NATION

PASSWORD

[DRAFT] Condemn Lily

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

[DRAFT] Condemn Lily

Postby Fahran » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:10 pm

Condemn Lily


The Security Council,

OBSERVING that Lily is a high-profile, aggressive raider organization that routinely raids hundreds of regions in a single night

ACKNOWLEDGING the destructive and demoralizing effects of raiding on budding regions even when no permanent occupation ensues

CONTEMPLATING the recent developments in the doctrinal underpinnings of raiding and defending that have led to a relative proliferation in tag-raiding and other forms of non-permanent occupation as well as an increase in collaboration between raiding organizations to sow further chaos and disorder across regions

NOTING that Lily has fostered ties to a multitude of raider-affiliated regions including Elparia, Voltarium, the Yeet Army, and multiple war zones and that it routinely harbors nations that have been condemned by this hallowed body or that have sown discord across multiple regions

CONSIDERING the numerous complaints and grievances expressed by often frustrated natives who have fallen victim to such raids and who seek succor from both defender organizations and this hallowed body

DECRYING the leading role Lily played in Operation Supernova, a series of raids that successfully targeted 848 regions over the course of a week beginning on the April 6th, 2018, and concluding on April 14th, 2018, including 407 regions in a single night

CASTIGATING Lily for a series of two-nation raids staged between June 30th, 2019, and July 4th, 2019, that targeted 378 regions in three separate operations, shattering the documented single-team record at that time before shattering the new record a few days later by targeting 143 region in a single night

DOCUMENTING that members of Lily have successfully infiltrated rival regions and raiding organizations with the explicit intention of expelling unprepared natives and taking those regions as trophies in the case of No Lily and The Grey Wolves GWS, the latter raid occurring on March 15th, 2019

CONCEDING that Lily has collaborated with defender organizations and natives at times such as in their systematic attempts to liberate regions defiled and besmirched by less savory raider organizations and in their cooperative military operations with Spear Danes and Artificial Solar Systems

APPLAUDING that Lily assisted in the liberation and re-founding of Lovecraft Country on 29th of March, 2019, at the request of its usurped delegate in an act of charity and magnanimity rare among raider organizations

CONCERNED, however, that Lily initially raided such a vulnerable region without any regard for the well-being of its community and then offered assistance in a public and propagandizing way

ASSERTING that even these ostensibly commendable deeds often further the achievement of ulterior motives and cultivate the public perception of duplicity and double-dealing that has hounded Lily since its foundation and rendered it a pariah among pariahs in the raiding community

BELIEVING that Lily's doctrine, modus operandi, and dubious achievements make it a unique and pernicious influence, not to mention a danger to a wide array of regions

Hereby CONDEMNS LILY.


I've seen a couple poorly-written attempts at a condemnation, but I thought I'd throw my weight behind a more well-written and comprehensive one in light of my recent departure from Lily on somewhat amicable terms and the ceasing of my personal involvement in any and all raiding activity. Given the current condemnations still on the books with the Security Council, I believe this is long overdue and more than appropriate. Please feel free to offer any and all suggestions since I'm a bit rusty on my proposal drafting skills.
Last edited by Fahran on Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Armaros
Diplomat
 
Posts: 587
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:34 pm

Aren’t you from Lily?

But nah. Tagging is harmless. Get some real raids going :p
An average Jo.
joWhatup#7411 on discord, if you ever need to contact me.
Corporal in The Black Hawks
Citizen in Lazarus
Wolf in Lone Wolves United
Citizen in The East Pacific

My opinions are solely mine. I do not speak for regions I'm involved with in any way.

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:44 pm

Armaros wrote:Aren’t you from Lily?

I'm on indefinite hiatus from raiding and NSGP more broadly, so that I can pursue the world-building/role-playing aspects of NS and begin participating more actively in the WA/SC. At the moment, any involvement I have with NSGP is likely to occur on the defender side of the line more so than on the raider side.

