[DISCARDED] Repeal "Condemn Vandoosa"

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

The Security Council,

Recalling the troubled past of the former nation Vandoosa, who is now known as Vando0sa, as an era of chaos and treachery; a world influenced by Predator,

Acknowledging Predator as an illegal raiding tool that was created and distributed by the now-annihilated General Halcones during The Black Riders (TBR), DEN, and Cimmeria's latter years,

Saddened that Vandoosa, an up-and-coming raider at the time, used the illegal Predator tool alongside their fellow DEN and TBR soldiers to be a more successful and agile raider,

Remembering April 2, 2016, the day Vandoosa and multiple other nations and regions were punished for their usages of Predator; this resulted in Vandoosa being wiped off of the world's surface and the further usage of their successor, Vando0sa,

Aware that Vandoosa views their condemnation as a prestigious award and a badge of honor,

Also believing in addition to using Predator, that SC#188 is structurally unsound and neglects to mention condemnation-worthy assets while completely ignoring the positive impact that Vandoosa has had on Yggdrasil as its Delegate on multiple occasions,

Hereby repeals Security Council Resolution #188, "Condemn Vandoosa".

As much as I like Vandy, it needed to be done. All Predator-assisted condemnations were repealed around two years ago except for this one. It'd be unfair to allow this one to sit on the shelf, untouched. Please leave your feedback.

[Vando0sa]

It's about time my innocence is noticed! My condemnation must be repealed as my flag says.



Might need some more tweaking and editing though.. not sure if you are allowed to mention Predator in it or not..

[Armaros]

You used “who” in the first part.

Aside from that, I’m against: if Predator was the reason this should be repealed, someone who was there would have done it back then. Condemn Gest, Condemn General Halcones and Condemn Kknight were all repealed because of Predator not too long after Predator, and the fact that people didn’t feel Condemn Vandoosa needed to be repealed back then makes me think Predator really isn’t a good reason to repeal it now, either.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

You used “who” in the first part.

SC rules say that is poor grammar rather than an R4 violation.

Going to have a think about this one Manson, going to do a bit more research before I comment on the draft.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I've thought about this a lot and I'm not in favor. The other condemnations were repealed because they were the leadership figures most responsible for Predator. I have no interest in repealing Condemn Vandoosa, Condemn Reventus Koth, Condemn The Black Hawks, etc. based on mere use of Predator. A higher degree of culpability needs to exist for me to want to take away a badge.

Good effort though. I'm just not feeling it.

[Fushiya]

I'm okay with this.

[Lord Dominator]

There are far more worthy claims about how important Vandy's actual career is/was than mere usage of Predator.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

There are far more worthy claims about how important Vandy's actual career is/was than mere usage of Predator.

Sure. Care to explain your points, then?

[Eumaeus]

I'm kind of on the fence about this. On the one hand, after rereading the condemnation itself I'm not particularly impressed by it. Briefly looking it over I immediately found two instances of the same typo (a space before a comma; " , "), not to mention the fact that it talks about how SC #127 condemned "the Black Riders" instead of "the Black Riders". Also, "their founders evildoings" should be "their founder's evildoings". Not going to go any deeper than that, but suffice to say it is not a well-written resolution.

However, on the other hand I think that Vandy is in a very different position than the other Predator users whose condemnations were repealed. There were a few different levels of offense in the Predator scandal, and Vandy falls somewhere in the lesser categories. As Cormac said, the resolutions you cite as precedent were about individuals involved in the leadership of regions that disseminated Predator, whereas Vandy was only an officer in those regions.

There are much better arguments to be made for repealing SC #188, as exemplified in this draft that Tim-Opolis wrote just before the Predator Scandal happened. To address what Armaros said, after rereading this thread, it seems like everyone was on board but the draft just fell through the cracks.

I've found that I'm more likely to keep something going if I post it than if I just leave it in a google doc (no comment on repeal condemn vandoosa >.> <.<)

Anyways, here's my feedback:

The Security Council,

Recalling the troubled past of the former nation Vandoosa, who is now known as Vando0sa, as an era of chaos and treachery: a world influenced by Predator,

This clause is bad for a number of different reasons, but summed up we can just say that it sounds weird as hell when read aloud. Part of the problem is that if everything after "as an era..." were removed the clause would already be a complete thought, and in fact would be a common turn of phrase. The addition of the extra information is a bit jarring, and to be honest a bit melodramatic. Additionally, that is a misuse of a semicolon. Semicolons separate two complete thoughts within the same sentence, and "a world influenced by Predator" is an incomplete thought.

Acknowledging Predator as an illegal raiding tool that was created and distributed by the now-annihilated General Halcones during The Black Riders (TBR), DEN, and Cimmeria's latter years,

Wasn't it for most of Cimmeria's years? Also, you mention TBR exactly twice, so I don't see why you need to use the acronym instead of just spelling out the full name.

Saddened that Vandoosa, an up-and-coming raider at the time, used the illegal Predator tool alongside their fellow TBR and DEN soldiers to be a more successful and agile raider,

Since Vandy used Predator with TBR before doing so with DEN it makes more sense to reverse the order in which they are mentioned. This also places (or at least implies) way more personal responsibility on Vandy than is necessary. Predator was a commonly used tool in TBR and DEN, which is important context for Vandoosa's use of it. The way this clause is written makes it sound like he made a conscious decision to cheat.

Remembering April 2, 2016, as the day multiple nations and regions were punished for their usage of Predator; these punishments resulted in Vandoosa being wiped from the surface of the world, and led to their reincarnation as Vando0sa,

I accidentally ended up rewriting most of this clause.

