NationStates

I'm quite surprised by the wide variety of ideologies mentioned. Isn't it paradoxical to have communists cohabitate with fascists? I thought they hated each other.

Aside from that, the other parts seem good.

Bedetopia wrote:I'm quite surprised by the wide variety of ideologies mentioned. Isn't it paradoxical to have communists cohabitate with fascists? I thought they hated each other.

Aside from that, the other parts seem good.

Previously, the laws governing the Confederation restricted rulers from aligning with leftist ideology. However, more recently Imperial Law was relaxed and only encourages right-wing ideologies. It's really just a pro-authoritarian haven now.

As for communist/fascist cohabitation, they don't need to hate each other, and often nationalist movements have evolved into communist groups so the two are closer than you'd think. Economic policy is also similar, however Mussolini stated that Fascist economic policy should be flexible and not plagued by ideological commitments which opposes Communist policy.

You're saying now that communism is almost equal to fascism? Yikes.

Anyways, I think we shouldn't repeal this. Soon, the region will decline and it'll be stuck with about 20 nations, much easier to raid. I think for now, it should be kept there. I think its stupid to liberate foundered regions, but if we repeal them it'll tell the edgy kids that they 'have won against the WA elite' or something.

Blood Wine wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The telegram you're talking about was an IC one from his leader, it even had a leader name at the bottom.

You cannot hide behind that idiotic excuse of "IC" when supporting nazism

Well, if something is IC, and you for some reason refuse to accept that, I'm unsure how to convince you otherwise. I think if it was OOC, and it came from him, it would have OOC at the top, given he feels the need to clarify IC/OOC status in moderation posts and telegrams about discord.

'To the Community of CAIN United,

Our apologies for radio silence. The Imperial Empire has only just returned to NationStates after a foreseen leave of absence.

The Confederation respects your region's goals and commends you for your continuing mission.

Nonetheless, the Confederation does not share in your dislike of Nazis. We are strong supporters of fascism and find that Nazi ideologies are of benefit to both our government and the wider world.

The Confederation will not be bullied into believing otherwise and politely invites you to cease your hollow threats.

Sincerely,

Viceroy's Office
on behalf of
WALTER MEMMON
VICEROY OF THE CONFEDERATION'

I don't think that is In-Character

Heraswed wrote:

Bedetopia wrote:I'm quite surprised by the wide variety of ideologies mentioned. Isn't it paradoxical to have communists cohabitate with fascists? I thought they hated each other.

Aside from that, the other parts seem good.

Previously, the laws governing the Confederation restricted rulers from aligning with leftist ideology. However, more recently Imperial Law was relaxed and only encourages right-wing ideologies. It's really just a pro-authoritarian haven now.

As for communist/fascist cohabitation, they don't need to hate each other, and often nationalist movements have evolved into communist groups so the two are closer than you'd think. Economic policy is also similar, however Mussolini stated that Fascist economic policy should be flexible and not plagued by ideological commitments which opposes Communist policy.

Interesting. Although I think that while it makes sense in theory, in practice they are divided.

Maybe you should alter your third clause to point out it's any kind of authoritarianism, because when people see centrism or conservatism they're more likely to think democracy or republic.

Kuriko deleting her post
:thonk:

Honeydewistania wrote:'To the Community of CAIN United,

Our apologies for radio silence. The Imperial Empire has only just returned to NationStates after a foreseen leave of absence.

The Confederation respects your region's goals and commends you for your continuing mission.

Nonetheless, the Confederation does not share in your dislike of Nazis. We are strong supporters of fascism and find that Nazi ideologies are of benefit to both our government and the wider world.

The Confederation will not be bullied into believing otherwise and politely invites you to cease your hollow threats.

Sincerely,

Viceroy's Office
on behalf of
WALTER MEMMON
VICEROY OF THE CONFEDERATION'

I don't think that is In-Character

How can that be seen as out of character?

Caracasus wrote:Very recently Jocospur opened a thread in moderation regarding their region being called nazis and fascistd. They were given some advice as to how to avoid that. Cheifly to close embassies with fascist regions and provide better disclaimers regarding their actual stance on fascism. As far as I am aware they haven't. While Jocospur seemed willing to work with others, unfortunately Shrewlama vetoed the idea. Apart from an insight into who actually runs CoCD, the discussion was fruitless.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=458438

As far as I am concerned I am very much against this. If anything the very venement rejection of perfectly reasonable solutions made in good faith kind of leads me to believe that there is a pretty strong fascist contingent in CoCD.