Armaros wrote:But nah. Tagging is harmless. Get some real raids going :p

My argument here is that tag-raiding is often extremely demoralizing for smaller regions, especially when a founder is inactive, and that the complaints that are often lodged with Lily and the organizations formed with the explicit objective of opposing Lily corroborate these assertions. Beyond that, the personal trophies held by members of Lily are quite extensive in spite of the organization's policy of not taking trophies in its own name and very few raiding organizations hold as many on an individual level. TBH is comparable, but no one else springs to mind, especially when we factor in the affiliated regions such as Elparia and The Yeet Army, which amassed probably two dozen trophy regions between them at one point. The dismantling of three anti-Lily organizations with founders sort of flies against the narrative that Lily's raids are always innocuous as well.
Last edited by Fahran on Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Wayneactia
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 380
Founded: Aug 01, 2014
Corporate Bordello

Postby Wayneactia » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:48 pm

Fahran wrote:My argument here is that tag-raiding is often extremely demoralizing for smaller regions


Really? Demoralizing? They tag raid. They don't occupy. Everything they do can be fixed in a few mouse clicks.

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:54 pm

Wayneactia wrote:Really? Demoralizing? They tag raid. They don't occupy. Everything they do can be fixed in a few mouse clicks.

If the region has an active founder who is knowledgeable about how to handle a tag raid, yes. The sheer number of tagged regions that are still drifting around seems to suggest that some genuine damage has been done and that a noticeable footprint has been left behind. As do the often visible frustration of natives.

Additionally, as I suggested previously, Lily does engage in re-found operations at times, including some re-found operations that were explicitly mentioned in this draft, and individual members affiliated with Lily hold a substantial number of trophy regions relative to the small size of their community.
Last edited by Fahran on Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
East Meranopirus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 395
Founded: Jul 28, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby East Meranopirus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:42 pm

NOTING that Lily has fostered ties to a multitude of raider-affiliated regions including Elparia, Voltarium, the Yeet Army

Uhh...what? I'm pretty sure Voltarium isn't “raider-affiliated”. Anyhow, they were never that big, so not sure why you included them there.
Elusively never IC in the WA forums. Also author of (probably soon to be repealed) GA Resolution #464

Co-Founder of The Democratic Union

Representing the Social Democratic Party as Albin Lundberg in NS Parliament. Fight for freedom, equality, and prosperity for the people!

User avatar
Fauxia
Senator
 
Posts: 4015
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fauxia » Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:44 pm

Arguably, small regions like tag raiding because they can then (ignorantly) brag about defeating a raid from evil scary raider region.

Alright, I feel like rambling because I want to be ignored like the big dummy I am :p

My formulation of commendations and condemnations is that they are different forms of recognizing players/regions that play the game very well. If you tag raid extremely well for an extended period of time, you deserve recognition, in my opinion, but because raiding of any form is sort of IC-evil, a condemnation is more fitting. So I think it would be fair to condemn a tag raiding region.

However, occupations ARE more destructive, which means the amount of occupations needed to deserve a condemnation is far less than tag raids, even accounting for the fact that tag raids outnumber occupations... a lot to 1. I’m not sure Lily actually rises above the bar.
Last edited by Fauxia on Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t pick a fight with me, I am proficient with the weapon to which all shall fall in NationStates... inactivity.
Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, Max still won't buy the mods elite ninja assassin squads to use, so... no such luck.

User avatar
Armaros
Diplomat
 
Posts: 587
Founded: Apr 06, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Armaros » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:50 pm

Fahran wrote:
Armaros wrote:Aren’t you from Lily?

I'm on indefinite hiatus from raiding and NSGP more broadly, so that I can pursue the world-building/role-playing aspects of NS and begin participating more actively in the WA/SC. At the moment, any involvement I have with NSGP is likely to occur on the defender side of the line more so than on the raider side.

