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Why Does NS Condemn Fascist Nations/Regions?

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North Saitama
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Founded: Jul 04, 2017
Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Wed May 01, 2019 8:05 pm

While we're on the subject, I do believe that "liberating" Fascist regions is unethical, as is raiding them unprovoked. IC, it amounts to a war of aggression, which is, in fact, a war crime.

Which is also why I am so opposed to how organisations like the MT Army are actually commended for what are IC war crimes, Fascist or not. I do not believe that war crimes should be rewarded and encouraged, no matter who the target is.
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Nakena
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Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Wed May 01, 2019 8:09 pm

Long standing tradition. I believe it started with Nazi Europe being the primary villain of all NS, but theres some history affecinados who can tell you better than me.

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Risottia
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Founded: Sep 05, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Risottia » Wed May 01, 2019 9:59 pm

Woods Is Back wrote:It has proved to be a favorite of the SC to condemn fascist nations/regions. But why? All we are doing is condemning them based on their beliefs- which is just oppressing them. I understand that many of these nations/regions oppress people, take advantage of others, and ruin lives- but isn't that we are doing when we shame them? We usually say that we care for others, but it doesn't seem like we care about them when we are subjecting people to shame based on their beliefs. In my opinion, this should stop, because those fascists could use the same tactics we are using to fight them to retaliate at us, and we all have plenty of dirt on us.

My question to you NS is what do you think, should we continue to condemn people based on their beliefs, or should it stop?

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USS Monitor
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Founded: Jul 01, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby USS Monitor » Wed May 01, 2019 10:07 pm

Woods Is Back wrote:In my opinion, this should stop, because those fascists could use the same tactics we are using to fight them to retaliate at us, and we all have plenty of dirt on us.


If the worst thing fascists did was write SC condemnations, fascism wouldn't be taboo.
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu May 02, 2019 1:15 am

Two reasons.

Firstly, fascism itself is a really shit ideology and people don't like it much.

Secondly, fascist regions and players are much, much more likely to spread and post racist, homophobic and sexist content. Again, people don't like that much.
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Marxist Germany
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Founded: Jun 07, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Marxist Germany » Thu May 02, 2019 2:02 pm

Risottia wrote:
Woods Is Back wrote:It has proved to be a favorite of the SC to condemn fascist nations/regions. But why? All we are doing is condemning them based on their beliefs- which is just oppressing them. I understand that many of these nations/regions oppress people, take advantage of others, and ruin lives- but isn't that we are doing when we shame them? We usually say that we care for others, but it doesn't seem like we care about them when we are subjecting people to shame based on their beliefs. In my opinion, this should stop, because those fascists could use the same tactics we are using to fight them to retaliate at us, and we all have plenty of dirt on us.

My question to you NS is what do you think, should we continue to condemn people based on their beliefs, or should it stop?

This is General. You should take your roleplaying issue to the appropriate forum.

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Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich
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Founded: Jan 02, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Restoration of Eastern Kaiserreich » Thu May 02, 2019 2:06 pm

Probably because these supposed 'Fascists' are really just nazis who say they are Fascist. And the view that nazism and Fascism is the same thing doesn't help any actual Fascists.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu May 02, 2019 5:23 pm

The interesting thing here is that there hasn't been a Condemnation of a fascist nation in a fair while.

Interesting other question, but what exactly is the problem with people vocally voicing their disapproval of fascism?
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North Saitama
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Founded: Jul 04, 2017
Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Fri May 03, 2019 4:08 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Interesting other question, but what exactly is the problem with people vocally voicing their disapproval of fascism?


There actually isn't anything wrong; the problem lies in committing IC war crimes in pursuit of "destroying fascism". If the fascist regions are actually doing anything concretely wrong, like making bigoted posts and harassing people, they should be dealt with OOC and just banned from NS entirely. And raiders are already fair game as combatants.

Moreover, I do think that we should move away from OOC in the WA, and focus more on IC, as the OOC is just allowing the WA to become a battlefield of ideological warfare, ignoring IC implications of proposals and resolutions.
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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri May 03, 2019 5:41 pm

Thus far the prevailing attitude is that fascists are doing wrong things by being fascist and being here.
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The Rich Port
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Founded: Jul 29, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rich Port » Fri May 03, 2019 6:19 pm

North Saitama wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Interesting other question, but what exactly is the problem with people vocally voicing their disapproval of fascism?


