NationStates

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:29 pm**

United Massachusetts wrote:
La Navasse wrote:FCN has been doing these unforgivable actions for some time, and often. Being reprimanded "once" doesn't mean they haven't been doing such activity countless times before, it just means they weren't caught until then. You have no evidence to support your own impressions, nor do you have any backing for your beliefs and thought on "exposing this whole scene." I'm arguing on the basis of unforgivable action, and the action being continued is only a bonus to the many reasons of why my resolution should be passed.

The primary driver of change in FCN was the expulsion of the fascists. We've already agreed that they should have acted more quickly, but the fascists had taken such a grip that it became hard to do (particularly with many of the admins not being active participants in the spammy, more offensive channels. You have no evidence that this is being continued in FCN, and the burden of proof absolutely lies on you to advance your conspiracy theory that FCN is just playing nice to stay under the radar. The very post you cited in your OP praised the actions of New Wald and his bloc, including the now President Libervalley.

The legitimately dangerous offenders are gone. The impressionable ones have cleaned up their act. The region hasn't exhibited signs of offensive behaviour. The leading proponents of decency in the region now lead it.

Enough.

You haven't had enough when you haven't even addressed my point of unforgivable action. Attack the argument, not some other imaginary argument.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:30 pm**

Eh. Okay. I think I’ll write my initial response to this now. I’ll admit, you can write better than Crimsonfield did. Unfortunately, this proposal is just as flawed, if not more, than Crimsonfield’s, and based upon the same evidence and claims as he used.. Okay.

”Repulsed by the rampant proliferation of flagrant homophobic and racist commentary within the Federation’s internal discussion;”

I’m assuming you’re using the same evidence as Crimsonfield has? I stood by my word and halted usage of such language: I’ve already banned a person or two (permanently) for thinking they can use racist language and stay. Nevertheless, the clause implies present tense, and again, I need to remind you that we’ve taken the hint by the last proposal and fixed up things...Despite them already being fixed up to 2 months before that proposal.

”Disgusted by KAISERREICH involvement in the Federation’s deceitfully named military Army of Freedom, especially considering the prior fascist promoting actions that KAISERREICH has done;

Sickened by the Federation’s military assistance of KAISERREICH in an invasion on The Commie Confederacy;”

Deceitfully named Army of Freedom? Deceitfully named? Honestly, how dare you.

We haven’t had any aid from KAISERREICH in months, nor have we aided them in that time. I don’t remember when TCC occurred, but if I recall correctly, it was during Crimsonfield’s Secretary of War term. Either way, we do not view KAISERREICH as fascists, as we’ve never been presented with evidence that they are, and from all we’ve seen they are not. As such, I fail to see the wrong in aiding them in the future or the present.

”Disappointed at the Federation’s Founder for vehemently rejecting claims brought upon him in a previous Liberation proposal against his region in an attempt to smear and spin the truth;”

Alright. You can be disappointed in my defense of myself and my statements about my region all you want. That’s fine. I draw the line when you accuse me of “smear(ing) and spin(ning) the truth, however. I cannot see where I ever did such a thing, and I haven’t smeared the truth whatsoever. Speaking of which, what do you think is “the truth”? That’d probably help me argue better against this claim.

”Believing that the Federation never made a wholehearted effort to rid itself of its hateful & toxic behavior, instead only guarding itself from public scrutiny and creating public relations theatrics;”

Hateful and toxic behavior. Honestly, did you just get bored and weren’t able to write another clause so you threw in “hateful and toxic”? Nevertheless, under mine and New Waldensia’s terms as President, we’ve both taken a harsh stance on racist language etc. I’ve already apologized several times for my rather irrational behavior several months ago, and I cringe when I go back and think about myself several months ago...Ugh.

”Nauseated by the region's false self-portrayal as "Conservative" while they secretly support fascism and stigmatization of minorities;”

How so? Honestly, I am insulted and repulsed that you’ve continued Crimsonfield’s disgusting ways of calling us fascists and claiming we’re fake conservatives. Look at our nation’s, and go back through our region’s history! Hell, our armed forces is literally based upon the basic democratic rights of freedom and is thus called the Army of Freedom! We fight for freedom, which isn’t compatible with fascism! Again, Ugh.

”Intending to discourage other regions from pursuing the Federation’s path and properly punish the Federation for its actions;”

Noble intentions. I don’t see anything wrong with the “Federation’s path” though. In fact, despite our, uh, environment several months ago between a few members, I still smile and look back at our old days, and how far we’ve come from our founding.

EDIT: Could you please elaborate on “Gagium and Co.”?

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:32 pm**

United Massachusetts wrote:The very post you cited in your OP praised the actions of New Wald and his bloc, including the now President Libervalley.

New Waldensia is the President, Libervalley is the WA Delegate

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:33 pm**

Viridus wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:The very post you cited in your OP praised the actions of New Wald and his bloc, including the now President Libervalley.