Lily isn’t raider, either. Besides, you still hold the “Second constitution of Lily” dispatch.
Armaros wrote:But nah. Tagging is harmless. Get some real raids going :p

My argument here is that tag-raiding is often extremely demoralizing for smaller regions, especially when a founder is inactive, and that the complaints that are often lodged with Lily and the organizations formed with the explicit objective of opposing Lily corroborate these assertions. Beyond that, the personal trophies held by members of Lily are quite extensive in spite of the organization's policy of not taking trophies in its own name and very few raiding organizations hold as many on an individual level. TBH is comparable, but no one else springs to mind, especially when we factor in the affiliated regions such as Elparia and The Yeet Army, which amassed probably two dozen trophy regions between them at one point. The dismantling of three anti-Lily organizations with founders sort of flies against the narrative that Lily's raids are always innocuous as well.

I don’t care for tagging small, dead regions - it doesn’t do anything important, no matter how much you do it.

I really couldn’t care less about Lily members refounding regions as “personal trophies” - again, in the end, they affect no one, except for maybe that single native that CTEd in the region to let it be refounded in the first place.
An average Jo.
joWhatup#7411 on discord, if you ever need to contact me.
Corporal in The Black Hawks
Citizen in Lazarus
Wolf in Lone Wolves United
Citizen in The East Pacific

My opinions are solely mine. I do not speak for regions I'm involved with in any way.

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:26 am

East Meranopirus wrote:Uhh...what? I'm pretty sure Voltarium isn't “raider-affiliated”. Anyhow, they were never that big, so not sure why you included them there.

I mostly mentioned them because members of the region have allegedly participated in raids and/or associated with Lily. That said, this is a much fairer criticism than "tag-raiding doesn't count."
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:33 am

Fauxia wrote:Arguably, small regions like tag raiding because they can then (ignorantly) brag about defeating a raid from evil scary raider region.

Smaller raiding organizations often aren't capable of leading extended occupations of large, active regions. That said, the precise use of tag-raiding can yield some discernible results and I feel it is a bit odd to deny that, especially given that tagging/detagging caused a substantial rift between the leadership of Lily and TBH at one point. If it didn't matter at all within raiding communities, no rift would have opened up.

Fauxia wrote:Alright, I feel like rambling because I want to be ignored like the big dummy I am :p

Not at all. I welcome any and all criticism, and I want to discuss the arguments for and against this proposal before submitting it formally.

Fauxia wrote:My formulation of commendations and condemnations is that they are different forms of recognizing players/regions that play the game very well. If you tag raid extremely well for an extended period of time, you deserve recognition, in my opinion, but because raiding of any form is sort of IC-evil, a condemnation is more fitting. So I think it would be fair to condemn a tag raiding region.

However, occupations ARE more destructive, which means the amount of occupations needed to deserve a condemnation is far less than tag raids, even accounting for the fact that tag raids outnumber occupations... a lot to 1. I’m not sure Lily actually rises above the bar.

Lily is arguably one of the most outstanding tag-raiding organizations involved in NSGP. They hold the single-team record at the moment, as I mentioned in the resolution, having hit 143 regions in a single run and have a number of other noteworthy accomplishments. They have set multiple benchmarks with regard to tag-raiding, and have left a noticeable impact with regard to trophy-taking and re-founds as well - far in excess of their numbers. If tag-raiding can warrant a condemnation, no region deserves to represent that more than Lily.
Last edited by Fahran on Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:44 am

Armaros wrote:Lily isn’t raider, either. Besides, you still hold the “Second constitution of Lily” dispatch.

Lily is independent, but, in this particular resolution, I'm attempting to condemn them for tag-raiding and trophy-taking. I hold a wide array of dispatches that are no longer applicable. I will point out, however, that this is explicitly not a self-condemnation. I have severed all formal ties with Lily and have no intention of rejoining NSGP at any time. The only exceptions that might be made are for defenses in regions where I have history.

Armaros wrote:I don’t care for tagging small, dead regions - it doesn’t do anything important, no matter how much you do it.

If the regions were completely dead, there wouldn't be hundreds of extant tags still floating about. And, as I've stated previously, Lily's tag-raids are indiscriminate and have prompted quite a few complaints from natives. They haven't struck many massive regions, but that doesn't mean there isn't a cumulative impact of striking a massive number of small regions. Beyond that, we can dispense with the notion that Lily's actions are inconsequential given that TBH and Libcord have both been impacted by them to some extent.

