NATION

PASSWORD

[DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.
User avatar
Kostrorleauny
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 57
Founded: Feb 10, 2018
Right-wing Utopia

[DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Kostrorleauny » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:07 pm

Security Council Resolution #27X

Image
Commend Morrdh
Category: Commendation | Nominee: Morrdh | Proposed by: Kostrorleauny


The Security Council,

Achnowledging the Commonwealth of Morrdh as being a State historically committed to the works of a more perfect world; those of which aligning with the World Assembly's mission.

Highlighting the Commonwealth of Morrdh’s staunch commitment towards upholding national sovereignty on a regional level within Greater Dienstad, as can be seen via the display of various humanitarian efforts assumed by Morridane establishments.

Noting the campaigns of the Commonwealth of Morrdh to remove atomic weapons from its own arsenal and act in the spirit of promoting a tone of peace and prosperity on a universal scale by moving towards nuclear disarmament.

Praising the creation of the Commonwealth Colonial Authority (CCA); a multinational organization that sought to better equip and prepare the world on Earth for space travel and exploration into the next half-century by offering up programmes such as the "Weymouth Project" (Agricultural Research) and the conduction of joint space operations with allied nations..

Admiring the Commonwealth of Morrdh's unwavering loyalty and consistent allegiance to its fellow anti-slavery front-esqué allies such as The Macabees, Lamoni, Lyras, Imbrinium, Holy Marsh (The Grand Theocracy), and The Holy Empire (Stevid).

Accentuating the many militaristic and diplomatic undertakings of the Commonwealth that have sought to combat the forces of racial discrimination, human rights negligence, and the trade of human lives in the form of un-indentured slavery. As can be seen by:

  • The Morridane Government’s condemnation of United World Order (UWO), a nation that was later officially condemned by the World Assembly at large via SCR#272 "Condemn United World Order", for the passage of chauvinistic legislation in the Fourth Reich indexing known as the “Berlina Race Accords”.

  • The passage of the "Anti-Slavery Act 2012" through the State's Parliament, a legislative piece that replaced the previously enacted "Human Trafficking Act 1971", that of which effectively granted the Royal Morridane Navy permission to board and seize any slaver vessel it encounters, freeing its victims/captives and depositing the ship's incumbent crew in the nearest neutral plot.

  • The pioneering of naval patrol initiatives on an extensive scale within Greater Dienstad on behalf of the Commonwealth, procuring efforts which were declared with the intent to better oppose the trading operatives of known slaveholder nations such as Ralkovia and The Scandinvans.

  • The sinking of death ships (slaver vessels) belonging to The Kraven Corporation, a nation previously condemned by the World Assembly via SCR#61 "Condemn The Kraven Corporation", on the part of the Royal Morridane Navy for their repeated activities that lead to a demoralization of human rights trafficking.

  • The Commonwealth of Morrdh’s deployment of carrier groups containing fighter escorts into international waters in response to the Protectorate of Dukopolious’ territorial claims upon New Empire, those of which were regarded as the actions of an aggressor in an imperialistic-driven campaign of annexation that when given the chance to resolve things diplomatically failed to do as such.

Observant of the continued steadfast judgement that the Commonwealth holds dear in the face of adversity and international diplomatic disharmony; often electing to offer nations in violation of civil rights abuses the chance to stand down and desist before preemptive military actions are taken.

Believing that the core principles of the Commonwealth of Morrdh, a Constitutional Monarchy with a democratically-elected government, as described and outlined herein, are reflective of the exuberant will in peacekeeping that the World Assembly seeks to further. As such, we - the nations of this body herein assembled - would do well to observe these values and preserve them in text inscribed for future regimes to emulate.

Hereby commends Morrdh.




Round two, everyone! You know the drill!

No, but really, on a more serious note: No Security Council proposal is perfect, it's an impossible feat to achieve and I understand this. As such, I figured I would go ahead and present this in draft form simply because I am in search of ways to improve it and make it a better proposal overall.

Last time 'round you were used to me "drafting" up a previously refined proposal, but that is not the case with this. In truth, I can see some rough patches in here, maybe some things that others think could be worded a bit better. That's why I'm here, really. To gain that feedback, and hopefully to give another RolePlayer the distinction that they deserve in the long run.

So, that being said, I re-affirm my intentions to offer up well-written and well-thought out proposals on a consistent basis for you all. It is only with feedback that I will find myself capable of doing so once more, so I look to the Security Council's insight on this one because I'm curious as to how this draft will be received. Thank you in advance.
Last edited by Kostrorleauny on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Crimson Commune: An Overview (IC)
Aspiring RolePlayer of Greater Dienstad
Protege of The Macabees
Kostrorleauny#7543 on Discord
Perfectly Pessimistic, a Cynical
NPO Delenda Est

Secretary of World Assembly Affairs (Pacifica)
Assistant Minister of Community Affairs in RolePlay (Pacifica)
Proud Author of SCR#274
Member of the Pacifica External Affairs Committee

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 am

Hi Kostrorleauny,

Morrdh is a great writer/established roleplayer, but at this stage there are many other more deserving RP commendation/condemnation candidates than Morrdh the RP nation. Also, links to actual threads/posts of the candidates' RP/writing would be a good thing, so we can actually see the writing/record to judge whether the candidate deserves a commendation/condemnation

At this stage, all I'm seeing is just your words, and I don't know whether they are real or not. Anyone can say fancy things, but they need to be backed by evidence. Otherwise they are just that - empty words.

This RP commendation/condemnation has potential, but I think that you're overreaching it here (just a wee bit). This is starting to feel like friends giving commendation/condemnation badges to those they are well acquainted with, without evidence that the c/c is justified
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Kostrorleauny
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 57
Founded: Feb 10, 2018
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Kostrorleauny » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:13 am

Yohannes wrote:Hi Kostrorleauny,

Morrdh is a great writer/established roleplayer, but at this stage there are many other more deserving RP commendation/condemnation candidates than Morrdh the RP nation. Also, links to actual threads/posts of the candidates' RP/writing would be a good thing, so we can actually see the writing/record to judge whether the candidate deserves a commendation/condemnation

At this stage, all I'm seeing is just your words, and I don't know whether they are real or not. Anyone can say fancy things, but they need to be backed by evidence. Otherwise they are just that - empty words.

This RP commendation/condemnation has potential, but I think that you're overreaching it here (just a wee bit). This is starting to feel like friends giving commendation/condemnation badges to those they are well acquainted with, without evidence that the c/c is justified

I can come to understand your hesitance here on supporting such a commendation, so please do allow me to take the appropriate measures to reassure you of the validity of the arguments presented as to why the nominee ought to be commended. That being the case, I am more than happy to offer up contextual evidence that supports my words as herein written and described through this draft so that all others may read the posts of Morrdh themselves.

