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[SUBMITTED] Commend Antifa

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 11203
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:16 am

Sure, I'll bite, I'll tell you what parts of Antifa's dispatch I really don't like, and maybe you can let me know why this is good.
This is all coming from the first belief of thinking that raiding Nazi/fascist regions is a good thing to do, which I don't hold, but I'm going to attempt to illuminate the obvious inadiquacies of Antifa's judgemtnt.
- NationStates Antifa hunts both real world and role-play Nazi/Fascist nations/regions as its purpose is both serious and role-play based.
This, if you rped, would be absolutely fine. I'm sure quite a number of roleplay fascist nations would be happy to rp with you, some of them even live in mainstream rp regions. The fact you raid, rather than rp, is the difference here, rp fascists want to rp as fascists, they don't 'spread hate' or any such bollocks, they want to rp.

- Deny Nazis and Fascists a platform to spread hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression on NationStates.
What if they're not spreading these things but simply existing in a community?

- Nazi / Fascist themed nations.
...what? Just what? I bet that at least one of the pacific regions will have a Nazi/fascist-themed nation in it. Hell, you work with the NPO, if 'francos spain' isn't a fascist-themed nation, what is?

- Content on the Regional Message Board, World Fact Book entry, Factbooks/Dispatches, Discord and Forums that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion or non-religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

Again, what? I've been attacked on the basis of disability before, in mainstream regions. Should I be letting y'all know so you can go raid them?
WFE, sure. If it's on the WFE it shouldn't be.
Forums/discord though? You place a lot of expectation into how much the (usually very small) admin teams of small and medium-sized regions can realisticly do if they have an active discord or forum. A few posts in a flood does not a fascist/Nazi region make.

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Southern Republic of Dixie
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 5
Founded: Nov 03, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Southern Republic of Dixie » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:56 am

Blind commending antifa is just a disgrace.
It is obvious they have killed fascist regions but have also attacked conservative and left leaning people.
We must move to condemn this action.
Maybe a better written proposal would do it.

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Christian Confederation
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Posts: 440
Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Christian Confederation » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:06 am

Against, antifa have done little to no good as of recant. Mostly tag raids and stopping a handful of facists.
As of recent I have only seen antifa threaten regions and raid Conservative RP regions. If they hate facists government's they should protest max to remove facism from the game.

:lol2: my bad I meant anything right of socalism :rofl:
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Christian Confederation
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Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Christian Confederation » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:07 am

Southern Republic of Dixie wrote:Blind commending antifa is just a disgrace.
It is obvious they have killed fascist regions but have also attacked conservative and left leaning people.
We must move to condemn this action.
Maybe a better written proposal would do it.

Yup a better written proposal with some real damning evidence.
Founder of the moderate alliance
Open to new members, and embassy's.
My telagram box is always open for productive conversation.
IRL political views center right/ right.

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Honeydewistania
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Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Honeydewistania » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:11 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Sure, I'll bite, I'll tell you what parts of Antifa's dispatch I really don't like, and maybe you can let me know why this is good.
This is all coming from the first belief of thinking that raiding Nazi/fascist regions is a good thing to do, which I don't hold, but I'm going to attempt to illuminate the obvious inadiquacies of Antifa's judgemtnt.
- NationStates Antifa hunts both real world and role-play Nazi/Fascist nations/regions as its purpose is both serious and role-play based.
This, if you rped, would be absolutely fine. I'm sure quite a number of roleplay fascist nations would be happy to rp with you, some of them even live in mainstream rp regions. The fact you raid, rather than rp, is the difference here, rp fascists want to rp as fascists, they don't 'spread hate' or any such bollocks, they want to rp.

- Deny Nazis and Fascists a platform to spread hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression on NationStates.
What if they're not spreading these things but simply existing in a community?

- Nazi / Fascist themed nations.
...what? Just what? I bet that at least one of the pacific regions will have a Nazi/fascist-themed nation in it. Hell, you work with the NPO, if 'francos spain' isn't a fascist-themed nation, what is?

