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[DRAFT] Condemn United Massachusetts

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Aclion
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Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Aclion » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:36 am

Caracasus wrote:Actually thought this was a joke UM was in on before I read in detail. Clearly against and even more so given extra context.

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Feux
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Postby Feux » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:49 am

I'll vote aye if he wants this badge lol
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:50 am

Aclion wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Actually thought this was a joke UM was in on before I read in detail. Clearly against and even more so given extra context.

I'm proud of you.


UM only deserves a condemnation if it is a jokey one that they are well in on, like Chan Island's. I have got a lot of time for UM, even though I doubt we'd agree on a hell of a lot of stuff politically speaking. Apart from anything else, UM actually admitted during that recent weird liberation attempt that the region in question had a problem and seemed very genuine in their attempts to deal with it, rather than try to brush it under the rug.
Last edited by Caracasus on Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grater Tovakia
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Grater Tovakia » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:18 am

Looked at the title and I knew this was stupid, I do not agree with UM on everything but that is not condemn-worthy.


AGAINST
Last edited by Grater Tovakia on Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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United Massachusetts
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Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 pm

Feux wrote:I'll vote aye if he wants this badge lol

I appreciate that, but I haven't done nearly enough to warrant recognition.

Caracasus wrote:
Aclion wrote:I'm proud of you.


UM only deserves a condemnation if it is a jokey one that they are well in on, like Chan Island's. I have got a lot of time for UM, even though I doubt we'd agree on a hell of a lot of stuff politically speaking. Apart from anything else, UM actually admitted during that recent weird liberation attempt that the region in question had a problem and seemed very genuine in their attempts to deal with it, rather than try to brush it under the rug.

Aw. Thanks.
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Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

WA Affairs Minister, The East Pacific
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

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Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
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The Tri State Area and Maine
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Tri State Area and Maine » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:17 pm

The only thing I see in this proposal is that he has opinions on controversial topics and that he opposes Socialism.

Obviously against regardless, though.

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Kavagrad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:27 pm

While I have my own problems with UM, there’s nothing to condemn in this. Opposed.
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Caracasus
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:27 pm

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:The only thing I see in this proposal is that he has opinions on controversial topics and that he opposes Socialism.

Obviously against regardless, though.


No reason to doubt UM here really, and they seem to think this is retaliation for kicking out some deeply unpleasent folks from a discord channel, making this even less worthy of support.
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United Massachusetts
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Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:32 pm

Caracasus wrote:
The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:The only thing I see in this proposal is that he has opinions on controversial topics and that he opposes Socialism.

Obviously against regardless, though.


No reason to doubt UM here really, and they seem to think this is retaliation for kicking out some deeply unpleasent folks from a discord channel, making this even less worthy of support.

I can send you the DMs if you so desire.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

WA Affairs Minister, The East Pacific
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

Fmr. President, Right to Life
Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
"Stat crux dum volvitur orbis"
"The Cross is steady while the world is turning"


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Malphe
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Malphe » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:24 pm

I'm getting jealous, where's my condemn? Isn't like y'all are exercising any standards for these as it is.
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Sijiao
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Founded: Aug 09, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Sijiao » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:42 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.

In our judgement, at least. It was a conclusion reached based on the posts, their context, and other considerations. I don't take allegations like these lightly, but I think it's more likely than not that he holds some concerning anti-Semitic tendencies.

I will note that his friend who also left our server was a radical traditionalist "catholic" (read: heretic) who pulled out all the tricks, even the old "Jews killed Jesus" canard. Said person, who literally advocated the forcible conversion of Jews, also denied that they were anti-Semitic. So, I'm really not inclined to believe anything coming out of their camp.


United Massachusetts wrote:
Hispanyo wrote:He's Not Anti Semitic, You're just slandering him because he's different, And Check your facts before saying things like that. You people tend to believe fascism = Nazism. Well it's not! It actually is fascism =/= nazism.

I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.


Where is this really? Are you simply fabricating this just to find a way to demonize anyone with a different viewpoint? I would like to see this "evidence", that these nations are what you claim to be.
Last edited by Sijiao on Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kavagrad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:49 pm

Sijiao wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:In our judgement, at least. It was a conclusion reached based on the posts, their context, and other considerations. I don't take allegations like these lightly, but I think it's more likely than not that he holds some concerning anti-Semitic tendencies.