Reference:

Anti-Slavery Efforts:

Multi-regional war against Ralkovia - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=206666&hilit=morrdh
Condemning Orderite Warmongery/Calling for Anti-Slavery Taskforce - viewtopic.php?p=32984418#p32984418
Royal Morrdaine Navy patrols against slavery- viewtopic.php?p=34076987#p34076987
Passage of Anti-Slavery Act 2012/Enabling seizure of slave ships- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=197821
Detail of what Kraven Corporation's death ships were- viewtopic.php?p=33995502#p33995502
Public Condemnation of the United World Order over the passage of the "Berlina Race Accords"- viewtopic.php?p=29015617#p29015617

Opposing Imperialism and Invasion (General Goodwill):

Supporting Mokastana/Opposing UWO's invasion of the former Red Star Union- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=386092
Sending a convoy Morrdaine-flagged ships to rescue refugees from Holy Panooly- viewtopic.php?p=21629841#p2129841
Undertaking of humanitarian efforts in Holy Panooly against the Orderite invasion of UWO- viewtopic.php?p=21656093#p21656093
The Commonwealth Colonial Authority (CCA) lending aid to other nations- viewtopic.php?p=18510191#p18510191
Opposing Dukopian incursions into New Empire/Reject the claim that New Empire is anarchic and lawless- viewtopic.php?p=8876979#p8876979
Detail of military mobilization against Dukopian oppressors in New Empire- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=190549
Detail of the joint Morridane-Stevidian forces that thwarted an attempted invasion of the lands of New Empire- viewtopic.php?f=5&t=232683

Miscellaneous:

Sent forces to Gholgoth as part of the Scand war, supporting the anti-slavery front- Searching Documentation
Last edited by Kostrorleauny on Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Crimson Commune: An Overview (IC)
Aspiring RolePlayer of Greater Dienstad
Protege of The Macabees
Kostrorleauny#7543 on Discord
Perfectly Pessimistic, a Cynical
NPO Delenda Est

Secretary of World Assembly Affairs (Pacifica)
Assistant Minister of Community Affairs in RolePlay (Pacifica)
Proud Author of SCR#274
Member of the Pacifica External Affairs Committee

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:35 am

Hi Kostrorleauny,

Excellent links! By reading the links (and Morrdh's in-character posts/writing), I can see that Morrdh the RPed nation has been involved in many in-character threads - some involving the notorious Empire of Ralkovia, a slaver nation (and notorious invader) condemned by the World Assembly previously, and The Scandinvans, another well-known (and notorious) International Incidents empire from 2009-2014

Although I still believe that a Commend Morrdh is a wee bit early, you've convinced me! Support, vouched and hoping the best of luck with the Commend Morrdh proposal!

Edit: Withdrew my support. Now I can see that this proposal is just full of fluff and empty words. This proposal (and if it is to be passed as a resolution) is a huge disservice to the contributions/work of other distinguished RP nations and RP regions. It is clear that the author of this proposal has no clue at all and is not well acquainted with the NS forum RPing communities, and is focusing their effort solely on Greater Dienstad and its brand of Post-Modern Technology RP. I cannot in good conscience support this proposal. Opposed.
Last edited by Yohannes on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Kostrorleauny
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 57
Founded: Feb 10, 2018
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Kostrorleauny » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:30 pm

Yohannes wrote:Hi Kostrorleauny,

Excellent links! By reading the links (and Morrdh's in-character posts/writing), I can see that Morrdh the RPed nation has been involved in many in-character threads - some involving the notorious Empire of Ralkovia, a slaver nation (and notorious invader) condemned by the World Assembly previously, and The Scandinvans, another well-known (and notorious) International Incidents empire from 2009-2014

Although I still believe that a Commend Morrdh is a wee bit early, you've convinced me! Support, vouched and hoping the best of luck with the Commend Morrdh proposal!

I had originally intended to reply to this shortly after it was posted, but nonetheless, thank you for the support. Feedback like this - it is greatly appreciated, especially at this juncture in the draft's status. What that status is exactly is highly dependent upon the current backlog of proposals in the Security Council's queue currently, however, I have decided to apply a final round of minor corrections and then I will be submitting this piece and campaigning for it (more than likely later tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest).

The first change that I will be making as it regards to this draft's current form is I'll be scrubbing off the part about the Commonwealth Colonial Authority (CCA) operating off of the Black Knight Network project. As per the request of Morrdh themselves, that project is actually a secret and is classified IC; as such I see no reasoning for it to remain in the text of this proposal and it will instead be replaced by wording pertinent to a more generalized statement such as the "conduction of joint space operations with allied nations".

This reflection in wording changes may be viewed below >>>

Praising the creation of the Commonwealth Colonial Authority (CCA); a multinational organization that sought to better equip and prepare the world on Earth for space travel and exploration into the next half-century by offering up programmes such as the "Weymouth Project" (Agricultural Research) and the "Black Knight Project" (Fleet Supply and Aggressions Detterance) the conduction of joint space operations with allied nations..


Secondly, at the suggestion of Lord Dominator and Imperium Anglorum, I will be shortening the abbreviations for passed Security Council resolutions from being written out fully into a more concise format. Hence, "The Morridane Government’s condemnation of United World Order (UWO), a nation that was later officially condemned by the World Assembly at large via Security Council resolution number two-hundred and seventy-two entitled “Condemn United World Order”, for the passage of chauvinistic legislation in the Fourth Reich indexing known as the “Berlina Race Accords”." becomes "The Morridane Government’s condemnation of United World Order (UWO), a nation that was later officially condemned by the World Assembly at large via SCR#272 "Condemn United World Order", for the passage of chauvinistic legislation in the Fourth Reich indexing known as the “Berlina Race Accords”.

And, "The sinking of death ships (slaver vessels) belonging to The Kraven Corporation, a nation previously condemned by the World Assembly via Security Council resolution number sixty-one entitled "Condemn The Kraven Corporation", on the part of the Royal Morridane Navy for their repeated activities that lead to a demoralization of human rights trafficking. becomes "The sinking of death ships (slaver vessels) belonging to The Kraven Corporation, a nation previously condemned by the World Assembly via SCR#61 "Condemn The Kraven Corporation", on the part of the Royal Morridane Navy for their repeated activities that lead to a demoralization of human rights trafficking.

Lastly, as an added bonus I figured I would add a clause that referenced the Commonwealth's campaigns at nuclear disarmament in the spirit of promoting universal peace and prosperity for all. As such, that clause will read as follows:

Noting the campaigns of the Commonwealth of Morrdh to remove atomic weapons from its own arsenal and act in the spirit of promoting a tone of peace and prosperity on a universal scale by moving towards nuclear disarmament.


Should any of you find yourselves in need of documented proof for these campaigns, you'd be able to find them here and here. For now, that is all.
Last edited by Kostrorleauny on Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Crimson Commune: An Overview (IC)
Aspiring RolePlayer of Greater Dienstad
Protege of The Macabees
Kostrorleauny#7543 on Discord
Perfectly Pessimistic, a Cynical
NPO Delenda Est

Secretary of World Assembly Affairs (Pacifica)
Assistant Minister of Community Affairs in RolePlay (Pacifica)
Proud Author of SCR#274
Member of the Pacifica External Affairs Committee

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:10 pm

Hi Kostrorleauny,

A day? I hope you're not serious, right?

I'd recommend for you to wait for a month at least. I'll be honest with you and say that almost nothing in this proposal is special. There are many other Roleplayed nations on NationStates that have done many things that you have stated in this proposal

I want to ask you the following question: why should Morrdh be commended, but not other nations that have literally done the exact same thing?

Many of the things that you have put inside this proposal are referring to the 2011-2014 days. This is 2019, not 2014. And beside, this is not a "Commend Lyras". Lyras was a whole special commendation subject - it was very much well deserved.

