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[Abandoned] Repeal "Liberate CoCD"

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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WayNeacTia
Senator
 
Posts: 4330
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby WayNeacTia » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:30 pm

Jocospor wrote:
Kaboomlandia wrote:I see this argument a lot whenever I or someone else tries to argue that the region would be raidable, and I think in your idealism you are underestimating how truly impossible it is to raid CCD.

Let's just ignore the fact that the Delegate is the founder and has 200+ endorsements, because that alone should stop any attempt at raiding in its tracks.

There are four people in CCD with Border Control power that aren't Joc. Three of them have ~130 endorsements, which is about 50% more than the single largest jump to a single region I have ever seen (NSIA, October 2016). They're obviously not all going to hit, so let's say with an 80% hit rate on a jump, you're gonna need about 160-165 people involved. Now let's look at influence of the three big WA members with border control: 105,000, 87,000, 73,000. Any of these three nations could easily eject all the invaders dozens of times over on their own without blinking an eye, even if the jump miraculously hits and people perfectly cross-endorse in the jump point. If there is a military organization talented enough and insane enough to run 50+ near-flawless attrition runs in a row with more than thirteen dozen people, I'd like to meet them.


And keep in mind those numbers are if Joc were deleted right now. It'll only get more impossible.

I'm in support of this just so people can realize that the raid has about as much chance of being successful as the one on Area 51.


The secretary's hands are sweating so much that the receiver's gone slippery. He knows what happens here. "Commodore, I swear...yes, I SWEAR Wolf's-bane was sealed!!"


You really need to put a lid on it Joco. No one cares about your one man roleplay festival.
Sarcasm dispensed moderately.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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Johanneslanden
Secretary
 
Posts: 35
Founded: Oct 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Johanneslanden » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:08 pm

Oh, please, not this again.

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Marxist Germany
Minister
 
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Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Marxist Germany » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:11 pm

Johanneslanden wrote:Oh, please, not this again.

OOC: Its the debate to end all debates (on this matter)!
Author of GA#461, GA#470, GA#477, GA#481, GA#486 (co-author), and SC#295

Former delegate of The United Federations; citizen and former Senior Senator of 10000 Islands; 113th Knight of TITO

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:50 pm

Marxist Germany wrote:
Johanneslanden wrote:Oh, please, not this again.

OOC: Its the debate to end all debates (on this matter)!

That was several repeal attempts ago

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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 984
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:52 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Jocospor wrote:OOC: (Sorry, double) Actually in theory I could always make direct bank transfers to trusted nations on the Supreme Council, and Moderation couldn't do anything about that. Hmm...

I was more speaking in regards to whether or not that'd count as assisting a DoS nation, as I'm reasonably sure Moderation/Admin have or could have ways to block that if they so desired.

OOC: Ah I see. But unless Moderation blocked everyone in CCD from being able to buy telegram stamps ( :blink: ), they'd have no way of knowing whether I privately sponsored the purchase of said stamps. So I don't think they could regulate it.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


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Lord Dominator
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Right-wing Utopia

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:40 pm

Jocospor wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:I was more speaking in regards to whether or not that'd count as assisting a DoS nation, as I'm reasonably sure Moderation/Admin have or could have ways to block that if they so desired.

OOC: Ah I see. But unless Moderation blocked everyone in CCD from being able to buy telegram stamps ( :blink: ), they'd have no way of knowing whether I privately sponsored the purchase of said stamps. So I don't think they could regulate it.

Credit card sorts of things presumably, unless we're talking going so far as to transfer money offline to get around that.

But to note, I'm not really speaking as to what Moderation could do regarding this hypothetical, just musings on the extent of the rules on interactions with DoS.

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Munkcestrian Republic
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Founded: May 01, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Munkcestrian Republic » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:31 am

I support this. People should not be persecuted for being who they are.
Last edited by Munkcestrian Republic on Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:27 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Kuriko wrote:As the WA Delegate of XKI I can not support this proposal. CCD has been nothing but a thorn in the side of the GP community since they came out of hibernation, and they will continue to be that way long after the liberation being repealed. They've poached from our region multiple times using WA tagged recruitment, and they've done nothing but use the WA as a recruitment device by brute forcing resolutions into vote. All this is doing right now is giving them attention, and I'd rather let them sit there in their isolation rather than give them even more face time.

Is using WA tagged recruitment something worth an offensive lib now?

Using WA tagged recruitment to lure new player into a region that will tarnish them for life? Yeah.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Youssath
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Youssath » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:49 pm

Sigh.

I didn't really want to come down here and get my hands all dirty and soaked with all of this political bull between bureaucrats and some self-proclaimed righteous thugs in the Security Council, but here I am - and there we are.