OOC: I just saw this thread now and I feel like your comment is the only one worth responding to as of now. My government and I are still discussing the advice that was offered. Rome wasn't built in a day, and this decision isn't an easy one for us to make, though it might be for you. We are still conducting our own investigations into the accusations aforementioned concerning select regions and are yet unable to ascertain legitimacy on a variety of circumstances. As far as I am aware, Shrewllamaland, though a valued, integral part of our operation, is not actually the leader of the Confederation, as been suggested several times. If he wishes to challenge me for the position he's more than welcome to but, since it would be a futile act, I'm sure he won't (much to your disappointment, I can see).

Jocospor wrote:

Caracasus wrote:Very recently Jocospur opened a thread in moderation regarding their region being called nazis and fascistd. They were given some advice as to how to avoid that. Cheifly to close embassies with fascist regions and provide better disclaimers regarding their actual stance on fascism. As far as I am aware they haven't. While Jocospur seemed willing to work with others, unfortunately Shrewlama vetoed the idea. Apart from an insight into who actually runs CoCD, the discussion was fruitless.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=458438

As far as I am concerned I am very much against this. If anything the very venement rejection of perfectly reasonable solutions made in good faith kind of leads me to believe that there is a pretty strong fascist contingent in CoCD.

OOC: I just saw this thread now and I feel like your comment is the only one worth responding to as of now. My government and I are still discussing the advice that was offered. Rome wasn't built in a day, and this decision isn't an easy one for us to make, though it might be for you. We are still conducting our own investigations into the accusations aforementioned concerning select regions and are yet unable to ascertain legitimacy on a variety of circumstances. As far as I am aware, Shrewllamaland, though a valued, integral part of our operation, is not actually the leader of the Confederation, as been suggested several times. If he wishes to challenge me for the position he's more than welcome to but, since it would be a futile act, I'm sure he won't (much to your disappointment, I can see).

I'm willing to provide proof of the accusations against NE.

Blood Wine wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The telegram you're talking about was an IC one from his leader, it even had a leader name at the bottom.

You cannot hide behind that idiotic excuse of "IC" when supporting nazism

Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?

Jocospor wrote:As far as I am aware, Shrewllamaland, though a valued, integral part of our operation, is not actually the leader of the Confederation, as been suggested several times. If he wishes to challenge me for the position he's more than welcome to but, since it would be a futile act, I'm sure he won't (much to your disappointment, I can see).

Well, actually, I may just do that. When are our next elections scheduled?

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I'm willing to provide proof of the accusations against NE.

Please do pass it on.

Honeydewistania wrote:'To the Community of CAIN United,

Our apologies for radio silence. The Imperial Empire has only just returned to NationStates after a foreseen leave of absence.

The Confederation respects your region's goals and commends you for your continuing mission.

Nonetheless, the Confederation does not share in your dislike of Nazis. We are strong supporters of fascism and find that Nazi ideologies are of benefit to both our government and the wider world.

The Confederation will not be bullied into believing otherwise and politely invites you to cease your hollow threats.

Sincerely,

Viceroy's Office
on behalf of
WALTER MEMMON
VICEROY OF THE CONFEDERATION'

I don't think that is In-Character

Given that the speaker was self-referential in the third person, the signature was that of the Viceroy of the Confederation (a fictional person) and it was not marked as out-of character (given Jocospor's aforementioned stringency when it comes to differentiation between in character and out-of character speech) I think it can be taken that this is in character.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:

Jocospor wrote:As far as I am aware, Shrewllamaland, though a valued, integral part of our operation, is not actually the leader of the Confederation, as been suggested several times. If he wishes to challenge me for the position he's more than welcome to but, since it would be a futile act, I'm sure he won't (much to your disappointment, I can see).

Well, actually, I may just do that. When are our next elections scheduled?

*knock knock* Come with us, Chancellor, and keep that constitutional rewrite where we can see it.

Heraswed wrote:

Lord Dominator wrote:You're the one who wrote it in your draft amigo.

Where?

The further noting clause

Lord Dominator wrote:
Sure it is, and we've done it before.

But, I've here a piece of SC legislation which explicitly states that the SC believes it is not their place to dictate what ideologies are acceptable, unless you can produce such a piece of legislation which states the opposite, I'm sticking with SC#38.

At least one of Nazi Europe's condemns, all three of the present offensive liberations (KR, NE, and CCD), probably some others, we have a couple commends that cite promotion of a gameplay ideology (and one condemn for promoting a different one), and literally every R/D C&C is a Gameplay ideology related.

