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[Draft] Repeal: Liberate Confederation of Corrupt Dictators

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Jocospor
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:27 am

OOC: You all make me laugh. Believe what you want to believe. The offer is always up for you to send a puppet down our way. Should you do so, you'll come to realise just how terribly you misjudged us. :hug:
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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Heraswed
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:04 am

NB. The following clauses have been added to the draft,
Further Asserting that of common qualities of a Fascist state the CCD is only in alignment with Authoritarianism,
Therefore Believing that there is not sufficient evidence to condemn the CCD as 'Fascist',
Understanding that Section 1, Article 1 of the 'Rights and Duties of WA Nations' (GA#2) states that 'Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government',
Believing that SC#263 is in violation of GA#2,
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Syberis
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Syberis » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:04 am

Jocospor wrote:OOC: You all make me laugh. Believe what you want to believe. The offer is always up for you to send a puppet down our way. Should you do so, you'll come to realise just how terribly you misjudged us. :hug:


Already did, didn't see anything that changed my opinion. Sorry bud.
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Drop Your Pants
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:15 am

Heraswed wrote:NB. The following clauses have been added to the draft,
Further Asserting that of common qualities of a Fascist state the CCD is only in alignment with Authoritarianism,
Therefore Believing that there is not sufficient evidence to condemn the CCD as 'Fascist',
Understanding that Section 1, Article 1 of the 'Rights and Duties of WA Nations' (GA#2) states that 'Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government',
Believing that SC#263 is in violation of GA#2,

We don't care about the GA in here, its a separate body (and entirely IC).

If we followed the GA to the letter then raiding would be out the window pretty quick :P
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New Bremerton
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Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:20 am

My views regarding offensive liberations have shifted somewhat. While I'm still not opposed to ideological liberations of regions for purely GP/IRL reasons, I prefer to set the evidentiary bar very high. I don't know if the CCD rises to the level of being outright IRL fascists promoting actual hatred and bigotry, thereby justifying an offensive liberation.

The telegram that many people frequently cite as "evidence" of their alleged Nazi tendencies is written IC. They have also included communism as one of their tags, leading me to believe that they are merely an edgy RP authoritarian region rather than a region run by IRL fascists, although it certainly is possible that members of the CCD may be actual fascists. No one would call themselves "corrupt dictators" IRL. I consider offensive raids and liberations based solely on RP ideology to be a particularly egregious form of griefing.

To be fair, Joco and the CCD haven't really helped their cause either. They have done nothing but annoy the NS community at large with their self-commendations and self-aggrandizing TGs. The liberation was kind of deserved. Kind of. Would I have voted for it knowing what I know now? I don't know. At the time, it all just seemed like a witch hunt being waged by NSLeft against anyone that they consider to be fascists regardless of what others may think, and I don't like that their way of fighting against what they hate is to become what they hate.

So for now, I'll be ABSTAINing if this repeal attempt goes to vote. The CCD really needs to clean up its act if they want me to support this.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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USS Monitor
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19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:23 am

Jocospor wrote:
Yokiria wrote:Anything we could gain from Jocospor's greater knowledge about the subject is nullified by the fact he has no credibility what-so-ever.

OOC: No credibility? Golly, and I didn't even claim that communism never killed more than ten million. How 'bout that?! Look, if you're so curious, send a puppet nation to the Confederation and see for yourself. I'm sure what you find will cause you extreme embarrassment. (Actually...that might be an...interesting initiative...welcome to the "Jocospor has an Idea!" show...)


Having a puppet in CCD would cause many people extreme embarrassment.
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Blood Wine
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Blood Wine » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:44 am

Heraswed wrote:NB. The following clauses have been added to the draft,
Further Asserting that of common qualities of a Fascist state the CCD is only in alignment with Authoritarianism,
Therefore Believing that there is not sufficient evidence to condemn the CCD as 'Fascist',
Understanding that Section 1, Article 1 of the 'Rights and Duties of WA Nations' (GA#2) states that 'Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government',
Believing that SC#263 is in violation of GA#2,



Are you trying to make us laugh? because you're doing a amazing job :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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New Bremerton
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:57 am

USS Monitor wrote:
Jocospor wrote:OOC: No credibility? Golly, and I didn't even claim that communism never killed more than ten million. How 'bout that?! Look, if you're so curious, send a puppet nation to the Confederation and see for yourself. I'm sure what you find will cause you extreme embarrassment. (Actually...that might be an...interesting initiative...welcome to the "Jocospor has an Idea!" show...)