Once again, I'd recommend for you to wait. I will be honest and say that I can tell you're rushing this through (for reasons unknown to me). You're not well acquainted with the RP communities (and I can see that now by reading this proposal; it's full of fluff and devoid of anything special)

You're completely ignoring the contributions of many other nations from other distinguished roleplaying regions, and focusing your effort solely on Greater Dienstad and its post-modern technology side of RPing. And that is unfair. That is unfair for many other roleplayers that have written amazing things on this sub-forum.

You're making this out as if this proposal refers to a very special thing - it is not. Before you try to commend more nations, I'd suggest for you to branch out and learn more about the RPing forum communities on NationStates and try to see the dynamics behind the communities. Otherwise as I've said, you're trying to do a very good thing here (and I thank you very much for your time and dedication!), but you're doing an injustice to many other distinguished roleplayers/roleplayed nations/regions/subjects out there

That said, if you're still going to go ahead with this tomorrow, I will not oppose your move. I have said my piece, you have your side of the story too!

Edit: And I'm very sad to see that certain players from positions of officially given authority who should know better have been silent through this whole thing. It may benefit your region - but what's happening here is a huge disservice to other distinguished RPed nations and RP regional communities out there. To those players - you know who you are. You can do the right thing, or you can be silent and let the benefits roll your way. With powers come responsibilities
Last edited by Yohannes on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:41 pm

Kostrorleauny wrote:Should any of you find yourselves in need of documented proof for these campaigns, you'd be able to find them here and here. For now, that is all.


That is a terrible link/RP record. Let me show you why it is terrible:

Morrdh wrote:
Last Morridane Nuclear Unit Disbands


Morrdun - The Morridane Ministry of Defence was announced that the Morridane Armed Forces' last nuclear unit, the Royal Morridane Air Force's No.94 Maintenance Unit, has been disbanded.

The disbandment comes almost two years after the Commonwealth declared that it would move towards nuclear disarmament, effectively achieving Prime Minister Edmund Vermillion's pledge to remove atomic weapons from the Commonwealth's arsenal. As the Commonwealth's last remaining nuclear unit, No.94 Maintenance Unit's job was to oversee and carrying out the safe disposal of the Morridane Armed Force's nuclear warheads. No. 94 MU's task involved the collection of the Morridane Armed Force's nuclear warheads and transportation to a central site for disposal, a task praised by the Unit's commanding officer Wing Commander Charles White.

It is understand that an international team of inspectors from Stevid, Lamoni and Macabees are to be invited to verify the Commonwealth's complete and utter nuclear disarmament as well as making sure the disposal was done safely in accordance with international law.


Morrdh wrote:The Morridane Ministry of Defence was announced that the Morridane Armed Forces' last nuclear unit, the Royal Morridane Air Force's No.94 Maintenance Unit, has been disbanded.


"was announced" should be "has announced". If you're going to provide a written evidence of why a subject nation should be commended, you should ideally not provide one with typos/poor RPing and one that is almost lacking in substance. Anyone can write something like that post. It is basically: "My navy do [xx] and [xx].


Is this the new standard of RP commendation/condemnation? I hope not -- because that is sad.

I don't need to check your other links/evidence. I can tell already they will be nothing special. As I've said, you really need to wait (for a month at least) and think twice before submitting this proposal. You've done amazing things with "Commend Lyras" - it was actually!

Don't rush this thing through, and wait for a wee while. There's no harm done with waiting.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Kuriko
Diplomat
 
Posts: 513
Founded: Oct 31, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Kuriko » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:58 pm

Hey Yohannes, nice to see you posting. I was actually telling the author in discord they should wait longer than a day before you posted :p. I've been mainly silent here because, unfortunately, I don't know enough about the RP community of NS to make good posts and give good feedback.
Delegate of the 10000 Islands
LOVEWHOYOUARE~
Citizen of the 10000 Islands and The Rejected Realms

Former TITO Tactical Officer
Former Commander of TGW, UDSAF, and FORGE
Proud founder of The Hole To Hide In
Person behind the Regional Officer resignation button
Person behind the Offsite Chat tag and the Jump Point tag
WA Character limit increase to 5,000 characters

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:24 am



My original post

Kuriko wrote:Hey Yohannes, nice to see you posting. I was actually telling the author in discord they should wait longer than a day before you posted :p. I've been mainly silent here because, unfortunately, I don't know enough about the RP community of NS to make good posts and give good feedback.


Hi Kuriko,

Oh no, I did not mean you or any of the big World Assembly delegates, Kuriko :p I mean those from within the RP communities (who know the NS forum RP communities well) who you should know better.

I've received the following telegram from the subject of the proposal:

Hey, just wanted a quick word with you regarding Kostrorleauny's current commendation effort.

First off, I've never had much involvement with the WA (or its original incarnation on the site) and so I am honesty clueless when it comes to its workings. When Kostrorleauny approached me I gave him links to whatever was useful to him.

I don't really know, he (far as I'm aware) only became involved with GD when he was doing Lyras' commendation. I do know some people like Macabees have been giving him advice, particularly after his anger and confusion at your reversal of support. Though I think he now understands your reasoning and he's said he's looking at completely rewriting his draft. Believe he's now looking at my efforts in P2TM for something with a wider remit than 'anti-slavery'.

Though I'm curious whether he should narrow his focus on the Commonwealth Colonial Authority (which he does mention in the commendation), which is a multi-national space organisation I've developed over the past few years and have gradually had other players join (admittedly from within GD). I've been planning on increasing its presence on NS and try to recruit from the wider community, but I suppose it could be used for something along the lines of promoting and furthering co-operation and innovation.

But you've got more experience with the WA than I, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.


I want to get to the bottom of this whole thing, because 1.) This is unfair for the rest of the forum RP communities, 2.) I take the above telegram as a way to silence my voice and to peer pressure me into approving this whole proposal, 3.) It seems beating around the bush will not be enough any longer.

I want to tell the N&I RP Mentors involved with Greater Dienstad that I'm very sad to have received the above message (it shows that my earliest nice/toned-down message wasn't working). Where are you? You guys know this whole thing is wrong right? Or do you put your region selfishly first before the RP communities?

And this last part really bothers me (it really does):

particularly after his anger and confusion at your reversal of support


I'm sorry... but what is that supposed to mean? Is that supposed to be a threat directed at me for voicing my criticism against the (clearly misguided) proposal? I feel like I'm being peer pressured to approve this whole thing/withdraw my opposition, and I want to let you know that that is wrong. You are not supposed to bully the opposition into acquiescence

Since it seems like Kostrorleauny will only listen to the opinion of Mentors from the RP communities (and will disregard the opinion of those who are not mentors from the RP communities), I will tell you, Kostrorleauny, that I was once a II Mentor too. In fact, I was one of the early II Mentors. What you are doing here is wrong and it feels like you trying to hand Greater Dienstad commendation badges after commendation/condemnation badges.

The best of the NS forum RP communities is much, much more than just Greater Dienstad, and you need to branch out more before giving more commendations to Greater Dienstad members. What you are doing here is wrong, and I'd recommend for you to wait for a month and branch out to other RP regions to learn about the NS forum RPing communities first.

---

Edit: You know what. I give up. What am I thinking, this is not my fight to fight anyway. This whole thing is none of my problem. I want to write in-character things, not be involved in out-of-character stuff. You do you. Give commendation badges after commendation badges to Greater Dienstad and its friends. NS is freeform and you can do anything you want. Good luck!