Armaros wrote:I really couldn’t care less about Lily members refounding regions as “personal trophies” - again, in the end, they affect no one, except for maybe that single native that CTEd in the region to let it be refounded in the first place.

I don't think you're familiar with the re-founds in question. They were not the result of a native CTE-ing, but rather expulsions by a group of three to five raiders in most instances. These often involved three or four natives who were issue players. This required a degree of vigilance and discretion, especially in light of the manpower shortages, and often meant addressing defender organizations. In some instances, SD or ASS beat the raiders to the refound.
Last edited by Fahran on Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Bhang Bhang Duc
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1853
Founded: Dec 17, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:21 pm

Fahran wrote:
The Security Council,

OBSERVING that Lily is a high-profile, aggressive raider organization that routinely raids hundreds of regions in a single night

ACKNOWLEDGING the destructive and demoralizing effects of raiding on budding regions even when no permanent occupation ensues

So tag raiding. Annoying yes, condemnable no.

Fahran wrote:CONTEMPLATING the recent developments in the doctrinal underpinnings of raiding and defending that have led to a relative proliferation in tag-raiding and other forms of non-permanent occupation as well as an increase in collaboration between raiding organizations to sow further chaos and disorder across regions

Filler.

Fahran wrote:NOTING that Lily has fostered ties to a multitude of raider-affiliated regions including Elparia, Voltarium, the Yeet Army, and multiple war zones and that it routinely harbors nations that have been condemned by this hallowed body or that have sown discord across multiple regions

Those regions you mention would barely get a tick over on the raider detector meter. Very minor organisations. And what condemned nations does Lily harbour - names please.

Fahran wrote:CONSIDERING the numerous complaints and grievances expressed by often frustrated natives who have fallen victim to such raids and who seek succor from both defender organizations and this hallowed body

This hallowed body doesn't do succour. Condemn, commends and liberates is about the best it can do. And you've used "hallowed body" twice now two clauses in succession.

Fahran wrote:DECRYING the leading role Lily played in Operation Supernova, a series of raids that successfully targeted 848 regions over the course of a week beginning on the April 6th, 2018, and concluding on April 14th, 2018, including 407 regions in a single night

CASTIGATING Lily for a series of two-nation raids staged between June 30th, 2019, and July 4th, 2019, that targeted 378 regions in three separate operations, shattering the documented single-team record at that time before shattering the new record a few days later by targeting 143 region in a single night

Just rehashing what's been reported in other condemnation attempts. Nothing new here.

Fahran wrote:DOCUMENTING that members of Lily have successfully infiltrated rival regions and raiding organizations with the explicit intention of expelling unprepared natives and taking those regions as trophies in the case of No Lily and The Grey Wolves GWS, the latter raid occurring on March 15th, 2019

Fair enough that's new, but it's what raiders do. And only two trophy regions?

Fahran wrote:CONCEDING that Lily has collaborated with defender organizations and natives at times such as in their systematic attempts to liberate regions defiled and besmirched by less savory raider organizations and in their cooperative military operations with Spear Danes and Artificial Solar Systems

APPLAUDING that Lily assisted in the liberation and re-founding of Lovecraft Country on 29th of March, 2019, at the request of its usurped delegate in an act of charity and magnanimity rare among raider organizations

You see this takes away from the picture you're trying to paint of an evil raider organisation.

Fahran wrote:CONCERNED, however, that Lily initially raided such a vulnerable region without any regard for the well-being of its community and then offered assistance in a public and propagandizing way

ASSERTING that even these ostensibly commendable deeds often further the achievement of ulterior motives and cultivate the public perception of duplicity and double-dealing that has hounded Lily since its foundation and rendered it a pariah among pariahs in the raiding community

You can't have it both ways and I'd hardly say that that Lily is a pariah.

Fahran wrote:BELIEVING that Lily's doctrine, modus operandi, and dubious achievements make it a unique and pernicious influence, not to mention a danger to a wide array of regions

Like many other raider organisations - nothing unique about Lily.