- Content on the Regional Message Board, World Fact Book entry, Factbooks/Dispatches, Discord and Forums that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion or non-religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

Again, what? I've been attacked on the basis of disability before, in mainstream regions. Should I be letting y'all know so you can go raid them?
WFE, sure. If it's on the WFE it shouldn't be.
Forums/discord though? You place a lot of expectation into how much the (usually very small) admin teams of small and medium-sized regions can realisticly do if they have an active discord or forum. A few posts in a flood does not a fascist/Nazi region make.

These are good and make sense if you use that thing in your head that starts with a b and ends with an n. If you have any common sense, you'd know that these are applied accordingly. If a region is fascist, promotes fascism and wants people to be fascist and join their fascist region, they're trying to spread oppression. If there is a sizeable amount of fascist-themed nations, it is probably fascist. (note that I said probably. Use common sense and you can tell if its a puppet flood or not). Also, if it is encouraged, egged on or commended by others for attacking people for attributes, its probably fascist. Simple
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:24 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Sure, I'll bite, I'll tell you what parts of Antifa's dispatch I really don't like, and maybe you can let me know why this is good.
This is all coming from the first belief of thinking that raiding Nazi/fascist regions is a good thing to do, which I don't hold, but I'm going to attempt to illuminate the obvious inadiquacies of Antifa's judgemtnt.
- NationStates Antifa hunts both real world and role-play Nazi/Fascist nations/regions as its purpose is both serious and role-play based.
This, if you rped, would be absolutely fine. I'm sure quite a number of roleplay fascist nations would be happy to rp with you, some of them even live in mainstream rp regions. The fact you raid, rather than rp, is the difference here, rp fascists want to rp as fascists, they don't 'spread hate' or any such bollocks, they want to rp.

- Deny Nazis and Fascists a platform to spread hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression on NationStates.
What if they're not spreading these things but simply existing in a community?

- Nazi / Fascist themed nations.
...what? Just what? I bet that at least one of the pacific regions will have a Nazi/fascist-themed nation in it. Hell, you work with the NPO, if 'francos spain' isn't a fascist-themed nation, what is?

- Content on the Regional Message Board, World Fact Book entry, Factbooks/Dispatches, Discord and Forums that attacks a person or group on the basis of attributes such as race, religion or non-religion, ethnic origin, national origin, sex, disability, sexual orientation, or gender identity.

Again, what? I've been attacked on the basis of disability before, in mainstream regions. Should I be letting y'all know so you can go raid them?
WFE, sure. If it's on the WFE it shouldn't be.
Forums/discord though? You place a lot of expectation into how much the (usually very small) admin teams of small and medium-sized regions can realisticly do if they have an active discord or forum. A few posts in a flood does not a fascist/Nazi region make.

These are good and make sense if you use that thing in your head that starts with a b and ends with an n. If you have any common sense, you'd know that these are applied accordingly. If a region is fascist, promotes fascism and wants people to be fascist and join their fascist region, they're trying to spread oppression. If there is a sizeable amount of fascist-themed nations, it is probably fascist. (note that I said probably. Use common sense and you can tell if its a puppet flood or not). Also, if it is encouraged, egged on or commended by others for attacking people for attributes, its probably fascist. Simple

Or 'RP fascist,' don't forget about that.

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Wrapper
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wrapper » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 am

Don’t use a “Failed” tag. That implies this went to vote and failed, which it did not. I’ve changed it back to SUBMITTED, but (1) if you are abandoning this idea then you can change it to ABANDONED, or (2) if you are planning to redraft then you can change it back to DRAFT.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:15 am

Wrapper wrote:Don’t use a “Failed” tag. That implies this went to vote and failed, which it did not. I’ve changed it back to SUBMITTED, but (1) if you are abandoning this idea then you can change it to ABANDONED, or (2) if you are planning to redraft then you can change it back to DRAFT.