Edit2: Kostrorleauny, I just want you to know that you're not wrong. I commend you for your dedication (and hard work with this)! If there's anyone I'm disappointed with, it is not you (you are still a new NS forum rper, just like I was once too) -- it is the influential people who have the power to make a difference but have failed to do what is right

Edit3: After talking with Kostrorleauny on Discord, I was informed that a part that made Morrdh commend-worthy was because he was "once before been offered to be a Mentor himself but turned it down"

Edit 4: Unspoilered my original post

I knew some players (one who had mentored me patiently back in 2010) that voluntarily resigned from mentorship (because they were not being selfish and were not there for power/prestige). I don't see them being commended today. In fact, they have been completely ignored by the World Assembly (because many newer players didn't know they were mentors). In comparison to many other outstanding (who are also helpful) players from other RPing regions like The Western Isles and Rushmore, Morrdh is just an average writer, and he wasn't that helpful towards non-Greater Dienstad players. My opposition will stand.
Last edited by Yohannes on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:18 pm, edited 5 times in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Lamoni
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 6222
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:22 am

You are certainly welcome to suggest people and regions who should be commended, Yohannes. Alternatively, you could create commendations for them yourself.

With that being said, Kostrorleauny can certainly draft a commendation for Morrdh, if they wish. As always, it would then be up to the SC as to whether it passes or not.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM MOD!

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:44 am

Lamoni wrote:You are certainly welcome to suggest people and regions who should be commended, Yohannes. Alternatively, you could create commendations for them yourself.


With all due respect, you know as well as I do that those connected with Gameplay regions can do a lot of things in the Security Council sub-forum. And you also know very well what you're trying to do here. We see it with [I will not mention his name because he was DOS'd, and rightfully so]. We see it with Unibot being able to pass Commend Bergnovinaia back in 2010

This is a very dangerous territory Lamoni.

I can be silent and benefit from it in future, or I can say what I think is right and hope that many people will see the other side of the coin.

Lamoni wrote:With that being said, Kostrorleauny can certainly draft a commendation for Morrdh, if they wish.


I did not say that Kostrorleauny should not commend Morrdh. In fact, let me quote my prev. post in this thread:

Yohannes wrote:Don't rush this thing through, and wait for a wee while. There's no harm done with waiting.


Lamoni wrote:As always, it would then be up to the SC as to whether it passes or not.


You know the Delegate campaigning game more than me. You know how Roleplay has benefitted from having Gameplay connection more than me. We all know that this commendation proposal will pass - no matter if there are misleading stuff in it - so long as you and The Macabees campaign for it and promote it to the influential World Assembly Delegates (and their factions).

Lamoni, I want to ask the following question (and there's no right or wrong answer here; it's just down to which one we like more): should World Assembly Commendation/Condemnations for Roleplaying/recognition be given, or should they be earned instead by the subject of the c/c?

I believe that things like this should be earned - not given artificially. It should be given to people for recognition of their out-of-character and in-character achievements/contributions, not be given to friends at the drop of a hat. Did you know that Kostrorleauny was planning to submit the proposal just one day after he wrote the proposal here? Just one day. It took me at least a week (I think going by memory) to draft Commend The Macabees (and at least 2 months of preparation before that). And we're talking about The Macabees here (you know as much as I am how great his historical legacy/accomplishments are)

That said, I apologise for the tone of my prev. posts. I could have worded them more gently (and more understanding). However, I did see that my earlier gentle method did not work - and no RPers were brave enough (either that, or they simply don't pay attention to the SC) to speak out against this to present the other side - why this proposal is a bad idea.

Now, I could say "Yohannes is making this out too seriously/more than what it should be." But I believe that this is wrong - and I will criticise it. Could I have done it better? I don't know. Considering my nice/gentle method did not work (it instead resulted in Kostrorleauny wanting to submit the proposal the next day), I had no choice but to decisively and firmly say why I believe this proposal is wrong and is an injustice to the achievements of many wonderful RP writers out there

P.S. I was thinking of asking for a repeal of my commendation if this will come to pass. But I decided against it (or I will probably do it much later after this proposal will pass), because I don't want to do controversial things (not needed at all). I feel guilty having a commendation badge on me after seeing this whole thing happening. It made me realise that there are many other more deserving players out there (e.g. Van Luxemburg) and they should've been commended way before I was by Maltropia back in 2014.

And finally: my Discord conversation with Kostrorleauny (he can confirm this/provide record if required) basically come to the following conclusion: I will support his commendation proposal of Morrdh if the subject of the proposal (Morddh) will prove that he can be more active on NationStates. There needs to be the quality in-character writing to back up what the (final) proposal will say. Recognitions of excellence and service should be earned -- they should not be given/demanded/bought

Edit: Added things
Last edited by Yohannes on Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Lamoni
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 6222
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:06 am

With all due respect, you know as well as I do that those connected with Gameplay regions can do a lot of things in the Security Council sub-forum. And you also know very well what you're trying to do here. We see it with [I will not mention his name because he was DOS'd, and rightfully so]. We see it with Unibot being able to pass Commend Bergnovinaia back in 2010

This is a very dangerous territory Lamoni.


Anyone with two WA endorsements can propose a commend or condemn. That's nothing to do with how well liked the person proposing it might be, or with any moderation records that they might or might not have, that is due to how the game mechanics work. The person who is to be commended or condemned still has to have done enough things to be worthy of a commend or condemn, in the eyes of the Security Council. And if you are worried about voting blocks in the Security Council, they have been a fixture of the Security Council for as long as it has existed. It also doesn't mean that you can't pass something in the SC without WALL, this feat has been done several times.

I can be silent and benefit from it in future, or I can say what I think is right and hope that many people will see the other side of the coin.


No one was asking you to be silent, Yohannes. My two suggestions involved you speaking up, in fact.

I did not say that Kostrorleauny should not commend Morrdh.


You didn't explicitly say it, but you certainly were implying that it would be a bad thing to do.

In fact, let me quote my prev. post in this thread:

Yohannes wrote:
Don't rush this thing through, and wait for a wee while. There's no harm done with waiting.


This is not Kostrorleauny's first commend. I too speak with Kostrorleauny, and I already know that they know not to rush things when it comes to putting a commend together. This is further proven by the fact that Commend Morrdh is still in the drafting stage, instead of instantly being submitted. There is nothing wrong with giving advice to someone working on a commend/condemn, but nothing that Kostrorleauny has said here indicates that they would do anything but wait until they felt confident that they had the best possible draft before submitting it.

You know the Delegate campaigning game more than me. You know how Roleplay has benefitted from having Gameplay connection more than me. We all know that this commendation proposal will pass - no matter if there are misleading stuff in it - so long as you and The Macabees campaign for it and promote it to the influential World Assembly Delegates (and their factions).

Lamoni, I want to ask the following question (and there's no right or wrong answer here; it's just down to which one we like more): should World Assembly Commendation/Condemnations for Roleplaying/recognition be given, or should they be earned instead by the subject of the c/c?


As the mechanics dictate, commend/condemn attempts are written by Person A, for Person B. It is still incumbent upon Person B to have what the SC regards as sufficient accomplishments to allow for such an honor (and let us not kid ourselves, either one is an honor, just in different ways). In this manner, they still have to be earned by Person B; they aren't just handed out like candy. As I said earlier, WALL is not a magic passing vote for commend/condemn attempts. And to answer your question, I would never support any commend/condemn attempt that I did not think that the person involved had rightfully earned. I would have passed up on having Macabees commended, if I didn't think that he deserved it.