Honestly, I could have just stayed in The North Pacific - drafting world resolutions with a boring life there is and be a magically goody WA-compliant nation with no laws or constitution at all and its all thanks to some mailman who keeps sending me a telegram telling me that my national laws have been reworked once again, but there is no fun in that is there? Regardless, let's talk about the objectivity about the liberation of the CCD, most notably SCR #263.

Under SCR #263: Liberate Confederation Of Corrupt Dictators,
The Security Council,

  1. Disgusted by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictators' open embrace of fascists and self-identification as such;
  2. Observing without surprise that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators maintains diplomatic ties with several Nazi regions, including one previously liberated by this Assembly;
  3. Concerned that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators may serve to indoctrinate new nations into fascism and similar abhorrent ideologies;
  4. Exasperated by the region's previous attempt to commend themselves;
  5. Aware that Confederation of Corrupt Dictators currently has an Executive Founder;
  6. Hoping to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting;
This Security Council hereby liberates Confederation of Corrupt Dictators.

Clause 1: While it is an undeniable fact that the CCD has been known to openly embrace fascism and relates to it, such sentiments are not felt amongst the entire region here. If there is anything that I would describe the CCD, it is mostly "ultranationalistic" and "authoritarianism". True, their political standing may be far-right, but far-right is not equivalent to being fascist to speak since the fascist ideology incorporates anti-Semitism into practice, something that is evidently not practised here in the CCD.

Furthermore, the World Assembly is supposed to be an international representative body made up of diverse groups from different upbringings. While the mission of the World Assembly is to promote the furtherment of democracy, the CCD has, at the very minimum, established the Civil Congress to take the input of its members into consideration. While the whole system is still autocratic by nature, some semblance of democracy should still be considered and that the political identity of a region should not be solely judged by itself.

This is not mentioning the fact of how easy it is to register yourself as a region within NationStates, and within a few minutes, you got yourself a new region to call it home. If this new region were to embrace authoritarianism and nationalistic sentiments, is this new region destined to be disliked by the international community despite having no history or interactions with the other regional blocs of NationStates? Hell, what if a large region were to support authoritarianism movements because of the popular will of the people and its members? Is it justified to call for a "liberation" if the majority of its members support the current constitution of the region? And who is to play God and be righteous to determine whether democracy or autocracy is to be the progress of humanity?

Clause 2: The idea and concept that a liberation is warranted because a region has decided to exercise its sovereign rights in its self-determination to make their own friends is ridiculous, to say the least. It's like saying that because this kid made friends with all of the nerds in his class, he too should be labelled as a "nerd" as well and be bullied too. Does that seem logical and fair to say the least?

If maintaining good diplomatic relations in the spirit of comradeship and regional stability is to be seen as an excuse for liberation, then this very august council serves nothing more than being a bureaucratic waste of time except for the warmongers. Seriously, I believe that the majority of the regions here have established diplomatic relations with a few bad apples here, does that make them look inherently bad? CCD may be different than your average region out there, but if this sort of an excuse can be given as justification for a liberation, then everyone here is guilty as hell for making friends with an "evil wrongdoer".

Clause 3: Till this point, I have not seen any concrete or fool-proof evidence that evidently shows the mandatory indoctrination of its ideology or worse yet, fascism, into new nations and turning them into mindless servants. All nations are free to leave as they please, and unless the author can at least bring proof that the CCD is guilty of indoctrinating new nations into this hateful ideology, then I must say that this is rather a garbage attempt at trying to slander and make baseless conjecture of what the region actually is.

Clause 4: While this is absolutely true and I don't condone this type of behaviour, this reason alone does not serve enough justification as to why the CCD is deserving of a liberation. Self-commendations is annoying in nature, not to mention the badge hunting and all, but the nature of this offence is not serious enough to warrant the liberation of 700 nations, is it?

Clause 6: Once again, running off with that rhetoric that the CCD indoctrinate fascism to young nations and that it is harmful to the international community. The CCD only serves to represent the other portion, the next majority as so to speak, of the international community in the WA. We don't abduct or force nations in the CCD, they can come in as so as they please, see what they like and don't like, and decide for themselves whether they think this region represent their best interests. Our way of defining ourselves is simply our culture, and just as you are entitled to yours - so are we. Surprising, isn't it?

Overall, SCR #263 is a gross abuse of liberations and serves a dangerous precedent of eradicating minority regions in order to establish a unipolar world. While this does not mean that the CCD is clean and free from all of its crimes, the justifications given by SCR #263 is not sufficient and can be challenged as so as to speak. Hence, if this resolution gets to the Security Council, I shall be voting for this resolution.