I thought there was a 'failed to reach quarum' tag

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New Bremerton
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:22 am

If NS Antifa wants to earn my respect, they should at least go after regions that espouse other extreme ideologies that pose a very real threat IRL, such as radical Islam, like many governments have done IRL. White supremacy is not the only fascist ideology in existence. The equally toxic ideology of Islamic supremacy radicalizes just as many people online and claims both Muslim and non-Muslim lives in the Muslim world and elsewhere, far more than white supremacists have managed to claim since 9/11, even after the Christchurch terror attacks perpetrated by he who shall not be named by order of NZ PM Ardern. And let's not forget those racist, genocidal Buddhist supremacists in Myanmar who have been [explicit verb redacted to avoid incurring mod wrath] Rohingya Muslim children, or those radical cow-worshipping Hindu supremacists in India who have been lynching Muslims on false pretenses of killing cows while the ruling BJP turns a blind eye.

NS Antifa should go after ALL fascist regions, not just some of them. They should leave no stone unturned and no minorities thrown under the bus by their negligence. Notice I haven't mentioned communism, which I don't consider fascist, and which hasn't posed a major RL threat since 1989. NS communists certainly don't pose an ideological threat in-game, although leftists can be really annoying at times both in-game and IRL.

I recently got into an argument with someone as to why NS Antifa only targets white supremacist regions. I don't live in a predominantly white, Western country. I live in a predominantly ethnic Malay, Muslim country. Thus, I don't see how fighting white supremacy in an online game benefits me personally since there are very few white people around me besides tourists and expats. On the other hand, fighting Islamic supremacy is something I can truly get behind because far-right, racist, ethnic Malay, Muslim supremacists are all around me, literally ran the country for over 60 years and continue to exert undue influence at the expense of my sanity and mental health.

If NS Antifa pledges to include Muslim extremist regions in their ideological crusade against fascism, they'll have my everlasting gratitude and respect, which would likely result in me voting for Commend Antifa regardless of the proposal's content. Until then and due to earlier misfires against non-fascist regions which I've addressed in another thread, AGAINST.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Memelandia Major
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Founded: Aug 31, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Memelandia Major » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:24 am

Antifa (Real life version, and from what I have read, this one too) takes an ultra violent method of trying to fight fascism. Which they continually fail to do, they've attacked people who aren't actually fascist and are just proud of their nation. Or made an edgy joke.

Against
Memelandian News: Jimbo Neutron making increasingly aggressive remarks against communism.

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The Gilded Star
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Posts: 138
Founded: Nov 26, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Gilded Star » Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:55 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Wrapper wrote:Don’t use a “Failed” tag. That implies this went to vote and failed, which it did not. I’ve changed it back to SUBMITTED, but (1) if you are abandoning this idea then you can change it to ABANDONED, or (2) if you are planning to redraft then you can change it back to DRAFT.

I thought there was a 'failed to reach quarum' tag


Quorum is what's needed to put it up to WA vote, rather than the WA vote itself.

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Wrapper
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wrapper » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:51 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Wrapper wrote:Don’t use a “Failed” tag. That implies this went to vote and failed, which it did not. I’ve changed it back to SUBMITTED, but (1) if you are abandoning this idea then you can change it to ABANDONED, or (2) if you are planning to redraft then you can change it back to DRAFT.

I thought there was a 'failed to reach quarum' tag

Sure, that’s fine too, if the author is abandoning the proposal.

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Vippertooth33
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Posts: 21
Founded: Jul 18, 2004
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vippertooth33 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:48 pm

New Bremerton wrote:If NS Antifa wants to earn my respect, they should at least go after regions that espouse other extreme ideologies that pose a very real threat IRL, such as radical Islam, like many governments have done IRL. White supremacy is not the only fascist ideology in existence. The equally toxic ideology of Islamic supremacy radicalizes just as many people online and claims both Muslim and non-Muslim lives in the Muslim world and elsewhere, far more than white supremacists have managed to claim since 9/11, even after the Christchurch terror attacks perpetrated by he who shall not be named by order of NZ PM Ardern. And let's not forget those racist, genocidal Buddhist supremacists in Myanmar who have been [explicit verb redacted to avoid incurring mod wrath] Rohingya Muslim children, or those radical cow-worshipping Hindu supremacists in India who have been lynching Muslims on false pretenses of killing cows while the ruling BJP turns a blind eye.