I will note that his friend who also left our server was a radical traditionalist "catholic" (read: heretic) who pulled out all the tricks, even the old "Jews killed Jesus" canard. Said person, who literally advocated the forcible conversion of Jews, also denied that they were anti-Semitic. So, I'm really not inclined to believe anything coming out of their camp.


United Massachusetts wrote:I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.


Where is this really? Are you simply fabricating this just to find a way to demonize anyone with a different viewpoint? I would like to see this "evidence", that these nations are what you claim to be.

UM has already offered to send the proof to people in this thread. If you're interested in getting it, may I suggest that you TG him instead of making public and unfounded suggestions about his intentions before seeing the evidence at hand?
Last edited by Kavagrad on Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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United Massachusetts
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:56 pm

I've sent the OP my proof.

I will say that I don't take these allegations lightly, as some people once accused me of bring a Nazi collaborator b/c RtL has an embassy w/ KR, or whatever.
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

WA Affairs Minister, The East Pacific
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

Fmr. President, Right to Life
Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
"Stat crux dum volvitur orbis"
"The Cross is steady while the world is turning"


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Quebecshire
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Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Utter Garbage

Postby Quebecshire » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:42 pm

RECOGNIZING that United Massachusetts (hereby referred to as UM) is a prominent member-nation of The East Pacific, with a presence in Right To Life by way of the puppet Massachusetts United,

Cool? I've worked with RTL in the past and while I disagree with some of their beliefs and previous methods, that's not exactly something concerning nor how you'd expect a condemnation to start. I've had seldom interactions with TEP other than briefly speaking to Yuno a few times but the same goes for them.
UNDERSTANDING that UM is seen by many as a promulgator of Catholic social teaching and the pro-life cause throughout numerous regions,

Aside from the fact that you're supposed to not mention IRL stuff in World Assembly matters, I don't see how that has anything to do with international peacekeeping and the rule of diplomacy and law - you know, the thing the WA is meant to do.
RECALLING that UM seeks to implement the abolition of the death penalty among all World Assembly-affiliated nations, consequently advocating for the usage of resources and tax revenues to sustain the continued existence of the worst and most vile offenders,

I moderately disagreed with him on the issue and so did my region's Parliamentary body, but that's no reason to condemn him. If it matters that much to you, leave the WA.
NOTING that UM opposes effective authoritarian government models and reflects this bias both in its campaigning activities for World Assembly resolutions and in its activities as a member of the inter-regional community, working against the interests of communist and fascist regions alike,

Sounds like you're grasping at straws to condemn a perfectly reasonable nation just because he doesn't play friendly with extremists.
DISTRESSED that UM, in spite of professing dedication to social welfare, fails to comprehend the enormous potentialities of a state-controlled economy,

Doesn't fascism usually include a state-controlled economy? Either way, not worth a condemn.
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Quebecshire
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Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Quebecshire » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:47 pm

Also, Hispanyo, I don't think you're some arbiter of impartiality and fairness towards individuals, given your past, the part I am specifically mentioning is that with the now defunct United Conservative Nations. Assuming that Greater New Hispanyoan Empire is you, which the regional connections very much point to it being you, and now you're here to attempt to condemn a WA civil servant for not sympathizing to your rather unsavoury views and actions.

"I believe the LCN is No better than the Chaotic Left."
(said on the account Greater New Hispanyoan Empire, the region it was posted on doesn't exist in that form but I have a screen snip)

Given the above quote from June-ish, I don't think you're one to complain about slander... especially when it comes to bad WA proposals...
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The League of Conservative Nations

"Quebecshire has proven time and time again that he is perfectly capable of standing in front of a room, full of people who hate him and continuing to defend his views"

Formerly:
Chairman of the National Committee of Reconstruction of the League of Conservative Nations, President of the League of Conservative Nations, Vice-President of the League of Conservative Nations, Secretary of Defense of the League of Conservative Nations, Secretary of Public Relations of the League of Conservative Nations, Director of Homeland Security of the League of Conservative Nations, Chancellor of FORGE, FORGE Secretary of Public Relations.

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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:59 am

I have seen enough of the evidence to confirm UM's account. To my mind this is a hack-job done out of revenge because UM booted someone who was being very antisemetic.