Fahran wrote:Hereby CONDEMNS LILY.


Fahran wrote:I've seen a couple poorly-written attempts at a condemnation, but I thought I'd throw my weight behind a more well-written and comprehensive one in light of my recent departure from Lily on somewhat amicable terms and the ceasing of my personal involvement in any and all raiding activity. Given the current condemnations still on the books with the Security Council, I believe this is long overdue and more than appropriate. Please feel free to offer any and all suggestions since I'm a bit rusty on my proposal drafting skills.

While I agree your draft is more literate than some of the attempts this forum has seen, it's not necessarily better. The tag records have been covered before and you bring very little new to the dossier on Lily's raiding activities.

The work Lily has done with defender groups is interesting and according to you commendable (but not Commendable). This is where your draft fails. In my opinion to be Condemned a nation or region has to have always played the part of the black hats, no white hat activity allowed. What you've managed to do is make Lily look well.... beige.
Former Delegate and Guardian of The West Pacific. TWP's Former Minister for World Assembly Affairs

The West Pacific's Official Welshman, Astronomer and Old Fart

Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.

User avatar
Marxist Germany
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1073
Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:52 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:...according to you commendable (but not Commendable)...

:eyebrow:
Country represents RL views mostly. Not Marxist anymore.
Author of GA#461

Ex-delegate of The United Federations; citizen of 10000 Islands | Gaming User#0721(Discord)
RP name: Germany
The National Factbook (WIP)
Ambassador Klaus Schmidt
Political Compass
PolitiStates Result
Pro:Laissez-faire, Nationalism, Guns, Free speech, Christianity, Same-sex marriage, United Ireland.
Anti:Extreme Progressivism, Abortion, Socialism, Interventionism, Mass-migration.
A high school student aged 15 from Ireland, living in Co. Dublin. Interested in politics, gaming, and history.

User avatar
Praeceps
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 116
Founded: Feb 08, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:59 pm

I am uncomfortable with the author's prior relationship with Lily. I understand you have moved on—it leaves a bad taste in my mouth though.

Marxist Germany wrote:
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:...according to you commendable (but not Commendable)...

:eyebrow:


BBD is saying that their actions are good, but not good enough to be worthy of a Commendation, hence the difference in capitalization.

EDIT: I do support a condemnation in theory for LILY.
Last edited by Praeceps on Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.

User avatar
United Massachusetts
Minister
 
Posts: 2447
Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:39 pm

The whole hostility to condemning tag raiders is kind of elitist, to my eyes

If Lily does something (tag raiding) tremendously and on such a large scale, we should condemn them. Easy enough.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

Deputy Outreach Minister, The Rejected Realms
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

President, Right to Life
Author/Co-author: 7 GA, 2 SC resolutions

Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
Stat Crux dum volvitur orbis
The Cross stands steady, though the Earth is turning


User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:So tag raiding. Annoying yes, condemnable no.

I mean... That's one position to take, but I'm not certain it logically follows.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Filler.

I'll remove that section.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Those regions you mention would barely get a tick over on the raider detector meter. Very minor organisations. And what condemned nations does Lily harbour - names please.

That's fair. Lily is good deal more well known than its affiliates. Several members of Lily were affiliated with Canterlot. The second clause of the repeal of said condemnation states that raiding fifty regions was not a notable accomplishment. I'm inclined to think that raiding triple that number in a single night and raiding thousands (I'd estimate well over 10,000 regions in total) of regions in total more than warrant a condemnation. In essence, Lily has an active community that has had an impact on NSGP and I believe it is important to highlight that.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:This hallowed body doesn't do succour. Condemn, commends and liberates is about the best it can do. And you've used "hallowed body" twice now two clauses in succession.

Those constitute some form of relief from the vile banditry of groups like Lily. :p

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Just rehashing what's been reported in other condemnation attempts. Nothing new here.