NS Antifa should go after ALL fascist regions, not just some of them. They should leave no stone unturned and no minorities thrown under the bus by their negligence. Notice I haven't mentioned communism, which I don't consider fascist, and which hasn't posed a major RL threat since 1989. NS communists certainly don't pose an ideological threat in-game, although leftists can be really annoying at times both in-game and IRL.

I recently got into an argument with someone as to why NS Antifa only targets white supremacist regions. I don't live in a predominantly white, Western country. I live in a predominantly ethnic Malay, Muslim country. Thus, I don't see how fighting white supremacy in an online game benefits me personally since there are very few white people around me besides tourists and expats. On the other hand, fighting Islamic supremacy is something I can truly get behind because far-right, racist, ethnic Malay, Muslim supremacists are all around me, literally ran the country for over 60 years and continue to exert undue influence at the expense of my sanity and mental health.

If NS Antifa pledges to include Muslim extremist regions in their ideological crusade against fascism, they'll have my everlasting gratitude and respect, which would likely result in me voting for Commend Antifa regardless of the proposal's content. Until then and due to earlier misfires against non-fascist regions which I've addressed in another thread, AGAINST.


You should probably do some research.

Related regions that The MT Army have tackled, let alone groups of Antifa regions (e.g. https://www.nationstates.net/region=isl ... _and_syria) includes:

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=the ... _caliphate

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=the_islamic_jihad

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=isl ... and_levant

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=islamic_jihad

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=the ... and_levant

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=al_qaeda

There are probably more but i think the point has been made.

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New Bremerton
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Posts: 282
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:24 am

Vippertooth33 wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:If NS Antifa wants to earn my respect, they should at least go after regions that espouse other extreme ideologies that pose a very real threat IRL, such as radical Islam, like many governments have done IRL. White supremacy is not the only fascist ideology in existence. The equally toxic ideology of Islamic supremacy radicalizes just as many people online and claims both Muslim and non-Muslim lives in the Muslim world and elsewhere, far more than white supremacists have managed to claim since 9/11, even after the Christchurch terror attacks perpetrated by he who shall not be named by order of NZ PM Ardern. And let's not forget those racist, genocidal Buddhist supremacists in Myanmar who have been [explicit verb redacted to avoid incurring mod wrath] Rohingya Muslim children, or those radical cow-worshipping Hindu supremacists in India who have been lynching Muslims on false pretenses of killing cows while the ruling BJP turns a blind eye.

NS Antifa should go after ALL fascist regions, not just some of them. They should leave no stone unturned and no minorities thrown under the bus by their negligence. Notice I haven't mentioned communism, which I don't consider fascist, and which hasn't posed a major RL threat since 1989. NS communists certainly don't pose an ideological threat in-game, although leftists can be really annoying at times both in-game and IRL.

I recently got into an argument with someone as to why NS Antifa only targets white supremacist regions. I don't live in a predominantly white, Western country. I live in a predominantly ethnic Malay, Muslim country. Thus, I don't see how fighting white supremacy in an online game benefits me personally since there are very few white people around me besides tourists and expats. On the other hand, fighting Islamic supremacy is something I can truly get behind because far-right, racist, ethnic Malay, Muslim supremacists are all around me, literally ran the country for over 60 years and continue to exert undue influence at the expense of my sanity and mental health.

If NS Antifa pledges to include Muslim extremist regions in their ideological crusade against fascism, they'll have my everlasting gratitude and respect, which would likely result in me voting for Commend Antifa regardless of the proposal's content. Until then and due to earlier misfires against non-fascist regions which I've addressed in another thread, AGAINST.


You should probably do some research.

Related regions that The MT Army have tackled, let alone groups of Antifa regions (e.g. https://www.nationstates.net/region=isl ... _and_syria) includes:

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=the ... _caliphate

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=the_islamic_jihad

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=isl ... and_levant

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=islamic_jihad

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=the ... and_levant

- https://www.nationstates.net/region=al_qaeda

There are probably more but i think the point has been made.