Did you know that Kostrorleauny was planning to submit the proposal just one day after he wrote the proposal here? Just one day.


No, I obviously did not know that Kostrorleauny was going to do that. If I had known that, I would have advised against it.

That said, I apologise for the tone of my prev. posts. I could have worded them more gently (and more understanding). However, I did see that my earlier gentle method did not work - and no RPers were brave enough (either that, or they simply don't pay attention to the SC) to speak out against this to present the other side - why this proposal is a bad idea.


I wouldn't say that the proposal for Morrdh is a bad idea in and of itself, I just think that more digging for information should be done, to see whether there is enough material for Morrdh to be worthy of the honor of a commend.

I was thinking of asking for a repeal of my commendation if this will come to pass. But I decided against it (or I will probably do it much later after this proposal will pass), because I don't want to do controversial things (not needed at all). I feel guilty having a commendation badge on me after seeing this whole thing happening. It made me realise that there are many other more deserving players out there (e.g. Van Luxemburg) and they should've been commended way before I was by Maltropia back in 2014.


If Morrdh's commendation passes, it will be because there will be enough material in his commend for the Security Council to judge it worthy, not because it was bought. You cannot just "buy" someone a commend, whether they are from Gameplay, Roleplay, Sports, or the other parts of the NS community. I think that it is an insult to the people who participate in the Security Council to say that you can just "buy" someone a commend.

And finally: my Discord conversation with Kostrorleauny (he can confirm this/provide record if required) basically come to the following conclusion: I will support his commendation proposal of Morrdh if the subject of the proposal (Morddh) will prove that he can be more active on NationStates. There needs to be the quality in-character writing to back up what the (final) proposal will say. Recognitions of excellence and service should be earned -- they should not be given/demanded/bought


Again, you cannot just "buy" or "demand" a commend or condemn. There are far too many people who are active in the SC for that to happen. Not even WALL itself is a guaranteed "this will pass" vote. You have to earn your commend or condemn, there is no other way.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM MOD!

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:20 am

You don't need to explain the mechanic of how WA proposal and drafting works -- I was the one who wrote Commend The Macabees and I campaigned manually for it (with you helping me with the campaign stage for it to reach quorum). But I wrote the entire material myself. I did all the research. I went through the whole thing learning how the WA works its magic. And from that experience, and seeing The Macabees passing UWO's condemnation (and looking back at [rightfully DOS'd player] being able to pass commend/condemn so easily for people he thought deserved condemnations/commendations [which happened to be deserving RP candidates, thankfully], and of course, seeing how he was able to be condemned twice so easily without anyone saying "this is wrong"), I could see how the wrong things can happen in the SC if you have the right connection and know how to do it

"Buy" may not be the right word for it. But then again, NationStates is a political simulation game. We can say that there's nothing wrong with buying c/c or influencing the whole process to the extent that you know what you're trying to submit will pass (because you have influential friends who can help you out). So in a way we can say that we are all playing a political simulation game, and this whole thing is but simply one part of why NationStates is wonderful/amazing/interesting (i.e. political simulation/influencing people to benefit you/your friends)

Nevertheless, thank you for (finally) posting. From reading your post, now I know that you will be a neutral person concerning this proposal. You are right, if a proposal to Commend Morrdh is to pass, then it should pass because there's enough evidence of his accomplishments (as written under the proposal). Right now, there's not enough material for a commendation ( going back to my prev. post: viewtopic.php?p=35179689#p35179689 )

Edit:

Lamoni wrote:Again, you cannot just "buy" or "demand" a commend or condemn. There are far too many people who are active in the SC for that to happen. Not even WALL itself is a guaranteed "this will pass" vote. You have to earn your commend or condemn, there is no other way.


Yes, you can ask for a commend/condemn. I know of one player from one distinguished RP region who asked to be condemned by Kostrorleauny. It was only after I told him on Discord that it would be a bad idea that Kostrorleauny decided to not go ahead with it in future (hopefully)

And the words of distinguished RPers can and WILL make the difference in a RP proposal passing. I've seen it by reading big regions' forums where they voted on RP proposals before. Please don't pretend this is not a political simulation game Lamoni. You know what I'm talking about
Last edited by Yohannes on Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Lamoni
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 6222
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:40 am

"Buy" may not be the right word for it. But then again, NationStates is a political simulation game. We can say that there's nothing wrong with buying c/c or influencing the whole process to the extent that you know what you're trying to submit will pass (because you have influential friends who can help you out). So in a way we can say that we are all playing a political simulation game, and this whole thing is but simply one part of why NationStates is wonderful/amazing/interesting (i.e. political simulation/influencing people to benefit you/your friends)


You can never "know" with certainty from the start that a commend/condemn will pass, even if you have "influential friends" helping you out. It all comes down to whether the Security Council thinks that the person getting the commend/condemn deserves it. That's it. That's all. There is nothing more to it than that.

Nevertheless, thank you for (finally) posting. From reading your post, now I know that you will be a neutral person concerning this proposal. You are right, if a proposal to Commend Morrdh is to pass, then it should pass because there's enough evidence of his accomplishments (as written under the proposal). Right now, there's not enough material for a commendation ( going back to my prev. post: viewtopic.php?p=35179689#p35179689 )


It is your opinion that there is not enough material for it to pass. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, or be unnecessarily rude, but the decision as to whether there is or is not enough material is ultimately up to the Security Council itself. I cannot speak for all the people of the SC, and neither can you. It is my personal opinion that the draft could use more material, but it is still just my opinion. It is not some immutable fact.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM MOD!

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:48 am

Lamoni wrote:You can never "know" with certainty from the start that a commend/condemn will pass, even if you have "influential friends" helping you out. It all comes down to whether the Security Council thinks that the person getting the commend/condemn deserves it. That's it. That's all. There is nothing more to it than that.


The evidence said otherwise. Commend Berg - passed. Condemn DOS'd player for RPing twice - passed. Condemn Hippostania - passed/only repealed after DOS'd player/a very very influential RP/GP mixed player back then decided to say: "Time to repeal it because Hippostania is a bad Condemn subject"

Lamoni wrote:YIt is your opinion that there is not enough material for it to pass. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, or be unnecessarily rude, but the decision as to whether there is or is not enough material is ultimately up to the Security Council itself. I cannot speak for all the people of the SC, and neither can you. It is my personal opinion that the draft could use more material, but it is still just my opinion. It is not some immutable fact.


You are right. It is to my opinion that there is not enough material to pass, and it is to your opinion that there might be enough to pass. We both can debate our position here, then. In that case, then, I want to ask the following question: is this a commend-worthy material?

Morrdh wrote:
Last Morridane Nuclear Unit Disbands


Morrdun - The Morridane Ministry of Defence was announced that the Morridane Armed Forces' last nuclear unit, the Royal Morridane Air Force's No.94 Maintenance Unit, has been disbanded.

The disbandment comes almost two years after the Commonwealth declared that it would move towards nuclear disarmament, effectively achieving Prime Minister Edmund Vermillion's pledge to remove atomic weapons from the Commonwealth's arsenal. As the Commonwealth's last remaining nuclear unit, No.94 Maintenance Unit's job was to oversee and carrying out the safe disposal of the Morridane Armed Force's nuclear warheads. No. 94 MU's task involved the collection of the Morridane Armed Force's nuclear warheads and transportation to a central site for disposal, a task praised by the Unit's commanding officer Wing Commander Charles White.