The single-team record was set last month. And previous condemnation attempts held inaccurate and poorly worded information and were drawn up with the explicit intention of fostering regional enmities. If the position of the Security Council is that tag-raiding should never be a factor in weighing a condemnation, then, by all means, I'd expect this resolution to face a weighty defeat, but, if tag-raiding can ever be weighed, Lily undeniably deserves a condemnation. They're simply the best (worst?) at tag-raiding and have been for quite awhile.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:[region-tag=][/region-tag]Fair enough that's new, but it's what raiders do. And only two trophy regions?

Two high-profile re-founds. I could perhaps list the personal and constituent region trophies held over the course of Lily's time in NSGP. I believe Elparia, a group of baby raiders, took ten or so. The Yeet Army took a similar number. When we pool all of those regions together, the list becomes quite extensive. I think the one objection there would be that the regions might be too small, but, again, the cumulative impact of tagging and taking so many regions should be considered.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:You see this takes away from the picture you're trying to paint of an evil raider organisation.

That's valid, but I wanted to attempt to counter the "they're defenders" argument before it was raised.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:You can't have it both ways and I'd hardly say that that Lily is a pariah.

Again, I'm attempting to parry an argument that will likely be made. And a good many natives will undoubtedly disagree with that sentiment - as may at least one member of TBH.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:Like many other raider organisations - nothing unique about Lily.

I don't think most raiders play on both sides of the game.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:While I agree your draft is more literate than some of the attempts this forum has seen, it's not necessarily better. The tag records have been covered before and you bring very little new to the dossier on Lily's raiding activities.

The previous attempts do not seem to have been genuinely considered in light of the bad writing, and, as I specified before, my argument here is essentially that Lily's tag-raiding has had more of an impact on NSGP than any other organization's tag-raiding. The quibble seems to be whether or not tag-raiding itself merits condemnation. Hence my mention of the two high-profile re-founds and the re-founds of constituent regions.

Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:The work Lily has done with defender groups is interesting and according to you commendable (but not Commendable). This is where your draft fails. In my opinion to be Condemned a nation or region has to have always played the part of the black hats, no white hat activity allowed. What you've managed to do is make Lily look well.... beige.

I'm leaning into the "duplicitous" reputation Lily seems to have in some raiding circles, but I don't believe any region is without moral nuance except perhaps Neo-Nazi regions. There's also a distinction to be made between IC and OOC here. Lily cooperating with defenders and raiders both is commendable because it offers the community something new and substantive, but Lily raiding things is a "bad" behavior nonetheless.
Last edited by Fahran on Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:21 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:The whole hostility to condemning tag raiders is kind of elitist, to my eyes

If Lily does something (tag raiding) tremendously and on such a large scale, we should condemn them. Easy enough.

I tend to agree on both points. I think a proper discussion on a condemnation is long overdue, but, again, I do think there is a lot of hostility towards condemning tag-raiding as a practice. My principal reason for even attempting it here is because Lily's tag-raiding sets a benchmark and has discernibly impacted NSGP.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Praeceps wrote:I am uncomfortable with the author's prior relationship with Lily. I understand you have moved on—it leaves a bad taste in my mouth though.

That's fair, but, again, I don't really see anyone making an effort to write a good resolution for it at the moment. We've mostly gotten drafts from natives who didn't understand the SC and rival raider organizations trying to drum up recruitment. My principal argument here is that it's beyond deserved despite the poor drafts that have occurred in the past.

Praeceps wrote:EDIT: I do support a condemnation in theory for LILY.

Any pointers beyond changing the author? :p
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Eumaeus
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 159
Founded: Jan 27, 2018
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Eumaeus » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:41 pm

Fahran wrote:The Security Council,

OBSERVING that Lily is an aggressive, high-profile raider organization that routinely raids hundreds of regions in a single night

I think it sounds much better if the those adjectives are reversed. Does Lily not raid at the minor update? Otherwise this "single night" thing a weird way to phrase that. I would say something along the lines of "conducts tag runs in which hundreds of regions are hit". Lastly: blech, no punctuation at the end? I mean, you can do it, but in my professional opinion: it's icky.
ACKNOWLEDGING the destructive and demoralizing effects of raiding on budding regions even when no permanent occupation ensues