Lord Dominator wrote:
Liberations merely require a clause and justification, writing it like a Condemnation was intentional

Condemnation has no mechanical effect

Well firstly, the issue I take is that the only justification you've used is your claim that the CCD is fascist. And I'd remind you that your liberation has likewise had no mechanical effect and wouldn't even serve the purpose you intended for it, since a person would have to read the resolution in order to understand why the badge exists on the CCD page. This renders the purpose of the resolution 'to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting; unknown to most people. Whereas a Condemnation may have given nations an inkling of what was going on without having to have read the resolution.

Aside from the fact that I don't expect people ever read any of the badges after they're passed, a Liberations present non-effect is still more than the effect than a Condemnation can ever have.

Lord Dominator wrote:

This is not a normal liberation, complaints that it isn't are rather moot

This is not a complaint that it's not a normal liberation, the complaint is that it doesn't meet the definition of a liberation resolution. And furthermore, there is a no mechanical effect to the liberation.

It meets the definition of a Liberation resolution, that is it prohibits the regional delegate from imposing a regional password (which, while presently a useless effect is still an effect).

Lord Dominator wrote:
I assume that saying this draft is a silly idea that won't pass doesn't count?

Why is it a 'silly idea'? My definition of a silly idea is proposing an ineffectual liberation which doesn't even meet the definition of a liberation before attempting to keep down a proposal to repeal it through complaints which are as asinine as they are inane.

How about a repeal that won't ever pass? I'd certainly call that a silly idea.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:

Blood Wine wrote:
You cannot hide behind that idiotic excuse of "IC" when supporting nazism

Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?

Jocospor wrote:As far as I am aware, Shrewllamaland, though a valued, integral part of our operation, is not actually the leader of the Confederation, as been suggested several times. If he wishes to challenge me for the position he's more than welcome to but, since it would be a futile act, I'm sure he won't (much to your disappointment, I can see).

Well, actually, I may just do that. When are our next elections scheduled?

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I'm willing to provide proof of the accusations against NE.

Please do pass it on.

If you'd like to send me an email address I can send that to, sure. It's quite large and I only have it as an email, but it can obviously be a throwaway email.

Honeydewistania wrote:Kuriko deleting her post
:thonk:

I have yet to make a post in this thread, so I have no idea why you're saying this. My post earlier today was in the SC questions and answers thread.

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:

Blood Wine wrote:
You cannot hide behind that idiotic excuse of "IC" when supporting nazism

Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?

None of these groups killed over 10 million people

Blood Wine wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?

None of these groups killed over 10 million people

Stalin's Russia is estimated to killed people ranging from 9-20 million. Whereas evil wizards have frequently destroyed whole worlds, the populations of which is likely far in excess of ten million.

Only three pages to regress to whataboutism, that's cool

Blood Wine wrote:

ShrewLlamaLand wrote:Yes, just like you can't hide behind "IC" when role-playing an anarchist, or a communist, or an evil wizard, right?

None of these groups killed over 10 million people

Communists didn't kill over 10 million people?
You can use IC when rping any group, quite a lot of people rp Nazis outside of gameplay very successfully.

Lord Dominator wrote:

Heraswed wrote:Where?

The further noting clause

The 'further noting' clause acknowledges the presence of fascism within the confederation. What I was arguing was that this doesn't mean that the confederation is fascist itself.

Lord Dominator wrote:
Sure it is, and we've done it before.

But, I've here a piece of SC legislation which explicitly states that the SC believes it is not their place to dictate what ideologies are acceptable, unless you can produce such a piece of legislation which states the opposite, I'm sticking with SC#38.

Lord Dominator wrote:At least one of Nazi Europe's condemns, all three of the present offensive liberations (KR, NE, and CCD), probably some others, we have a couple commends that cite promotion of a gameplay ideology (and one condemn for promoting a different one), and literally every R/D C&C is a Gameplay ideology related.

That's all well and good, but the only thing that will change the fact that the SC has legislated that it can't use ideology as the sole reasoning for a resolution is it legislating the opposite.

Lord Dominator wrote:
Liberations merely require a clause and justification, writing it like a Condemnation was intentional

Condemnation has no mechanical effect

Well firstly, the issue I take is that the only justification you've used is your claim that the CCD is fascist. And I'd remind you that your liberation has likewise had no mechanical effect and wouldn't even serve the purpose you intended for it, since a person would have to read the resolution in order to understand why the badge exists on the CCD page. This renders the purpose of the resolution 'to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting; unknown to most people. Whereas a Condemnation may have given nations an inkling of what was going on without having to have read the resolution.

Lord Dominator wrote:Aside from the fact that I don't expect people ever read any of the badges after they're passed, a Liberations present non-effect is still more than the effect than a Condemnation can ever have.