It is understand that an international team of inspectors from Stevid, Lamoni and Macabees are to be invited to verify the Commonwealth's complete and utter nuclear disarmament as well as making sure the disposal was done safely in accordance with international law.


Morrdh wrote:The Morridane Ministry of Defence was announced that the Morridane Armed Forces' last nuclear unit, the Royal Morridane Air Force's No.94 Maintenance Unit, has been disbanded.


Yohannes wrote:"was announced" should be "has announced". If you're going to provide a written evidence of why a subject nation should be commended, you should ideally not provide one with typos/poor RPing and one that is almost lacking in substance. Anyone can write something like that post. It is basically: "My navy do [xx] and [xx].


If we are to debate the commend-worthiness of the above material, then you are fighting a losing battle Lamoni, and you know it. That is DEFINITELY not a commend-worthy material.
Last edited by Yohannes on Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Lamoni
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 6222
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:57 am

The evidence said otherwise. Commend Berg - passed. Condemn DOS'd player for RPing twice - passed. Condemn Hippostania - passed/only repealed after DOS'd player/a very very influential RP/GP mixed player back then decided to say: "Time to repeal it because Hippostania is a bad Condemn subject"


First of all, you're mad that someone who got DOS'd *AFTER* getting two condemns got those condemns. You're forgetting that the DOS in question did actually do RPing well before they got DOS'd, and that RPing got them those condemnations. They were not bought, nor were they demanded. I could say the same for Hippostania, that they did the things that they were condemned for *BEFORE* they got DOS'd. Even then, the repeal of the condemn after they got DOS'd shows that the system works. If it did not, then the condemn for Hippostania would still be in force. The people who participate in the Security Council are not sheep, and I find it insulting that you would imply that they are.

If you find Commend Berg to be bad, then why haven't you drafted a repeal for it, or supported someone else in doing so? Complaining about it isn't going to get anything done, things like the Security Council require deeds.

You are fighting a losing battle Lamoni, and you know it. That is DEFINITELY not a commend-worthy material.


When did I say that it would pass as written? Show me where I said that, because I know that you cannot. The closest that I ever came to saying that is when I said that it was up to the Security Council itself to decide that, and our opinions matter not against the Security Council's vote. If you are going to debate me, please do not twist my words.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM MOD!

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:25 am

Lamoni wrote:First of all, you're mad that someone who got DOS'd *AFTER* getting two condemns got those condemns.


I'm not "mad", though. In fact, I'm smiling right now. Because:

Yohannes wrote:So in a way we can say that we are all playing a political simulation game, and this whole thing is but simply one part of why NationStates is wonderful/amazing/interesting (i.e. political simulation/influencing people to benefit you/your friends)


NationStates is a wonderful political simulation game. And I love it! But, we should be honest and say that it is a political simulation game -- where you can influence things or have friends who can influence things for you. It's politics. It's exciting, but we should be honest and say that it can be dirty sometimes. It's that simple.

Lamoni wrote:You're forgetting that the DOS in question did actually do RPing well before they got DOS'd, and that RPing got them those condemnations.


No, in fact, I'm not forgetting that the DOS'd player did RP extensively. But I mean, c'mon Lamoni: he made a lot of typos and spelling errors, just like I did back in 2011 and 2012. And tbh, both he and I, we were not that good of a storyteller back then. Lots of typos; lots of spelling errors. Just like many so-called "good players" from the "good ole days" who we thought were good are, looking back, bad writers. (Even the so-called "best" military RP thread back then, The Tiger and the Eagle by a DEAT'd player, Questers, contained many embarrassing typos and spelling errors - and the storytelling was just terrible!) One condemnation for that DOS'd player? Maybe. Two condemnations fair and square? Not really...

Lamoni wrote:They were not bought, nor were they demanded.


Two condemnations for some spelling errors and just above average writing - fair and square? Sorry. Not buying it

Lamoni wrote:I could say the same for Hippostania, that they did the things that they were condemned for *BEFORE* they got DOS'd. Even then, the repeal of the condemn after they got DOS'd shows that the system works.


I don't know Hippostania was DOS'd? (The more I know :p ). To my knowledge, DOS'd player campaigned for the repeal of Condemn Hippostania because he believed that Hippostania was a bad RPer, not because Hippostania was DOS'd -- in fact, I believe he talked about Hippostania's lacking RP quality in the Condemn Hippostania thread itself

Lamoni wrote: If it did not, then the condemn for Hippostania would still be in force. The people who participate in the Security Council are not sheep, and I find it insulting that you would imply that they are.


Oh, but no one is accusing anyone of being sheep. People are simply going to trust those that they believe are good/well-trusted/distinguished/accomplished figures from the other community if they don't know much about that community. And then they will vote according to the evidence (and if they can't gather enough evidence, then they will trust the words of the good/well-trusted/distinguished/accomplished figures from the community who vouched for the c/c)

It's politics Lamoni. You feigning ignorance of this and pretending to be offended, saying that I've called people "sheep" is disingenuous of you. You know as well as I do that both you and I can influence non-RPers perception of a RP c/c nominee by vouching for them (in fact, we did talk about this a lot on Discord when I was drafting Commend The Macabees back then; so I don't know why you're now pretending there's no politics involved in the SC) -- that is why: with powers come responsibilities.

Lamoni wrote:If you find Commend Berg to be bad, then why haven't you drafted a repeal for it, or supported someone else in doing so?


I only bring it up because you're debating with me about Commend Morrdh. Before this, I've never said anything about Commend Berg (because I don't need to -- I have more important things to worry about NationStates-wise; like actually writing in-character posts instead of busy doing Gameplay things as a RPer)

Lamoni wrote:Complaining about it isn't going to get anything done, things like the Security Council require deeds.


No one was complaining about Commend Berg. I've never mentioned Commend Berg -- until this thread. I don't know why you're trying to portray me as an evil complainer here. What agenda are you trying to advance, Lamoni? Trying to ruin my name publicly and make people think I'm just a useless complainer who don't do actual in-character RP (check my posting history, feel free!)?

In fact - check my signature and see the amount of in-character work there, and compare it with the signature of other RPers!

Population: 379 million; [Realism — Real Life Modern Technology]
[Government Act 2017] | [Reichstag Parliamentary Debates] | [Tales from Yohannes] | [I Beg my Realm] | [Currency Intervention] | [A Game of Thrones]
[Embassy Exchange] | [VMK Industry] | [Bank of Yohannes] | [GE&T Storefronts] | [NS Hacking] | [Bluepeace] | [Posting history]
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
Current NationStates project: [main battle tank retrofitting] | [AFV & tank armour system] | [Strategic stealth bomber]
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)

P.S. 2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)


Sorry, won't work this time ; )

Lamoni wrote:When did I say that it would pass as written? Show me where I said that, because I know that you cannot. The closest that I ever came to saying that is when I said that it was up to the Security Council itself to decide that, and our opinions matter not against the Security Council's vote. If you are going to debate me, please do not twist my words.


Lamoni wrote:I wouldn't say that the proposal for Morrdh is a bad idea in and of itself,


But to be fair (and to prove that, hey, I'm not afraid to say that in some cases I can also be wrong/I jump the gun too easily/unfairly!), you did say this:

Lamoni wrote:I just think that more digging for information should be done, to see whether there is enough material for Morrdh to be worthy of the honor of a commend.