Aware that Vandoosa views their condemnation as a prestigious award and a badge of honor,

*Insert obligatory whining about what a lame argument this is here*

Also believing in addition to using Predator, that SC#188 is structurally unsound and neglects to mention condemnation-worthy assets while completely ignoring the positive impact that Vandoosa has had on Yggdrasil as its Delegate on multiple occasions,

So... you're clearly aware that there are other arguments, but have neglected to include them beyond a single clause that mentions but does not cover three separate arguments. This clause exemplifies why I do not particularly like this draft: the Predator argument, as multiple people have now pointed out, does not minimize Vandoosa's actions in the same manner that it does Halcones' or Gest's or Kknight's, yet it is this singular argument that makes up a majority of the draft. I am not strictly against repealing this condemnation, but I think the argument in this draft is inadequate.

Sure. Care to explain your points, then?

SC #188 is poorly written, which is what I assume you meant by "structurally unsound". See my criticisms from the beginning of this post.

You say it neglects to mention multiple condemnation-worthy factors. Some examples would likely make the draft more persuasive.

Vandoosa is well-liked and has made a positive impact in Yggdrasil, which is completely ignored in the condemnation.

The author of SC #188 clearly did not understand the concept of founder supremacy, and as a result SC #188 condemns vandoosa partially because he was a neglectful founder. Most people agree that a regional founder has the final say in what happens in the regions they create, and the idea of condemning a founder for the manner in which they run their region is not a precedent most people would want on the books, especially because said manner in this case is just being a hands-off leader.

The last three clauses are now completely irrelevant, because A) Glorious Nations of Iwaku is password protected and thus people do not need a warning before entering it and B) five years later The Glorious Nations of Iwaku is currently 36th in the world, and the griping about how Vandy's actions will negatively impact his region are counteracted by the continued success of GNI's successor region.

There are more (again, check out Tim's draft) but these are the ones I find most convincing.

[Vando0sa]

Actually I used Predator right at the end of DEN. Never touched it all the way up to that January right before DEN was purged. I was afraid to try it in case it was illegal. But I got a little to smug and decided to finally try it anyway. I knew Halcones was still working on it even though he was DoS but trusted him not to make it illegal. Not my smartest choice.

As for Cimmeria I was technically co-founder with Cora.

The original condemnation only passed because I was a huge celebrity tag raider back in 2015-2016. I pointed and tagged like ten thousand random regions during that time so a loooooot of natives didn't like me.

I even raided a mods region! Luna Amore was a mod at the time!

[Infinite Miracles]

Aware that Vandoosa views their condemnation as a prestigious award and a badge of honor,

Some players think raiders see condemnations as a badge of honour and for that reason don't like the SC, and is there any proof Vando0sa views it as a award?

[United Massachusetts]

Considering that the nation Vandoosa was condemned for activities that involve Predator, and that Vando0sa is their main now, would it not be fair to transfer the condemnation to the active account in acknowledgement of Vandy's non-Predator activities?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Considering that the nation Vandoosa was condemned for activities that involve Predator, and that Vando0sa is their main now, would it not be fair to transfer the condemnation to the active account in acknowledgement of Vandy's non-Predator activities?

Seems like excessive effort for no real purpose.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Considering that the nation Vandoosa was condemned for activities that involve Predator, and that Vando0sa is their main now, would it not be fair to transfer the condemnation to the active account in acknowledgement of Vandy's non-Predator activities?

Seems like excessive effort for no real purpose.

You just described NationStates gameplay.

[Lord Dominator]

Seems like excessive effort for no real purpose.

You just described NationStates gameplay.

False, NS Gameplay has purpose.

That purpose is annoying everyone in the vicinity.

[BlackLight Covenant]

Aware that Vandoosa views their condemnation as a prestigious award and a badge of honor,

Some players think raiders see condemnations as a badge of honour and for that reason don't like the SC, and is there any proof Vando0sa views it as a award?

Whether Van actually views it as a reward is something I'm not entirely certain about, but he certainly doesn't view it like a punishment for what I've seen in the last three years or so.

[Vando0sa]

Some players think raiders see condemnations as a badge of honour and for that reason don't like the SC, and is there any proof Vando0sa views it as a award?

Whether Van actually views it as a reward is something I'm not entirely certain about, but he certainly doesn't view it like a punishment for what I've seen in the last three years or so.

It got deleted along with my main nation so I technically don't even have it anymore.. not sure if I can count a badge I no longer have as a badge of honor or shame...

[General Knot]

As much as I like Vandy, it needed to be done. All Predator-assisted condemnations were repealed around two years ago except for this one. It'd be unfair to allow this one to sit on the shelf, untouched. Please leave your feedback.

It's neat that you hang so tightly to a past of which you were not a part of. It's been over three years, but it feels like yesterday with how much people continue talking about the DEN. May I interest you in a read then? We will always need people like you to keep an irrelevant DEN relevant.

[BlackLight Covenant]

Whether Van actually views it as a reward is something I'm not entirely certain about, but he certainly doesn't view it like a punishment for what I've seen in the last three years or so.

It got deleted along with my main nation so I technically don't even have it anymore.. not sure if I can count a badge I no longer have as a badge of honor or shame...

True, true, but it was still a badge of something handed out to you, so I guess you can claim it as an euh...honorary badge of something. Yeeeaaah, let's go with that.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Meh, I'm gonna abandon this. Tim's draft is most definitely better and should go up to vote!

[Vando0sa]

Meh, I'm gonna abandon this. Tim's draft is most definitely better and should go up to vote!

Good luck with that. Been waiting 3 years now! Heck 3 and a half!