That makes no sense whatsoever, presently, neither would have any mechanical effect. And in order for the liberation to be at all useful, Jocospor would have to leave the site, whilst passing to delegacy to another nation and the Confederation would have to greatly shrink. These alone are unlikely to take place. So, you can either have a noticeable, clear and obvious sign that the region in question is disapproved of by the World at large, or you can have a badge which might as well read 'non-threatening' with a mechanical effect that has an extremely low probability of ever being useful.

Lord Dominator wrote:
This is not a normal liberation, complaints that it isn't are rather moot

This is not a complaint that it's not a normal liberation, the complaint is that it doesn't meet the definition of a liberation resolution. And furthermore, there is a no mechanical effect to the liberation.

Lord Dominator wrote:It meets the definition of a Liberation resolution, that is it prohibits the regional delegate from imposing a regional password (which, while presently a useless effect is still an effect).

Let me rephrase that, it meets the definition of a liberation resolution but has no purpose, as long as the liberation in not affecting the confederation it is purposeless and therefore, should not exist, or even have been passed.

Lord Dominator wrote:

How about a repeal that won't ever pass? I'd certainly call that a silly idea.

And why won't it pass?

For those who believe that the WA has the right to dictate what ideologies are acceptable. GA#2 'The Rights and Duties of WA states'
'Section I:

The Principle of National Sovereignty:

Article 1 § Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government.'

The very idea is in violation of the above.

This is not the GA, this is the SC. Very separate bodies.

Heraswed wrote:

Lord Dominator wrote:
The further noting clause

The 'further noting' clause acknowledges the presence of fascism within the confederation. What I was arguing was that this doesn't mean that the confederation is fascist itself.

I wasn't saying you were, I was addressing that claims of them being fascist being attempted to be re-directed is a moot thing when you yourself write that fascism is an ideology that should be protected. Most other people have argued that it shouldn't and that CCD is and/or harbours such. Ergo, a valid thread topic.

But, I've here a piece of SC legislation which explicitly states that the SC believes it is not their place to dictate what ideologies are acceptable, unless you can produce such a piece of legislation which states the opposite, I'm sticking with SC#38.

Lord Dominator wrote:At least one of Nazi Europe's condemns, all three of the present offensive liberations (KR, NE, and CCD), probably some others, we have a couple commends that cite promotion of a gameplay ideology (and one condemn for promoting a different one), and literally every R/D C&C is a Gameplay ideology related.

That's all well and good, but the only thing that will change the fact that the SC has legislated that it can't use ideology as the sole reasoning for a resolution is it legislating the opposite.

Sure it can, we don't have rules against resolutions contradicting each other here.

Well firstly, the issue I take is that the only justification you've used is your claim that the CCD is fascist. And I'd remind you that your liberation has likewise had no mechanical effect and wouldn't even serve the purpose you intended for it, since a person would have to read the resolution in order to understand why the badge exists on the CCD page. This renders the purpose of the resolution 'to warn both Confederation of Corrupt Dictators and future regions from promoting fascism, other such ideologies, and blatant use of this Assembly as recruitment and ego-boosting; unknown to most people. Whereas a Condemnation may have given nations an inkling of what was going on without having to have read the resolution.

Lord Dominator wrote:Aside from the fact that I don't expect people ever read any of the badges after they're passed, a Liberations present non-effect is still more than the effect than a Condemnation can ever have.

That makes no sense whatsoever, presently, neither would have any mechanical effect. And in order for the liberation to be at all useful, Jocospor would have to leave the site, whilst passing to delegacy to another nation and the Confederation would have to greatly shrink. These alone are unlikely to take place. So, you can either have a noticeable, clear and obvious sign that the region in question is disapproved of by the World at large, or you can have a badge which might as well read 'non-threatening' with a mechanical effect that has an extremely low probability of ever being useful.

False, it already has and will have greater mechanical effect once Jocospor is gone, namely removing the ability of the delegate to password the region. After that, well we Gameplayers will go to work and I can assure you that it doesn't matter how big it is.

This is not a complaint that it's not a normal liberation, the complaint is that it doesn't meet the definition of a liberation resolution. And furthermore, there is a no mechanical effect to the liberation.

Lord Dominator wrote:It meets the definition of a Liberation resolution, that is it prohibits the regional delegate from imposing a regional password (which, while presently a useless effect is still an effect).

Let me rephrase that, it meets the definition of a liberation resolution but has no purpose, as long as the liberation in not affecting the confederation it is purposeless and therefore, should not exist, or even have been passed.

It is not purposeless, just as any Liberation on a foundered region is not purposeless.

Lord Dominator wrote:

And why won't it pass?

Because the major delegates won't vote For it (in any significant capacity)?

Lord Dominator wrote:Only three pages to regress to whataboutism, that's cool

It never takes long.