There actually isn't anything wrong; the problem lies in committing IC war crimes in pursuit of "destroying fascism". If the fascist regions are actually doing anything concretely wrong, like making bigoted posts and harassing people, they should be dealt with OOC and just banned from NS entirely. And raiders are already fair game as combatants.

Moreover, I do think that we should move away from OOC in the WA, and focus more on IC, as the OOC is just allowing the WA to become a battlefield of ideological warfare, ignoring IC implications of proposals and resolutions.


Then we would be missing out on the literary irony of fascists being the victims of the World Assembly.

You're also, even more ironically, ignoring the fact that, as Dominator mentioned, condemnations towards fascists are unpopular these days.

So... There isn't an issue. The OP is complaining about a problem that existed before fascism and Nazism became the hip, happening new trend among the kids.
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The Snazzylands
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Snazzylands » Fri May 03, 2019 6:24 pm

The people trying to repress fascists are the REAL fascists!!!
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The Rich Port
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Rich Port » Fri May 03, 2019 6:28 pm

The Snazzylands wrote:The people trying to repress fascists are the REAL fascists!!!


Or maybe, the fascists are just jealous we can be better fascists than they could ever hope to be.

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FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO BURN.
FIRE. IF IT TAKES YOU TO LEARN.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE DONE.
FIRE. TO DESTROY ALL YOU'VE BECOME.
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Lyrical International Brigade
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Founded: Mar 31, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Lyrical International Brigade » Fri May 03, 2019 7:21 pm

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Qwabour Harbour
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Founded: Dec 08, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Qwabour Harbour » Sat May 04, 2019 4:08 am

North Saitama wrote:While we're on the subject, I do believe that "liberating" Fascist regions is unethical, as is raiding them unprovoked. IC, it amounts to a war of aggression, which is, in fact, a war crime.

Which is also why I am so opposed to how organisations like the MT Army are actually commended for what are IC war crimes, Fascist or not. I do not believe that war crimes should be rewarded and encouraged, no matter who the target is.

Are you saying that fascism should be allowed to run loose? The MT Army has spent the last 16-17 years fighting fascism. They deserve the commendation. Or are you salty your repeal didn't get momentum and you're sitting on your fascist sympathising bum whining about it?

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Arentium
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Founded: Feb 04, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Arentium » Sat May 04, 2019 4:55 am

Qwabour Harbour wrote:
North Saitama wrote:While we're on the subject, I do believe that "liberating" Fascist regions is unethical, as is raiding them unprovoked. IC, it amounts to a war of aggression, which is, in fact, a war crime.

Which is also why I am so opposed to how organisations like the MT Army are actually commended for what are IC war crimes, Fascist or not. I do not believe that war crimes should be rewarded and encouraged, no matter who the target is.

Are you saying that fascism should be allowed to run loose? The MT Army has spent the last 16-17 years fighting fascism. They deserve the commendation. Or are you salty your repeal didn't get momentum and you're sitting on your fascist sympathising bum whining about it?

Maybe they wouldn't have to fight facism for the last 16-17 years if they just tried to reason with the other side and eventually come to a satisfactory free "mobility of ideology" (where people are allowed to change views rather efficiently without too much peer pressure to change back).

From my experience of actually debating with fascists and studying actual Nazis (or National Socialists, as they love to call themselves - even though it's just a longer version of the same idea), I can promise you that these raids against them have actually strengthened them. Creating an atmosphere of fear and closemindedness where they are legitimately afraid of dissenting views because they're afraid of dying off completely.

This near-universal hatred of them has given them an "edgy ideology" status and shared camaraderie where they see each other as fellow brothers-in-arms against a "wave of liberalism, degeneracy and modernism" has ensured that they will never die. In a way, we are creating our own boogiemen.

By using ad hominems (like calling them basement dwellers and racists), we make it seem like our beef is with their existence, rather than ideology - thus creating this feeling that they are being ridiculed by society and attacked left-and-right. By failing to explain the flaws with authoritarianism and actually come to a reasonable conclusion on what is the best way to govern and defaulting on calling them the "scum of the Earth", we are fostering a sense of brotherhood between them - and giving them a shared victimhood hive mentality.

By suppressing their views, we show weakness to debate and reasoning with these people and their ideologies, feeding into this image that they have crafted for themselves as "edgy philosophers" who have "secret ways and knowledge" into how to actually govern a country. The same way people feel a wave of liberation when they move from totalitarian North Korea into a significantly less repressive society like America, South Korea, etc., these fascists are creating a pseudo-air of intellectual freedom by promising newcomers that they shall allow any radical perspectives.