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WayNeacTia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby WayNeacTia » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:07 am

Youssath wrote:Hence, if this resolution gets to the Security Council, I shall be voting for this resolution.


And thus any chance you had of passing any sort of resolution in the General Assembly just flew out the window and landed in the reflecting pool outside the defenestration window. :clap:
Sarcasm dispensed moderately.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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Jocospor
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Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:44 am

Wayneactia wrote:
Youssath wrote:Hence, if this resolution gets to the Security Council, I shall be voting for this resolution.


And thus any chance you had of passing any sort of resolution in the General Assembly just flew out the window and landed in the reflecting pool outside the defenestration window. :clap:

OOC: Honestly that's incredibly close minded and not really the way you should be treating emerging players.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


The Shadow Cult is rising...

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Lyrical International Brigade
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Founded: Mar 31, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Lyrical International Brigade » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:37 am

Youssath wrote: self-proclaimed righteous thugs in the Security Council


I'm, uh, unaware of anyone proclaiming themselves a "righteous thug," but I will certainly be watching out for this phrase and alignment in the future.

:)
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Tinhampton
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:07 am

Youssath wrote:...I shall be voting for this resolution.

Image
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Marxist Germany
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Ex-Nation

Postby Marxist Germany » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:22 am

Tinhampton wrote:
Youssath wrote:...I shall be voting for this resolution.

Image

OOC: Imagine using the century theme.
Author of GA#461, GA#470, GA#477, GA#481, GA#486 (co-author), and SC#295

Former delegate of The United Federations; citizen and former Senior Senator of 10000 Islands; 113th Knight of TITO

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Youssath
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Youssath » Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:35 am

Wayneactia wrote:And thus any chance you had of passing any sort of resolution in the General Assembly just flew out the window and landed in the reflecting pool outside the defenestration window. :clap:

Mhm, and what exact backing do you have to mandate for that?

I'm sorry, but this nation doesn't have to concern myself with the opinion of a sheep like you.
Jocospor wrote:OOC: Honestly that's incredibly close minded and not really the way you should be treating emerging players.

Leave him be with his ramblings. The Security Council is way more polarized than the General Assembly, and one must always be prepared to brace himself with the tyranny of the majority here. I quite enjoy myself more in the General Assembly because there is less politics there, and more actual humanitarian issues to solve. Regardless, he is still entitled to his own opinion, no matter how delusional and backwards it might be.

Hail the Confederation!
Lyrical International Brigade wrote:I'm, uh, unaware of anyone proclaiming themselves a "righteous thug," but I will certainly be watching out for this phrase and alignment in the future.

Did I create a new terminology to describe how the Security Council is working through my first post in the Security Council? Nice!
Tinhampton wrote:

It is for RP purposes, and I am doubtful many of us here are saints who comply with every single stats and laws in the World Assembly. If the furtherment of democracy is to be a goal, every single nation's "Political Freedom" is expected to be high. :^)

To all:
Also, I will welcome any opposition with the matters raised by my previous post here. Feel free to discredit the author all you want, but the point still stands since everyone has decided to conveniently leave out "the logical parts" and to attack the credibility of the author. :lol:
Last edited by Youssath on Sat Oct 05, 2019 11:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Johanneslanden
Secretary
 
Posts: 35
Founded: Oct 16, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Johanneslanden » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:33 pm

Youssath wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:

It is for RP purposes, and I am doubtful many of us here are saints who comply with every single stats and laws in the World Assembly. If the furtherment of democracy is to be a goal, every single nation's "Political Freedom" is expected to be high. :^)

I think he was pointing to your residing in the CCD, rather than your stats.

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Tinhampton
Postmaster-General
 
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Founded: Oct 05, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Tinhampton » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:00 pm

Johanneslanden wrote:
Youssath wrote:It is for RP purposes, and I am doubtful many of us here are saints who comply with every single stats and laws in the World Assembly. If the furtherment of democracy is to be a goal, every single nation's "Political Freedom" is expected to be high. :^)

I think he was pointing to your residing in the CCD, rather than your stats.

...is the correct answer!
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Authorships & co-authorships: SC#250, SC#251, Issue #1115, SC#267, GA#484, GA#491, GA#533, GA#540, GA#549, SC#356, GA#559, GA#562, GA#567, GA#578, SC#374, GA#582, SC#375, GA#589, GA#590, SC#382, SC#385*, GA#597, GA#607, SC#415, GA#647, GA#656, GA#664, GA#671, GA#674, GA#675, GA#677, GA#680, Issue #1580, GA#682, GA#683, GA#684, GA#692, GA#693, GA#715
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Youssath
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Youssath » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:10 pm

Tinhampton wrote:...is the correct answer!