By the way, that was direct quote (I don't see the need to alter quotes to prove my point)

Edit: So what we can conclude from this whole thing is this -- As it stands, there's not enough quality evidence for Commend Morrdh
Last edited by Yohannes on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Lamoni
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 6222
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:02 am

NationStates is a wonderful political simulation game. And I love it! But, we should be honest and say that it is a political simulation game -- where you can influence things or have friends who can influence things for you. It's politics. It's exciting, but we should be honest and say that it can be dirty sometimes. It's that simple.


No one in this thread has once said that NS is not a political simulation game. So why bring it up now? All that it does is distract.

No, in fact, I'm not forgetting that the DOS'd player did RP extensively. But I mean, c'mon Lamoni: he made a lot of typos and spelling errors, just like I did back in 2011 and 2012. And tbh, both he and I, we were not that good of a storyteller back then. Lots of typos; lots of spelling errors. Just like many so-called "good players" from the "good ole days" that we thought are good are, looking back, bad writers. One condemnation? Maybe. Two condemnations fair and square? Not really...


Yet, you still have not furnished any evidence that either of their condemnations were "bought" or "demanded." Where's the proof?

Two condemnations for some spelling errors and just above average writing - fair and square? Sorry. Not buying it


Got proof that they were not? I haven't seen any so far.

To my knowledge, DOS'd player campaigned for the repeal of Condemn Hippostania because he believed that Hippostania was a bad RPer, not because Hippostania was DOS'd -- in fact, I believe he talked about Hippostania's lacking RP quality in the Condemn Hippostania thread itself


Again, got proof that it was either "bought" or "demanded?" Remember, you have to convince a very significant number of people in the Security Council to vote in the way that you wish them to. And even WALL can't ensure victory for you.

Oh, but no one is accusing anyone of being sheep. People are simply going to trust those that they believe are good/well-trusted/distinguished/accomplished figures from the other community if they don't know much about that community. And then they will vote according to the evidence (and if they can't gather enough evidence, then they will trust the words of the good/well-trusted/distinguished/accomplished figures from the community who vouched for the c/c)

It's politics Lamoni. You feigning ignorance of this and pretending to be offended, saying that I've called people "sheep" is disingenuous of you. You know as well as I do that both you and I can influence non-RPers perception of a RP c/c nominee by vouching for them (in fact, we have talked about this a lot when I was drafting Commend The Macabees back then) -- that is why: with powers come responsibilities.


https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=2106686#p2106686

Back while Condemn Greater Tezdrian was being drafted, I remember, very early on, QuoD having a complaint about the mention of the nation violating the terms of a certain standing WAGA resolution within the condemnation's wording. Unibot prudently removed it from the resolution.

However, we're having quite a few ugly encounters with violation of GA resolutions being cited in WASC condemnations nowadays, and it's proving to be, for proposal authors, a lazy way out of actually finding someone worthy of condemnation and a way of avoiding doing some serious work and research to discover what they have done that is truly condemnable.


I could find more (and more recent) quotes in support if you want, but I feel that A mean old man's post there proves that people actually do their own research in the SC, and that my displeasure with you implying that people in the SC are sheep (and thus just follow the crowd) is indeed valid. I am not being disingenuous. If there is not enough evidence, the people of the Security Council will vote no. It is as simple as that.

I only bring it up because you're debating with me about Commend Morrdh. Before this, I've never said anything about Commend Berg (because I don't need to -- I have more important things to worry about NationStates-wise; like actually writing in-character posts instead of busy doing Gameplay things as a RPer)


I said, "If you find Commend Berg to be bad, then why haven't you drafted a repeal for it, or supported someone else in doing so? Complaining about it isn't going to get anything done, things like the Security Council require deeds." You could seriously take either option, if you truly cared to fix a situation that you claim to be bad, but you have just said that you will not. Why not? If you find the situation to be abhorrent, then why won't you take the time to fix it yourself, or help someone else who will? Is it because you don't actually find it to be as bad as you are claiming? Or is it just to try to score imaginary points? You could even have brought it to me, and I would see what action I thought appropriate for it. In fact, I still intend to do so, but it will not be because you asked me nicely. It is because I place my faith in the people of the Security Council.

Lamoni wrote:
I just think that more digging for information should be done, to see whether there is enough material for Morrdh to be worthy of the honor of a commend.


That's not me saying that it would pass as it is written at this moment, Yohannes. As I stated earlier, that is me saying that more digging for information needs to happen. You should also know that altering quotes is no bueno, and I have not done so.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM MOD!

User avatar
Yohannes
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12618
Founded: Mar 17, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Re: [DRAFT] Commend Morrdh

Postby Yohannes » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:31 am

Lamoni wrote:
NationStates is a wonderful political simulation game. And I love it! But, we should be honest and say that it is a political simulation game -- where you can influence things or have friends who can influence things for you. It's politics. It's exciting, but we should be honest and say that it can be dirty sometimes. It's that simple.

No one in this thread has once said that NS is not a political simulation game. So why bring it up now? All that it does is distract.


Okay, so you agree with my previous points, then?

Yohannes wrote:And the words of distinguished RPers can and WILL make the difference in a RP proposal passing. I've seen it by reading big regions' forums where they voted on RP proposals before.

Yohannes wrote:The evidence said otherwise. Commend Berg - passed. Condemn DOS'd player for RPing twice - passed. Condemn Hippostania - passed/only repealed after DOS'd player/a very very influential RP/GP mixed player back then decided to say: "Time to repeal it because Hippostania is a bad Condemn subject"


Lamoni wrote:Yet, you still have not furnished any evidence that either of their condemnations were "bought" or "demanded." Where's the proof?


What kind of proof, Lamoni? You want me to somehow provide quotes of that DOS'd player's old account's telegram inbox (somehow) or IRC conversations, with heaps of telegrams or IRC conversations saying: "Thanks for the votes."

You know as well as I do that that's not possible. So the "proof" we have is this: NationStates is a political simulation game. The DOS'd RPer in question was a very influential Gameplayer also.

In fact, he was so influential that - even with a posting history containing typos and spelling errors - he was able to, somehow, get two condemnations (which was unprecedented, especially for RP; and considering back then mainstream RP was pretty much ignored by mainstream GP). C'mon Lamoni, we're talking about the DOS'd player who somehow was able to coup'd The South Pacific briefly here (manipulating many RPers into believing his words that it was all just "for good fun"). Because of him, the whole Liberate Haven saga became a thing, and we're all victims of that today. This was also the player who got many friends in influential GP regions back then. When he was brought back from being DOS'd, he abused RPers' trust in him again (by involving Azhukali in a GP power struggle), and when he was finally DOS'd again, Vortiaganica (and all of us to an extent) have to pick up the pieces by supporting Azhukali in a new "Greater Azhukali". So as you can see - there's your proof.

When you're as influential as he was, you could do a lot of things. I know you're influential. You know it. In fact, you bragged about it to me (in a subtle way) on Discord in 2017. Politics also happened when I was trying to commend The Macabees - at the time, I was worrying terribly about whether The North Pacific (not in a bad way, more so in a "The North Pacific and WALL are so amazing I don't want to make them angry with me because I'm scared) would support my proposal or not. But, you did tell me that because I've got you as a co-author, and in your own words, you are influential in the gameplay circle/in Gameplay (with a wink, by the way, I still remember!), I need not worry about The North Pacific (and they will support Commend The Macabees)

So you know you're influential. You know that DOS'd player back then was even more influential than you are now. 1 + 1 = 2

That said, maybe "bought" or "demanded" - they're not the right words for it. Hmm.. how about "propped up" or "protected them from failing if they ever come to vote"?