You should probably qualify this statement with some sort of overarching argument. Why is tag raiding detrimental enough to warrant a Condemnation without additional offenses?
CONTEMPLATING the recent developments in the doctrinal underpinnings of raiding and defending that have led to a relative proliferation in tag-raiding and other forms of non-permanent occupation as well as an increase in collaboration between raiding organizations to sow further chaos and disorder across regions

This has nothing to do with defending, so mentioning it is irrelevant.
NOTING that Lily routinely harbors nations that have been condemned by this hallowed body or that have sown discord across multiple regions and has fostered ties to a multitude of raider-affiliated regions including Elparia, Voltarium, the Yeet Army, and multiple war zones
Pro-tip: try to shunt lists off to the end of a clause whenever possible, because they can sometimes feel like interruptions. Ditto on what BBD said, these regions are barely raider leaning, and are not doing anything to help you. Also, what's wrong with warzones?
CONSIDERING the numerous complaints and grievances expressed by often frustrated natives who have fallen victim to such raids and who seek succor from both defender organizations and this hallowed body

DECRYING the leading role Lily played in Operation Supernova, a series of raids that successfully targeted 848 regions over the course of a week beginning on the April 6th, 2018, and concluding on April 14th, 2018, including 407 regions in a single night

CASTIGATING Lily for a series of two-nation raids staged between June 30th, 2019, and July 4th, 2019, that targeted 378 regions in three separate operations, shattering the documented single-team record at that time before shattering the new record a few days later by targeting 143 region in a single night

DOCUMENTING that members of Lily have successfully infiltrated rival regions and raiding organizations with the explicit intention of expelling unprepared natives and taking those regions as trophies in the case of No Lily and The Grey Wolves GWS, the latter raid occurring on March 15th, 2019

I feel like raiders attacking other raiders would be considered, at least by most people, to be the opposite of condemnable.
CONCEDING that Lily has collaborated with defender organizations and natives at times such as in their systematic attempts to liberate regions defiled and besmirched by less savory raider organizations and in their cooperative military operations with Spear Danes and Artificial Solar Systems

Aren't SD and ASS just jump points? Or are they their own organizations now? I haven't been paying much attention to the state of the defender community since my return.
APPLAUDING that Lily assisted in the liberation and re-founding of Lovecraft Country on 29th of March, 2019, at the request of its usurped delegate in an act of charity and magnanimity rare among raider organizations


CONCERNED, however, that Lily initially raided such a vulnerable region without any regard for the well-being of its community and then offered assistance in a public and propagandizing way[/quote]
This is a good argument not to commend Lily, but a weak argument to condemn it.
ASSERTING that even these ostensibly commendable deeds often further the achievement of ulterior motives and cultivate the public perception of duplicity and double-dealing that has hounded Lily since its foundation and rendered it a pariah among pariahs in the raiding community

Honestly, objective, rational proposal-reading me feels kind of bad for Lily based off of this clause. They sound lonely. :(
BELIEVING that Lily's doctrine, modus operandi, and dubious achievements make it a unique and pernicious influence, not to mention a danger to a wide array of regions

Hereby CONDEMNS LILY.

So this is a fairly transparent "give'em a shiny badge" condemnation, which to be clear is not at all bad. Raiders who are good at raiding get condemnations as recognition for their accomplishments, and writing a proposal with the primary purpose being recognition is perfectly acceptable. The problem here is that it is written by a former member of the region, and not one who seems to harbor much animosity towards them. Regardless of the author's current NSGP status, this is riding the line between 'written by an insider' and 'self condemnation' a bit too far to the latter's side for my tastes.

Regarding the proposal itself, there are a few problems, primarily the fact that five clauses (8-12) are dedicated to arguments that would seem at home in a repeal of a condemnation. I understand that you're attempting to spin it as 'Lily does do some good things but they are often motivated by selfish goals' however you don't provide enough tangible examples of what Lily has actually gotten out of these behaviors. Additionally, I think the order in which you cover your broad arguments is not helping. The proposal currently ends with a discussion of some of the less evil things Lily has done, which is not where you want your reader to leave off when your goal is to convince them Lily ought to be condemned. If you insist on keeping the 'Lily does do some good things but they are often motivated by selfish goals' argument, I would place it near the beginning and end with the descriptions of the objectively bad things they do.