Now, I'm no fascist. But to say that every fascist is a racist, basement dwelling white supremacists is both belittling and foolish. I have seen fascists from across the world. An Assyrian woman who feels resentment toward "Western democratic countries" for intervening in her nation's affairs, a Finnish man who feels angered by the weakness and dog-like pandering to votes he sees in his country (and the political corruption in the ruling class), a Greek Holocaust-Denier who blames the liberalism of his homeland for its sprawling debt (who is now a democratic-centrist, mind you) and even a Turkish Muslim who dreams of the (I quote) "glorious rebirth of the Sejuk Turk Sultanate" and who as well feels resentment towards "Western democratic countries" (and as if to add insult to injury, that Turkish guy supports Trump's stance on immigration, because "It keeps third-world workers from leaving their country and ensures that they stay and improve their own homelands economically).

So, what do these people all have in common? For starters, they're all humans with their own individual outlook on life and independent conclusions on why the world is messed up and how to improve it. And they all believe that the key to a better future is in a strong and unapologetically nationalistic government with its people's needs (not short-term wants, but long-term needs) in mind. And they each have a unique take on who is to blame for the current ills their nations face... But they tend to blame it especially on democracy and "corrupt, vote-pandering politicians" - which the Nazis then claim is propagated by rich Jews.

With that in mind, it shouldn't be so difficult to listen and talk for a change, rather than yell and try to shut one another up. Of course, not everyone will be willing to change their minds, and that's fine. As long as they don't threaten death or try to harrass anyone to the point of madness, then everything should be fine, and people will be free to decide for themselves what's best.

Of course, this is for nation-states - which, to be frank, as a nation simulator also doubles as a political debate platform, since we get to explain our differing views and showcase the (somewhat accurate?) results of our own freakish policies -, and real life violence has been perpetrated in the names of all manner of ideologies - there, I can understand the need to sometimes censor dangerous ideas (even if I don't entirely agree with censorship). But, this is NationStates, where we can debate and discuss without the threat of the other side physically beating us to death or using secret police or KKK militia forces to silence one another.

So, frankly, it should be easier for us to reason on this website than real life, thus I see no reason for us to bring OOC feuds to the forums and messaging boards where no one but Max Barry and his Mods have the power to speech police us - who, to be frank, are not self-proclaimed fascists, so it's not like anyone's going to censor non-fascist ideas.
Last edited by Arentium on Sat May 04, 2019 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Line Islands
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Founded: Mar 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Line Islands » Sat May 04, 2019 4:58 am

Arentium wrote:
Qwabour Harbour wrote:Are you saying that fascism should be allowed to run loose? The MT Army has spent the last 16-17 years fighting fascism. They deserve the commendation. Or are you salty your repeal didn't get momentum and you're sitting on your fascist sympathising bum whining about it?

Maybe they wouldn't have to fight facism for the last 16-17 years if they just tried to reason with the other side and eventually come to a satisfactory free "mobility of ideology" (where people are allowed to change views rather efficiently without too much peer pressure to change back).

From my experience of actually debating with fascists and studying actual Nazis (or National Socialists, as they love to call themselves - even though it's just a longer version of the same idea), I can promise you that these raids against them have actually strengthened them. Creating an atmosphere of fear and closemindedness where they are legitimately afraid of dissenting views because they're afraid of dying off completely.

This near-universal hatred of them has given them an "edgy ideology" status and shared camaraderie where they see each other as fellow brothers-in-arms against a "wave of liberalism, degeneracy and modernism" has ensured that they will never die. In a way, we are creating our own boogiemen.

By using ad hominems (like calling them basement dwellers and racists), we make it seem like our beef is with their existence, rather than ideology - thus creating this feeling that they are being ridiculed by society and attacked left-and-right. By failing to explain the flaws with authoritarianism and actually come to a reasonable conclusion on what is the best way to govern and defaulting on calling them the "scum of the Earth", we are fostering a sense of brotherhood between them - and giving them a shared victimhood hive mentality.

By suppressing their views, we show weakness to debate and reasoning with these people and their ideologies, feeding into this image that they have crafted for themselves as "edgy philosophers" who have "secret ways and knowledge" into how to actually govern a country. The same way people feel a wave of liberation when they move from totalitarian North Korea into a significantly less repressive society like America, South Korea, etc., these fascists are creating a pseudo-air of intellectual freedom by promising newcomers that they shall allow any radical perspectives.