You know, I was worried you would respond with "but Islamists are not fascists and they are not our responsibility". Thank you for proving me wrong. Making the world a safer place through non-violent online action is something I can get behind. A word of advice: You could try clarifying your mission statement to let people know that radical Islamists and other non-white supremacist fascists are also on your radar. It would really go a long way toward galvanizing public support within NS among non-fascists.

I don't think I want to condemn you anymore despite my misgivings. Commending is a different story. At this point, I'd probably ABSTAIN on any commendation including this one. I think your embassy policy is overly broad, especially with respect to politically neutral, non-Nazi/fascist themed regions that prefer to accept nations and embassies of any political leaning (i.e. Redlandia, although I saw your exchange with them on their RMB praising them for not having embassies with fascist regions), and do ALL regions with a fascist tag get raided, even if the founder/delegate is just blindly messing around with random tags for the lulz? Say I found a new region that includes ALL the available tags for no reason, including the fascist tag? As for protected groups, I suspect many legitimately conservative regions have yet to come around to even recognizing the existence of trans people.

But after what you've shown me, I think I'll vote against any future condemnation attempt, at least OOCly. Your target criteria make it clear that NS Antifa is both an IRL and an RP antifascist region, and you do go after radical Islamists. I don't think the same can be said of RL, far-left Antifa, of whom there is much to despise. On the RP front, I just don't like raiders. Period. Just don't raid/liberate the FCN, and please don't confuse conservatives with fascists, or I just might abstain.

BTW, one of the radical Islamist regions (Islamic State in Iraq and Syria) was occupied by "fascists", according to The MT Army. By fascist-occupied, do you mean occupied by white supremacist neo-Nazis, or founded and "occupied" by Islamic fascists? The other region (The Islamic Jihad) was originally founded by Nazis according to The MT Army, and that same region is stated to have been defeated by "moderate Islamist" groups. I'm slightly confused.

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Courelli
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 41
Founded: Apr 17, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Courelli » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:10 pm

New Bremerton wrote:A word of advice: You could try clarifying your mission statement to let people know that radical Islamists and other non-white supremacist fascists are also on your radar.

Just popping in to say that the linked "mission statement" dispatch, entitled Anti-fascism, or, Why We Fight, is not the mission statement of Antifa - but is still a wonderful piece of anti-fascist literature on NationStates (penned by Socialist Space Republic, former Admiral of The Red Fleet).

The mission statement (and other policies) of Antifa can be viewed here.
Last edited by Courelli on Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Christian Confederation
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 440
Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Christian Confederation » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:23 pm

Good to hear y'all are fighting Islamic extremist to.

I agree that the mission statement needs to be redone to something more clear. Prahaps we fight non RP facists, Islamic extremist, racial supremacists etc.

Also if you let some right wing members in antifa will fill more Moderate and less left likely gaining more support from the community.
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American Pere Housh
Diplomat
 
Posts: 775
Founded: Jan 12, 2019
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby American Pere Housh » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:57 am

"Nothing but a bunch of terrorists. I will not support this proposal as it is an abomination."
THE EMPIRE SUPPORTS THE DECEPTICON ARMY!!!! ALL HAIL LORD MEGATRON!!!!!

I don't use NS stats for this nation.

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Honeydewistania
Envoy
 
Posts: 242
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Honeydewistania » Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:28 am

American Pere Housh wrote:"Nothing but a bunch of terrorists. I will not support this proposal as it is an abomination."


1. no we aren't
2. You gravedigged a month old thread for no reason
Honeydewistania. Formerly known as Honeydewistan. Hi. Nothing to see here.

PRO: Socialism, Atheism, Science, Vaccines, Remain, Democrat, Labour Party, Independent Scotland, United Ireland, LGBT Rights, Feminism (not too radical though), choice

NEUTRAL: n/a

ANTI: Brexit, Anti Vaxxers, UKIP, Conservatives, Fascists, Capitalists, Homophobes

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