See? NS Politics. You know it (thank you for showing me how SC politics works in 2017 during Commend The Macabees). And I know it. Please stop feigning ignorance of it. It's just embarrassing to see now.

I will not address the rest of your points as we're veering into dangerous territory here -- and it's time to get back to topic: [Draft] Commend Morrdh. So, would you agree with me that, as it stands, there's not enough (quality) evidence for Commend Morrdh, and that ideally the author should wait and see (and learn about) the dynamics of NS forum RPing community's wonderful RP regions (such as The Western Isles, Sunalaya and many other core NS forum RP regions) before going ahead with this proposal (and commend more players in Greater Dienstad)?

Edit: From what I'm understanding, you did agree with me. My apologies, once again (see, I'm not afraid to say that I make mistakes) I've jumped the gun too early. I should know better.
Last edited by Yohannes on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Realm of YohannesDas Yohannesische Reich
Government Archive Act | Reichstag Parliamentary Debates | Tales from Yohannes | I Beg my Realm
Currency Intervention | A Game of Thrones | The Archbishop and His Mission | Homofront Yohannes | My competition
Embassy Exchange | VMK Industry | Bank of Yohannes | NS Hacking | Our posting history | Player information
We love NationStates! Do you? \__(^.^)_//
NS military project: Tank | Armour | Bomber
All In-Character things I’ve written on NationStates are open-source/Creative Commons that you can use :)
2018 had been my most productive (IC) NS year since 2011 — I won’t be as active on NS now due to RL obligations :)

User avatar
Lamoni
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 6222
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:51 am

What kind of proof, Lamoni? You want me to somehow provide quotes of that DOS'd player's old account's telegram inbox (somehow) or IRC conversations, with heaps of telegrams or IRC conversations saying: "Thanks for the votes."

You know as well as I do that that's not possible. So the "proof" we have is this: NationStates is a political simulation game. The DOS'd RPer in question was a very influential Gameplayer also.


You know as well as I do that every commend/condemn has a thread associated with it. If what you are claiming is in any way true, there should be evidence of it somewhere in those threads.

When you're as influential as he was, you could do a lot of things. I know you're influential. You know it. Politics also happened when I was trying to commend The Macabees about whether The North Pacific (not in a bad way, more so in a "The North Pacific and WALL are so amazing I don't want to make them angry with me because I'm scared) would support my proposal or not. But, because I've got you as a co-author, and in your own words, you're influential (with a wink, by the way, I still remember!), I need not worry about The North Pacific (and they will support Commend The Macabees)


Yes, I know that I am influential. This shouldn't really be news, what with the minty green, and then red username, if for no other measure of such. However, I by myself cannot guarantee the passage of any SC commend/condemn. No one person can (not even the DOS in question), and it is ludicrous to think so. The passage of Commend Macabees had more to do with how well written and researched that it was, than any influence that I expended on helping to get it passed. You can have all the influence in the NS world, but you still have to have something real to back it up, in the end. Unless that is, you want to get laughed at.

The reason that I told you that you do not have to worry about TNP's support for Commend Macabees was because they were impressed with how well written that it was, and then voted within their region to support it. In this way, they followed their own regional rules about SC matters, which requires the delegate to vote according to the dictates of the region. Not all regions do it in that way, but I will not insult the intelligence of the gameplay regions. They are fully capable of doing their own research on any commend/condemn, and they do such research, too.

I should also point out that WALL is not a monolithic organization. While the WALL regions do control a lot of votes, each member region decides via their own regional practices how they will vote on a given SC or GA vote, and then discuss via WALL's communication channels. They are not obligated to vote in lockstep. It is also entirely possible to win a vote, even if they all vote against you. It would not be an easy proposition, but it can and has been done, more than once.

You claim that the DOS, "even with a posting history containing typos and spelling errors," still managed to get two condemnations. Let me ask you this, Yohannes. Have you ever made a typo or spelling error before? I have, you have, the DOS did, and so has everyone else that I can think of, both RP and GP. Does that mean that everyone who has ever gotten a commend or condemn should give them up if they've made typos and spelling errors, in your opinion? If so, not only would that would be quite a silly thing to think, but all commends and condemns would then have to be repealed for falling short of typing perfection. It is also quite silly to bring up typos and spelling errors as a reason for someone not to get a commend/condemn at all.

C'mon Lamoni, we're talking about the DOS'd player who somehow was able to coup'd The South Pacific briefly here (manipulating many RPers into believing his words that it was all just "for good fun"). Because of him, the whole Liberate Haven saga became a thing, and we're all victims of that today.


And because of both his coup, and Liberate Haven, said DOS also made plenty of enemies who would vote against said condemnations. These enemies would not only vote against these condemnations, but would also encourage others to vote against them as well. I've seen many campaigns and counter-campaigns in the WA, both in the GA, as well as in the SC. His behavior when brought back the second time is not proof that he bought or demanded his prior condemnations, and I am honestly confused as to why you think that said actions constitute proof that they did. While it is true that said DOS always wanted to be the center of attention, he himself would have an extremely hard time convincing gameplay regions to support his condemnations if there wasn't something of worth behind them. I was there when the DOS performed his coup, and I was there when Liberate Haven happened. This is not proof. Please provide actual proof.

That said, maybe "bought" or "demanded" - they're not the right words for it. Hmm.. how about "propped up" or "protected them from failing" if they ever come to vote?


The DOS in question had at least as many enemies as he did friends. It would not be nearly as easy for them to "prop up" two condemnations as you seem to think. I highly advise you to go and read the threads for their condemnations. I think you'll find lively debates about both of their condemnations. No one gets a commend/condemn for free, even if they are popular or influential. It if was that easy, we would not have had to send out WA campaign TGs for Commend Macabees. Remember how many of those that we sent out? Not just for the approvals phase, but also for the voting stage. I remember spending hours sending those things out to various regions, many of which i'd never even heard of before.

(which was unprecedented, especially for RP; and considering back then mainstream RP was pretty much ignored by mainstream GP)


Ignored only insofar as they didn't read our RPs unless someone was up for a commend/condemn. When I got my commend, gameplay looked through my posting history. There have also been multiple RP commend/condemnations that were written by gameplayers, and more that were helped by them, to include a certain well known defender.

Plenty of them also include extensive links to evidence of the claims made in them. Not least of which is your own.

And here are the two condemns of the DOS.

And I will veer the thread back onto topic, but you still have not provided proof. Please feel free to TG me.
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM MOD!

User avatar
Jakker
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1710
Founded: May 17, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:12 am

Seems like we are getting a bit off-topic here, so let's make sure to focus the conversation to the specific proposal at hand. While what is being discussed seems to have some relevance to the proposal, it is getting into threadjacking territory.
One Stop Rules Shop
Getting Help Request (GHR)

The Bruce wrote:Mostly I feel sorry for [raiders], because they put in all this effort and at the end of the day have nothing to show for it and have created nothing.

User avatar
Aclion
Minister
 
Posts: 3065
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Aclion » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:54 am

Mod fight mod fight mod fight!
Weiner - Cummings 2020
The left-right spectrum; an analogy.
XKI: Recruiter, TITO member
TEP: WA Executive Staff member
Forest: Cartographer
Oatland: Caesar, Cartographer


Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Security Council

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tumble Dryer

Advertisement

Remove ads