Having a puppet in CCD would cause many people extreme embarrassment.


I used to have an RP authoritarian puppet of no particular ideology in the CCD. It was the name of the region, "Corrupt Dictators", that appealed to me, not whatever ideology they allegedly promote IRL or ICly. The vote to liberate CCD was the reason my puppet moved to The Dictatorial Paradise, despite not being a WA nation, let alone an active raider. TDP was gracious enough to allow my puppet to stay despite this.
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Bedetopia
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Bedetopia » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:40 am

Heraswed wrote:NB. The following clauses have been added to the draft,
Further Asserting that of common qualities of a Fascist state the CCD is only in alignment with Authoritarianism,
Therefore Believing that there is not sufficient evidence to condemn the CCD as 'Fascist',
Understanding that Section 1, Article 1 of the 'Rights and Duties of WA Nations' (GA#2) states that 'Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government',
Believing that SC#263 is in violation of GA#2,


I'm afraid it doesn't bode well for your proposal if you stubbornly add arguments that the majority disapproves of.

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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:09 pm

NB: The following Clauses have been removed from the Draft
Asserting that it is not the place of the World Assembly to dictate the propriety of a political ideology to emerging nations, as recognised in SC#38,
Understanding that Section 1, Article 1 of the 'Rights and Duties of WA Nations' (GA#2) states that 'Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government',
Believing that SC#263 is in violation of GA#2,
Last edited by Heraswed on Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:10 pm

Bedetopia wrote:
Heraswed wrote:NB. The following clauses have been added to the draft,
Further Asserting that of common qualities of a Fascist state the CCD is only in alignment with Authoritarianism,
Therefore Believing that there is not sufficient evidence to condemn the CCD as 'Fascist',
Understanding that Section 1, Article 1 of the 'Rights and Duties of WA Nations' (GA#2) states that 'Every WA Member State has the right to independence and hence to exercise freely, without dictation by any other NationState, all its legal powers, including the choice of its own form of government',
Believing that SC#263 is in violation of GA#2,


I'm afraid it doesn't bode well for your proposal if you stubbornly add arguments that the majority disapproves of.


I apologise if I came across as stubborn. I'll try to be more receptive of criticism henceforth.
Last edited by Heraswed on Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:49 pm

Unfortunately, even if the "are they for reals fascists or not?" debate were to be clearly settled, a repeal of the liberation is likely to fail not necessarily on any particular ideological grounds, but because CCD has basically poisoned the well with the community at large with antics like the previously-mentioned self-commendation attempts. Long story short is that their conduct has seriously soured the way a sizable slice of the community looks at the region and a lot of people are likely to vote against a repeal simply because they really dislike the region and/or several of its members. The allegations of being Nazis/fascists/sympathizers is really just the icing on the cake.

Folks have offered CCD leadership lots of solutions and ways to settle the fascist-or-not issue, but there hasn't been any movement from CCD's leadership on trying to mend the damage already done to their PR by their World Assembly proposal antics. The self-aggrandizement via repeated self-commend attempts, the barrage of campaign telegrams almost to rulebreaking excess whenever they're trying to push a proposal (often one that has barely seen time on the drafting forum for critique and polishing), CCD's apparent hate-on for Imperium Anglorum and complaining about some sort of WA Illuminati... that sort of thing gets to be really irritating to the community and just cements in a strong dislike and obstructionist attitude toward anything they're involved in. Sad to say for instance, there are people who have voted against proposals Jocospor submitted without any regard to the actual contents of the proposal, simply because he's annoyed them so much that they just don't want to see him get n resolution author badge. The existing PR nightmare is probably the single greatest obstacle to a repeal of the liberation passing, and that's not something you can fix.

