone could have done. And no, they don't have a significant impact. Those Rahls and LWUs are gone already, policy of purging marsupials have been on halt for a few months now and will be discontinued.

An attempted coup is a thing that supported this resolution, but it does not form the basis of this resolution here. And no, just because the Rahls and LWUs are gone from TEP - doesn't mean the crimes committed while they are there are gone with them as well. Fedele needs to be held accountable for his actions for usurping the democratic institutions within TEP, before and during the time when the Rahls and LWUs are still in control of TEP.

This is not to mention that he attempted to interfere with the democratic elections of the Delegate, along with the purging of the "marsupials" back then while it was effective. Like both of us have said before, just because a significant policy such as the banishment of "marsupials" was discontinued later on for a few months now, does not mean that those who were previously ejected from TEP under this policy can be ignored. These events have altered the political events and landscape of TEP, and to say that they are "illegal" would be an understatement as to the severity of the crimes he did.

Don't have much time, so I'm just gonna say this: Fedele will be best punished by the TEP people and TEP Conclave, and by other regions blacklisting him, not by a shiny badge on his page.

Just for your information, many of those condemnations feature coups in large GCRs, most of them more than just a single occurence. Fedele has not done any of that, and his actions are already being reversed. He couldn't even get his preferred candidate elected Delegate to continue what he was doing. The things he did were but a prelude to a failed coup.

[Youssath]

Don't have much time, so I'm just gonna say this: Fedele will be best punished by the TEP people and TEP Conclave, and by other regions blacklisting him, not by a shiny badge on his page.

Just for your information, many of those condemnations feature coups in large GCRs, most of them more than just a single occurence. Fedele has not done any of that, and his actions are already being reversed. He couldn't even get his preferred candidate elected Delegate to continue what he was doing. The things he did were but a prelude to a failed coup.

Understandable, then how about this stance that I have previously stated at the start:

That is a possible stance on this matter. However, I think I will leave it up to the international community and its democratic institutions to decide the fate of the vote on the condemnation of Fedele. Such actions are of grave nature, and it is worth to see what the Security Council, as a whole, feels about this.

Fedele will be punished by TEP people and the Conclave. This condemnation resolution will be left up to vote by the international community to decide for themselves whether he is worthy for such a condemnation in the first place. And yes, the deeds Fedele did can be reversible, that does not mean that they did not exist in the first place.

Thanks for your time. If you want to discuss this matter further, feel free to TG me.

[Airrajul]

OOC: Fedele doesn't deserve a condemnation, he had the intention but his execution was horrible. If anything, he should just have a piece of paper saying "I Did Naughty Things" flex-taped onto his back, but not a condemnation. I can almost smell the ego in both the person that proposed this and in the person against this, pretending to be smarter than they are when they aren't and feeling as if they're playing a key role in trying pass/deny a draft for slapping on a I Am Dunce badge on Fedele.

[Lord Dominator]

This wasn't just your average coup though. The guy had total control of one of the largest GCRs in the world. It was definitely one of the most chaos inducing things I've ever seen.

There's 9 GCRs that matter, having control of one of them is hardly notable.

[Youssath]

OOC: Fedele doesn't deserve a condemnation, he had the intention but his execution was horrible. If anything, he should just have a piece of paper saying "I Did Naughty Things" flex-taped onto his back, but not a condemnation. I can almost smell the ego in both the person that proposed this and in the person against this, pretending to be smarter than they are when they aren't and feeling as if they're playing a key role in trying pass/deny a draft for slapping on a I Am Dunce badge on Fedele.

I am just going to leave this up to the democratic vote, alright?

There's 9 GCRs that matter, having control of one of them is hardly notable.

Except that one of them happens to be the 5th largest region in NS. :^)

[Lord Dominator]

There's 9 GCRs that matter, having control of one of them is hardly notable.

Except that one of them happens to be the 5th largest region in NS. :^)

I was speaking to a statement that said 'largest GCR,' which makes my responding statement perfectly reasonable.

[Wabbitslayah]

redacted

[Ramaeus]

He doesn't deserve a Condemnation. This coup was so poorly executed that it only deserves to be mocked.

[Wabbitslayah]

He doesn't deserve a Condemnation. This coup was so poorly executed that it only deserves to be mocked.

Yes because one coup reflects everything on a person.

[Youssath]

I was speaking to a statement that said 'largest GCR,' which makes my responding statement perfectly reasonable.

Hmm, fair point.

He doesn't deserve a Condemnation. This coup was so poorly executed that it only deserves to be mocked.

Okay, how about condemning him for being such a twat in not knowing how to set up a good coup in the first place?

But yeah, I still stand for the condemnation.

[Audioslavia]

Hi Youssath. Rather than striking through any insults to other users on the site, its best if you simply don't write them in the first place. We have rules attacking the player instead of their argument/actions. Please don't flame. Cheers.

[East Meranopirus]

Understandable, then how about this stance that I have previously stated at the start:

That is a possible stance on this matter. However, I think I will leave it up to the international community and its democratic institutions to decide the fate of the vote on the condemnation of Fedele. Such actions are of grave nature, and it is worth to see what the Security Council, as a whole, feels about this.

Fedele will be punished by TEP people and the Conclave. This condemnation resolution will be left up to vote by the international community to decide for themselves whether he is worthy for such a condemnation in the first place. And yes, the deeds Fedele did can be reversible, that does not mean that they did not exist in the first place.

Thanks for your time. If you want to discuss this matter further, feel free to TG me.

You seem awfully optimistic that the international community would agree with you. If I was more cynical I would say you're just jumping on bandwagons (on the right side and the wrong side) without understanding the full context, like you did last time with TIC.

I was speaking to a statement that said 'largest GCR,' which makes my responding statement perfectly reasonable.

Hmm, fair point.

He doesn't deserve a Condemnation. This coup was so poorly executed that it only deserves to be mocked.

Okay, how about condemning him for being such a twat in not knowing how to set up a good coup in the first place?

But yeah, I still stand for the condemnation.

And this - how about that's not condemnable?

[Ramaeus]

And this - how about that's not condemnable?

Because it was so laughably bad that it accomplished little more than spurring activity within TEP. Presumably, the exact opposite of what they intended.

[The Stalker]

Yea not sure one brief failed coup warrants awarding them a Condemnation and giving them more attention. Bringing this to vote will likely just fail anyway.

One suggestion I do have for the resolution itself, I would only link to the region / nation the first time you mention them. You don't need to link to them every time.