New Waldensia is the President, Libervalley is the WA Delegate

Lo siento.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:48 pm**

I haven't read through this in detail, and hope to respond further in the next day or two, but here are a few thoughts.

The previous Liberation attempt fell flat on its face, while growing our region from ~100 to ~150, so.... thanks in advance for helping us on our way to 200!

As far as helping Kaiserreich, we have jointly participated in a mere handful of operations over the last year and a half - maybe two, three? and none of them recently. Laughable, not to mention the false tagging of the monarchial region as "fascist". Seriously, tagging everything as " fascist" diminishes the meaning and shame of the word for those instances when it is truly deserved.

We corrected the constitutional impediments to dealing with offensive speech (which was put in place to protect his own offensiveness by one of the assistants of the previous Liberation attempt, I might add). Since the failed Liberation, we have continued the effort (that began well before the attempt) to improve conduct and discussion both externally and internally and have put in protocols and legislation to punish bad language and actions.

Furthermore, upon my election as President during the period immediately after the miserably-failed Liberation, I intentionally picked members of my incoming Cabinet that were either a part of the core that had always stood against the blemishing conduct during its heyday, or individuals that were entirely new to regional politics.

This Liberation is not based in fact, especially considering the existing status of the Federation of Conservative Nations.

You can try to bring this to vote if you want. We welcome the new growth it will bring, as well as the inevitable failure of this unnecessary measure.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:11 pm**

Ambassadors, world leaders, and esteemed guests, I am not going to stand up here and do battle debates anymore. This is my one and only speech. If this makes quorum then I might make another one.

AGAINST!
For the past year I have tried to stuff the worms back into the can. But alas! It seems that neoliberations are here to stay and so are the Neoliberationists who sit amongst us. The ideology of Neoliberationism has slithered its way back into the honorable chamber of the Security Council. And this time, ladies and gentleman, the neoliberationists have slapped the F-word - Fascist - onto the Federation of Conservative Nations. So we're going to label a conservative region "fascist", huh? That's what a good neoliberationist does, of course. This is a fake liberation. This region is not in any danger. They are being targeted by the World Assembly. They are being weakened by the World Assembly. It's a long con. The Neoliberationists are hoping that the founder there, Gagium, will one day cease to exist so that the region will be easier to raid. This is weaponization of the Security Council, a world government that should stand for peace, ideally.

But we don't live in an ideal world, do we? That's what the Taskforce is for. We are here to help those who have been unfairly targeted by the world government in a political way. The Taskforce is an organization that stands against the ideology of Neoliberationism. I hope that the Taskforce can be strong enough to form an organized coalition of nations and regions across the world to push back against every offensive liberation that targets natives on their own sovereign homeland. That's my position and I think that's all I have to say.

For now.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:19 pm**

Point 1 & 6 are basically the same thing. You should probably just combine them.
- - Being of the FCN as well as the discord since September/October, I can honestly tell you that I haven't seen any homophobic/racist posts. I haven't even seen any edgy jokes that could be interpreted in such ways. Like, I lurk on the discord A LOT, and haven't seen any of what you're talking about. As such, I assume that this alleged behavior has been dealt with.

2 and 3 are also essentially the same thing.
- - If you want to heckle us for raiding, that's one thing, but judging a region for who they raid with is kind of silly. Regions should be judged for what they've done individually.

As for point 4 the resolution submitted seems to be saying that one shouldn't speak out for themselves, or their region. This is unacceptable as the main purpose of the security council is to participate in debates.

My refutation for point 5 is basically the same for point 1 and 6, though I do believe that 5 is a slightly different point from 1 and 6.

I'd also like to add that I'm still against the idea of one liberating instead of condemning regions that they don't like.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:25 pm**

Navasse, this is a terrible idea that won’t work, and you know very well why.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:32 pm**

Anyone who has the level of God-complex to think that they can deem the actions of an entire community unforgivable is someone I don't trust with anything related to inter-regional decision making, but that's just my opinion.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:32 pm**

That's much more backlash than I expected from this proposal.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:34 pm**

Doge Republics wrote:That's much more backlash than I expected from this proposal.

The issue has been settled, unless La Navasse can find proof that FCN hasn't changed its ways. Of course, they have no proof of offensive content.

Posted: **Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:40 pm**

La Navasse wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:You have no evidence to back up that claim. NPO has been reprimanded countless times before, and they didn't clean up their act. FCN was reprimanded once, and appears to have been making many changes in the right direction. Not comparable.

I'm weighing whether it's worth my time to bother debating you and exposing this whole scene, and I'm not sure. But I'm sure as hell not going to let New Wald get his name dragged through the mud again, this time by a badge-hunter.