All that being said though, props on taking the time drafting and getting feedback from folks. The WA has a stupidly steep learning curve, and you've selected an extremely difficult topic to try and tackle for what appears at a quick glance to be your first attempt at an SC proposal.
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Heraswed
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:13 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, even if the "are they for reals fascists or not?" debate were to be clearly settled, a repeal of the liberation is likely to fail not necessarily on any particular ideological grounds, but because CCD has basically poisoned the well with the community at large with antics like the previously-mentioned self-commendation attempts. Long story short is that their conduct has seriously soured the way a sizable slice of the community looks at the region and a lot of people are likely to vote against a repeal simply because they really dislike the region and/or several of its members. The allegations of being Nazis/fascists/sympathizers is really just the icing on the cake.

Folks have offered CCD leadership lots of solutions and ways to settle the fascist-or-not issue, but there hasn't been any movement from CCD's leadership on trying to mend the damage already done to their PR by their World Assembly proposal antics. The self-aggrandizement via repeated self-commend attempts, the barrage of campaign telegrams almost to rulebreaking excess whenever they're trying to push a proposal (often one that has barely seen time on the drafting forum for critique and polishing), CCD's apparent hate-on for Imperium Anglorum and complaining about some sort of WA Illuminati... that sort of thing gets to be really irritating to the community and just cements in a strong dislike and obstructionist attitude toward anything they're involved in. Sad to say for instance, there are people who have voted against proposals Jocospor submitted without any regard to the actual contents of the proposal, simply because he's annoyed them so much that they just don't want to see him get n resolution author badge. The existing PR nightmare is probably the single greatest obstacle to a repeal of the liberation passing, and that's not something you can fix.

All that being said though, props on taking the time drafting and getting feedback from folks. The WA has a stupidly steep learning curve, and you've selected an extremely difficult topic to try and tackle for what appears at a quick glance to be your first attempt at an SC proposal.


OOC: Well thanks. Is it really that obvious that this is my first proposal?
Regardless, I agree that more could be done to sort out this whole fascism debacle once and for all. But I really don't see that happening anytime soon. If there's one thing I definitely agree with it's that I've seen resolutions in the time I've been here where I got the distinct feeling that few who voted actually read it, such as IA's latest GA resolution, but that's besides the point.
Maybe in a few months/years/decades there'll be a better climate for a proposal such as this one.
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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:53 pm

Heraswed wrote:OOC: Well thanks. Is it really that obvious that this is my first proposal?

You post count generally makes it a bit obvious :p
(Also, posts in the SC are assumed OOC by default, you don't really need the OOC tag)
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Jocospor
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Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Jocospor » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:36 pm

Reploid Productions wrote:Unfortunately, even if the "are they for reals fascists or not?" debate were to be clearly settled, a repeal of the liberation is likely to fail not necessarily on any particular ideological grounds, but because CCD has basically poisoned the well with the community at large with antics like the previously-mentioned self-commendation attempts. Long story short is that their conduct has seriously soured the way a sizable slice of the community looks at the region and a lot of people are likely to vote against a repeal simply because they really dislike the region and/or several of its members. The allegations of being Nazis/fascists/sympathizers is really just the icing on the cake.

Folks have offered CCD leadership lots of solutions and ways to settle the fascist-or-not issue, but there hasn't been any movement from CCD's leadership on trying to mend the damage already done to their PR by their World Assembly proposal antics. The self-aggrandizement via repeated self-commend attempts, the barrage of campaign telegrams almost to rulebreaking excess whenever they're trying to push a proposal (often one that has barely seen time on the drafting forum for critique and polishing), CCD's apparent hate-on for Imperium Anglorum and complaining about some sort of WA Illuminati... that sort of thing gets to be really irritating to the community and just cements in a strong dislike and obstructionist attitude toward anything they're involved in. Sad to say for instance, there are people who have voted against proposals Jocospor submitted without any regard to the actual contents of the proposal, simply because he's annoyed them so much that they just don't want to see him get n resolution author badge. The existing PR nightmare is probably the single greatest obstacle to a repeal of the liberation passing, and that's not something you can fix.