Individually, I think the clauses are well written, but the structure of the proposal is where the problems lie for me.

I wrote a whole thing about how I don't think tag raiding alone merits condemnation, but then I was interrupted by an hour and a half flight with no wifi. During the flight I thought a bit on it, and I decided that Lily is such an outlier in regards to the level of skill and number of tags they hit that my primary concern (the precedent this would set) doesn't seem as bad as I was initially thinking. I'm not going to bother posting what I wrote before my flight, but it ended with the line "I'm willing to be convinced" and I think I have been. If I didn't have a heaping pile of Real Life to deal with the next few weeks I would offer to take this up in the author's place if they wished to avoid the selfie accusations (which btw are the only reason I am not supporting this proposal), but if someone else (unconnected to either Lily or the author) were to take over and list the current author as a co-author I would be willing to support. With revisions, of course.
\▼/We Are Not the NSA\▼/

Raiding HistorySecurity CouncilDear NativesTWP Raid

"You ask my honorable name? My name is Nohbdy:
mother, father, and friends, everyone calls me Nohbdy."

User avatar
Fahran
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:11 am

Eumaeus wrote:I wrote a whole thing about how I don't think tag raiding alone merits condemnation, but then I was interrupted by an hour and a half flight with no wifi. During the flight I thought a bit on it, and I decided that Lily is such an outlier in regards to the level of skill and number of tags they hit that my primary concern (the precedent this would set) doesn't seem as bad as I was initially thinking. I'm not going to bother posting what I wrote before my flight, but it ended with the line "I'm willing to be convinced" and I think I have been. If I didn't have a heaping pile of Real Life to deal with the next few weeks I would offer to take this up in the author's place if they wished to avoid the selfie accusations (which btw are the only reason I am not supporting this proposal), but if someone else (unconnected to either Lily or the author) were to take over and list the current author as a co-author I would be willing to support. With revisions, of course.

I don't know how I can express my gratitude for such an insightful critique. I would be more than willing to allow a more senior participant in the SC to assume authorship of this resolution since my objective here is to see Lily condemned rather than to douse myself in the glory of passing a resolution or to garner any praise for myself. As I have stated, I believe that a condemnation is more than deserved given the range, scope, and skill involved in Lily's activities and the impact the region/organization has made on NSGP. Beyond that, I'll consider the revisions you have suggested and write up a second draft. Thank you so much for the sound counsel.
The Claw is the LAW!!!

User avatar
Praeceps
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 116
Founded: Feb 08, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Praeceps » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:30 pm

Fahran wrote:
Praeceps wrote:I am uncomfortable with the author's prior relationship with Lily. I understand you have moved on—it leaves a bad taste in my mouth though.

That's fair, but, again, I don't really see anyone making an effort to write a good resolution for it at the moment. We've mostly gotten drafts from natives who didn't understand the SC and rival raider organizations trying to drum up recruitment. My principal argument here is that it's beyond deserved despite the poor drafts that have occurred in the past.

Praeceps wrote:EDIT: I do support a condemnation in theory for LILY.

Any pointers beyond changing the author? :p

Beyond deserved is irrelevant when it comes to the author. :P

I do agree with Eumaeus's suggestion regarding the author.

The only one content I think is worth commenting on the "foster[ing] ties to a multitude of raider-affiliated regions including Elparia, Voltarium, the Yeet Army, and multiple war zones". I don't believe it should be included in the condemnation as those regions are not condemnable, nor is having relations with them condemnable. I don't particularly like how they are specifically named.

Not many pointers as it is well done imo.
Apparently simultaneously a Ravenclaw puppet, a NPO plant, and a Warden spy. I had no idea I was that good. Depending on who you ask, my aliases include Krulltopia.


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Security Council

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Advertisement

Remove ads