FCN has been doing these unforgivable actions for some time, and often. Being reprimanded "once" doesn't mean they haven't been doing such activity countless times before, it just means they weren't caught until then. You have no evidence to support your own impressions, nor do you have any backing for your beliefs and thought on "exposing this whole scene." I'm arguing on the basis of unforgivable action, and the action being continued is only a bonus to the many reasons of why my resolution should be passed.

Unforgivable action such as....? Banning real fascists? Raiding real fascists? Hmmm. Btw if his goes uo for vote thanks for the free publicity part 2.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:02 am**

Not this again. This is nothing more than a concerted witch hunt against a region that has long since redeemed itself. The past is the past. Move. On. If this campaign of defamation and exclusion continues, I will gladly back a condemnation of La Navasse or any other nation/region that attempts to liberate or condemn FCN, and I will back the liberation of any region that attempts to invade and destroy FCN, if any such SC proposals are put to the floor for a vote.

What's really ironic is that I myself am a neoliberationist who supports the liberation of CCD and USSD on purely ideological grounds, including some of the author's proposals.

AGAINST. Again.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:45 am**

Although I absolutely loathe the FCN and its attempts to disguise their fascism witha veil of 'Conservativism', I don't support Offensive Liberations against foundered regions. Also, I think Navasse has enough badges already. Against.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:07 am**

Honeydewistania wrote:Although I absolutely loathe the FCN and its attempts to disguise their fascism witha veil of 'Conservativism'

Other than this author's absurd proclamation of the FCN as fascist, what evidence do you have to justify your "loathing" of us as "disguised fascists"?

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:13 am**

If this passes, it will show that the WA consensus on what is a Nazi region is inaccurate.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:57 pm**

Honeydewistania wrote:Although I absolutely loathe the FCN and its attempts to disguise their fascism witha veil of 'Conservativism', I don't support Offensive Liberations against foundered regions. Also, I think Navasse has enough badges already. Against.

We could tell when you raided our discord servers and spam tagged our members while screaming ‘fascists’ at them. Thank you.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:19 pm**

New Bremerton wrote:Not this again. This is nothing more than a concerted witch hunt against a region that has long since redeemed itself. The past is the past. Move. On. If this campaign of defamation and exclusion continues, I will gladly back a condemnation of La Navasse or any other nation/region that attempts to liberate or condemn FCN, and I will back the liberation of any region that attempts to invade and destroy FCN, if any such SC proposals are put to the floor for a vote.

While I'm also against the proposal, I'm surprised you think this would be worthwhile.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:If this passes, it will show that the WA consensus on what is a Nazi region is inaccurate.

It's already inaccurate, if you ask me.

Quebecshire wrote:Anyone who has the level of God-complex to think that they can deem the actions of an entire community unforgivable is someone I don't trust with anything related to inter-regional decision making, but that's just my opinion.

I would argue you could. Even if a few people are the problem, if the rest stand by and tolerate it, then you could argue that the actions of a few are the responsibility of the whole group. That's definitely something you could deem unforgivable.

New Waldensia wrote:not to mention the false tagging of the monarchial region as "fascist". Seriously, tagging everything as " fascist" diminishes the meaning and shame of the word for those instances when it is truly deserved.

Kaiserreich isn't fascist, sure, but working with them is definitely still a problem.

Anyway, still see this as pointless, and passing this hurts the anti-fascism effort if anything, so not sure why it's being considered.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:26 pm**

Oh great, first they target the KR with the label fascist, now they're targeting regular conservative regions by insisting that they're all secret fascists. Where does this slippery slope end exactly?

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:28 pm**

Central Asian Republics wrote:Oh great, first they target the KR with the label fascist, now they're targeting regular conservative regions by insisting that they're all secret fascists. Where does this slippery slope end exactly?

Eh. While KR isn't fascist, it's certainly a questionable region, so not completely terrible.

I' agree though, at this rate, every conservative region will be fascist.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:31 pm**

Central Asian Republics wrote:Oh great, first they target the KR with the label fascist, now they're targeting regular conservative regions by insisting that they're all secret fascists. Where does this slippery slope end exactly?

Seems it'll end when the "fascist" game tag is gone from every region that has it, if you want to see it from that perspective.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:33 pm**

Jar Wattinree wrote:
Central Asian Republics wrote:Oh great, first they target the KR with the label fascist, now they're targeting regular conservative regions by insisting that they're all secret fascists. Where does this slippery slope end exactly?

Seems it'll end when the "fascist" game tag is gone from every region that has it, if you want to see it from that perspective.

It's already gone beyond that stage when the first of these offensive liberations were proposed, the first region targeted was not an explicitly fascist-tagged region.

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:22 pm**

Aww it's deleted? We wanted some more free publicity

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:34 pm**

Did we really have to blank the OP?

Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:36 pm**

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Did we really have to blank the OP?

No we didn't and that should not be what authors do. If you want to abandon a proposal, put [abandon] in the title.

Edit: I'm only going to lock this thread at this point to avoid this turning into additional spam.