All that being said though, props on taking the time drafting and getting feedback from folks. The WA has a stupidly steep learning curve, and you've selected an extremely difficult topic to try and tackle for what appears at a quick glance to be your first attempt at an SC proposal.

OOC: There are truths in this, and there are also fallacies. Poisoning the well, true. Barrage of campaign telegrams, true (and I like you refrained from using the word "spam"). There hasn't been any movement from the Confederation's leadership, false. Scroll up to find the truth. The insinuation that we don't draft our proposals for long on the forum, that's another false. My recent repeal of I.A.'s commend was drafted for near a month, and all that was met with was not actual critique but along the lines of "Lewl Jukespurr's a fashhhy fuk u!!" Alternatively, my very first resolution, before I knew anything about the operation of the World Assembly, was only defeated because a large number of people pulled the whole "No draft, no vote" crap. If I have poisoned the well, as you say, concerning this matter specifically I'm not sure where you want the line drawn.

USS Monitor wrote:Having a puppet in CCD would cause many people extreme embarrassment.


I'm sure your reputation can cope. Go on, send a puppet, find out what life in the Confederation is like for yourself. Since I can 100% guarantee you will not attend any book burnings, I'm not so sure what you're afraid of.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | OFFICE OF THE VICEROY | DELEGATE'S OFFICE
JOCOSPOR | FOREIGN AFFAIRS OFFICE


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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:50 pm

First impressions count a lot in the GP and SC arena, and the first several attempts you and your regionmates made weren't drafted forumside, or appeared very briefly and with considerable resistance to feedback given. While you've made lots of claims to be fixing things, or that things are cleaned up... clearly those efforts are not especially noticeable if people are still riding your case about it. Promises and grand statements are one thing, but if there isn't visible action to go with them, they won't count for much. Given the reactions in the thread, apparently what measures you have taken thus far have not yet been sufficient to overcome all the bad blood from those earlier attempts.

Unfortunately, I'm no PR expert, so I've little I can offer in way of suggestions to mend those broken bridges. =/
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Heraswed
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:58 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Heraswed wrote:OOC: Well thanks. Is it really that obvious that this is my first proposal?

You post count generally makes it a bit obvious :p
(Also, posts in the SC are assumed OOC by default, you don't really need the OOC tag)


OOC: Thanks, I'll bear that in mind.
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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:15 am

Heraswed wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:You post count generally makes it a bit obvious :p
(Also, posts in the SC are assumed OOC by default, you don't really need the OOC tag)


OOC: Thanks, I'll bear that in mind.

You would be welcome
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Heraswed
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:11 pm

If I were to propose this, would it better to wait until the current proposals by Hallor are out of vote or not?
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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Heraswed wrote:If I were to propose this, would it better to wait until the current proposals by Hallor are out of vote or not?

Probably doesn't matter, seeing as they don't seem to have run an approval campaign
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:55 pm

Very well, if there are no more pertinent discussions to be had, I'll submit this at 22:00 (GMT).
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Kuriko
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Kuriko » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:47 pm

Heraswed wrote:Very well, if there are no more pertinent discussions to be had, I'll submit this at 22:00 (GMT).

*Waves hand* I have one pertinent thing. Can you please put spaces between your clauses? Its driving me bat crazy!!
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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:06 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Heraswed wrote:Very well, if there are no more pertinent discussions to be had, I'll submit this at 22:00 (GMT).

*Waves hand* I have one pertinent thing. Can you please put spaces between your clauses? Its driving me bat crazy!!

Very much this, standard formatting is amazing.

Also, there is a [list] tag if you need it
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Heraswed
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Founded: Aug 11, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:13 pm

Kuriko wrote:
Heraswed wrote:Very well, if there are no more pertinent discussions to be had, I'll submit this at 22:00 (GMT).

*Waves hand* I have one pertinent thing. Can you please put spaces between your clauses? Its driving me bat crazy!!

I'll make sure that there are spaces. It's been kinda getting on my OCD as well.
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Heraswed
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Heraswed » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:20 pm

Ok, this is embarrassing (and highlights how novel this all is to me). On theProposals page I cannot find how to submit a repeal resolution, can anyone help?
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