Forgive me a bit here, but I feel that if you have to take a huge picture just to showcase a tiny section, then I think the problem might start with your photography skills. :P

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WayNeacTia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby WayNeacTia » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:48 pm

Youssath wrote:Leave him be with his ramblings. The Security Council is way more polarized than the General Assembly, and one must always be prepared to brace himself with the tyranny of the majority here. I quite enjoy myself more in the General Assembly because there is less politics there, and more actual humanitarian issues to solve. Regardless, he is still entitled to his own opinion, no matter how delusional and backwards it might be.


Yeah okay. :rofl: In the SC most of the big delegates vote politically. In the GA, WALL has a big voice. Last time I checked a couple of the WALL delegates aren't exactly chummy with the CCD. My friend if you plan on playing politics, you should probably learn to watch your flanks in the process. One might remember that blindsides tend to come out of nowhere when you least suspect it. So far the best I have seen from you is insults and a very obvious fishing line, thinly disguised as eruditic ramblings.

Youssath wrote:Hail the Confederation!


Don't say you weren't warned.
Sarcasm dispensed moderately.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac

wait

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Youssath
Envoy
 
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Youssath » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:39 pm

Wayneactia wrote:Yeah okay. :rofl: In the SC most of the big delegates vote politically. In the GA, WALL has a big voice. Last time I checked a couple of the WALL delegates aren't exactly chummy with the CCD. My friend if you plan on playing politics, you should probably learn to watch your flanks in the process. One might remember that blindsides tend to come out of nowhere when you least suspect it. So far the best I have seen from you is insults and a very obvious fishing line, thinly disguised as eruditic ramblings.

That's funny, because I just threw this statement as my fishing line out here:
Youssath wrote:Hail the Confederation!

...and it only caught just you only! My goodness!

So are we going to discuss the logical parts and events of this resolution, or we are going to just sit here trading insults at one another? Because quite frankly, the latter wastes my time - and no one has brought up a legal defence to my points yet.
Last edited by Youssath on Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Kaystein
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Posts: 653
Founded: Jan 12, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaystein » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:10 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Credit card sorts of things presumably, unless we're talking going so far as to transfer money offline to get around that.


"Paypal is a thing that exists. I think it does some stuff, but I'm not certain."

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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 984
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:46 pm

Kaystein wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Credit card sorts of things presumably, unless we're talking going so far as to transfer money offline to get around that.


"Paypal is a thing that exists. I think it does some stuff, but I'm not certain."

OOC: Yes. Also (though more a Luddite) I'm reasonably confident that the moderation team of a web browser game couldn't stop me making private internet transactions with various other accounts. Surely the only thing they could do would be to block the acceptance of payments for stamps from people they THOUGHT (emphasis) I was sponsoring offsite.

If someone (LD?) wants to elaborate a little more technically then please go ahead because I am genuinely interested.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


The Shadow Cult is rising...

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Bormiar
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1566
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:16 pm

Jocospor wrote:
Kaystein wrote:
"Paypal is a thing that exists. I think it does some stuff, but I'm not certain."

OOC: Yes. Also (though more a Luddite) I'm reasonably confident that the moderation team of a web browser game couldn't stop me making private internet transactions with various other accounts. Surely the only thing they could do would be to block the acceptance of payments for stamps from people they THOUGHT (emphasis) I was sponsoring offsite.

If someone (LD?) wants to elaborate a little more technically then please go ahead because I am genuinely interested.

If they suspected you were still funding it (for whatever reason), they could block all recruitment for CCD.

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Kaboomlandia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:17 pm

Jocospor wrote:
Kaystein wrote:
"Paypal is a thing that exists. I think it does some stuff, but I'm not certain."

OOC: Yes. Also (though more a Luddite) I'm reasonably confident that the moderation team of a web browser game couldn't stop me making private internet transactions with various other accounts. Surely the only thing they could do would be to block the acceptance of payments for stamps from people they THOUGHT (emphasis) I was sponsoring offsite.

If someone (LD?) wants to elaborate a little more technically then please go ahead because I am genuinely interested.

Look up Predator and reevaluate if you really want to go down that path if you ever got DOSed. Spoiler alert: it didn't end well for the region that was involved with it.

Literally outlining how exactly you'd circumvent your hypothetical DOS on a publicly available move isn't the smartest move, Joc.
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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:12 am

Let's get back to the topic of the proposed repeal of the liberation, shall we? :eyebrow:
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