Now, I'm no fascist. But to say that every fascist is a racist, basement dwelling white supremacists is both belittling and foolish. I have seen fascists from across the world. An Assyrian woman who feels resentment toward "Western democratic countries" for intervening in her nation's affairs, a Finnish man who feels angered by the weakness and dog-like pandering to votes he sees in his country (and the political corruption in the ruling class), a Greek Holocaust-Denier who blames the liberalism of his homeland for its sprawling debt (who is now a democratic-centrist, mind you) and even a Turkish Muslim who dreams of the (I quote) "glorious rebirth of the Sejuk Turk Sultanate" and who as well feels resentment towards "Western democratic countries" (and as if to add insult to injury, that Turkish guy supports Trump's stance on immigration, because "It keeps third-world workers from leaving their country and ensures that they stay and improve their own homelands economically).

So, what do these people all have in common? For starters, they're all humans with their own individual outlook on life and independent conclusions on why the world is messed up and how to improve it. And they all believe that the key to a better future is in a strong and unapologetically nationalistic government with its people's needs (not short-term wants, but long-term needs) in mind. And they each have a unique take on who is to blame for the current ills their nations face... But they tend to blame it especially on democracy and "corrupt, vote-pandering politicians".

With that in mind, it shouldn't be so difficult to listen and talk for a change, rather than yell and try to shut one another up. Of course, not everyone will be willing to change their minds, and that's fine. As long as they don't threaten death or try to harrass anyone to the point of madness, then everything should be fine, and people will be free to decide for themselves what's best.

Of course, this is for nation-states - which, to be frank, as a nation simulator also doubles as a political debate platform, since we get to explain our differing views and showcase the (somewhat accurate?) results of our own freakish policies -, and real life violence has been perpetrated in the names of all manner of ideologies - there, I can understand the need to sometimes censor dangerous ideas (even if I don't entirely agree with censorship). But, this is NationStates, where we can debate and discuss without the threat of the other side physically beating us to death or using secret police or KKK militia forces to silence one another.

So, frankly, it should be easier for us to reason on this website than real life, thus I see no reason for us to bring OOC feuds to the forums and messaging boards where no one but Max Barry and his Mods have the power to speech police us - who, to be frank, are not self-proclaimed fascists, so it's not like anyone's going to censor non-fascist ideas.

Region: Fifth Empire

yeah didn't think so

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Arentium
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Founded: Feb 04, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Arentium » Sat May 04, 2019 5:01 am

Line Islands wrote:Region: Fifth Empire

Yeah didn't think so

Indeed. Told you I've been debating them. :lol2:
Last edited by Arentium on Sat May 04, 2019 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat May 04, 2019 11:56 am

They're free to show up on NSG if they truly wish to examine their beliefs, I'm aware of several posters there who are fascist or adjacent.
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Nakena
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Founded: May 06, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nakena » Sat May 04, 2019 7:34 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:They're free to show up on NSG if they truly wish to examine their beliefs, I'm aware of several posters there who are fascist or adjacent.


NSG = the containment board of Nationstates?
Last edited by Nakena on Sat May 04, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat May 04, 2019 8:31 pm

Nakena wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:They're free to show up on NSG if they truly wish to examine their beliefs, I'm aware of several posters there who are fascist or adjacent.


NSG = the containment board of Nationstates?

Lol
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RiderSyl
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Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby RiderSyl » Sun May 05, 2019 4:12 am

Because fascism is bad.
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Kavagrad
Diplomat
 
Posts: 912
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Wed May 08, 2019 5:25 am

Because NSGP still isn't 100% behind liberating them yet.

But their children are gonna love it.
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Fascist Pruessens
Secretary
 
Posts: 34
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fascist Pruessens » Wed May 08, 2019 5:31 am

Because Fascist nations have beliefs that are against the Majority of NS. I don't think condemning them over and over is a good thing, it just makes them pissed. And we if keep doing that then they will probably retaliate.

I apologize if I have bad grammar, I am not an English speaker.
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Arentium
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Founded: Feb 04, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Arentium » Wed May 08, 2019 7:10 pm

Fascist Pruessens wrote:Because Fascist nations have beliefs that are against the Majority of NS. I don't think condemning them over and over is a good thing, it just makes them pissed. And we if keep doing that then they will probably retaliate.

I apologize if I have bad grammar, I am not an English speaker.

German, I'm guessing?

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