The region this proposal comes from on the other hand probably shouldn't be drawing too much attention to itself given the Sec Council's views on fascism.
Last edited by Caracasus on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cedoria
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:33 am

Don't agree with UM on much, but there is no condemnable material here, and if what I've heard is true, it's revenge because UM kicked out some fairly unpleasant people on Discord, which as far as I'm concerned is commend material if anything.

Sorry, not voting for this.
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Consular
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:31 pm

United Massachusetts wrote:
Hispanyo wrote:He's Not Anti Semitic, You're just slandering him because he's different, And Check your facts before saying things like that. You people tend to believe fascism = Nazism. Well it's not! It actually is fascism =/= nazism.

I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.

Denying the legitimacy of Israel is not anti-semitic. The rest though, yeah

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United Massachusetts
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Founded: Jan 17, 2016
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby United Massachusetts » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:43 pm

Consular wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.

Denying the legitimacy of Israel is not anti-semitic. The rest though, yeah

Calling for the destruction of the Israeli state and denying its legitimacy is absolutely anti-Semitism. Per the ADL:

Anti-Defamation League wrote:Words or actions related to Israel are anti-Semitic when they blame all Jews for the actions of the state, single out Israel in denying the country’s right to exist as a Jewish state and an equal member of the global community, use anti-Jewish stereotypes or conspiracy theories (such as accusations of Jewish world domination), or traditional anti-Semitic imagery or comparisons to Nazis.


Per the Working Definition of Anti-Semitism:

International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance wrote:Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor...

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation...

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.


[1] https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and ... ti-zionist
[2] https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/wo ... tisemitism

So, per the definitions of anti-Semitism by the EU, the largest anti-hate organization in the US (and also the US government, per the DoE's new definition), calling for the destruction of the Israeli state or denying its legitimacy is absolutely anti-Semitic.
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
United Massachusetts
World Assembly Mission

Pro-Life Social Democratic Catholic
Ambassador: Bishop Alexander Pierce

WA Affairs Minister, The East Pacific
Assistant: Father Carl Sullivan

Fmr. President, Right to Life
Queen Yuno wrote:You have a very contradictory rep yourself, [UM].
Sanctaria wrote:We get it. You're pro-life.
Davelands wrote:(UM tries to slip another one by)
Wallenburg wrote:You've got to be the most ignorant person on this Discord.
Davelands wrote:Remember that United Mass is extremely on the religious right side. Look for hidden gotcha's for later. He is playing a long game with proposals...
"Stat crux dum volvitur orbis"
"The Cross is steady while the world is turning"


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Kiravian WA Mission
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Posts: 49
Founded: Mar 31, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Kiravian WA Mission » Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:53 pm

"The Mission stands immovably opposed to this resolution, obviously. Although we find their accent, sporting affiliations, and fondness for fluffernutters objectionable, in all other respects we would prefer that all members of the World Assembly be a little more like our esteemed colleagues from United Massachusetts."

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Aclion
Minister
 
Posts: 3046
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Aclion » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:21 pm

Consular wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.

Denying the legitimacy of Israel is not anti-semitic. The rest though, yeah

It depends on the context. In this context it is absolutely antisemitic.
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:14 am

Consular wrote:
United Massachusetts wrote:I have log evidence of said individual denying the legitimacy of the Israeli state, alleging a world conspiracy between Jews, Americans, and communists, and using "Jewish" in a phrase, where, given the context, it could only be construed as a slur.

He's anti-Semitic, even if he doesn't openly acknowledge as much.

Denying the legitimacy of Israel is not anti-semitic. The rest though, yeah


Oh yeah. There is no way that calling for the actual destruction of Israel (as im presumably raising it to the ground) falls under legitimate criticism of Israel.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Consular
Minister
 
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:49 am

I'm just wary because there are plenty of things about Israel that absolutely should be criticised -- and some disreputable Israeli politicians use anti-semitism as a shield. It is very possible to criticise the state, including its right to exist as a state, without any ill will towards Jewish people. But this is getting too NSG so let's stop.

Edit: Happy to discuss via telegram instead.
Last edited by Consular on Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pilipinas and Malaya
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Founded: Jun 23, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Pilipinas and Malaya » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:57 am

A very definite no.
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:00 am

Consular wrote:I'm just wary because there are plenty of things about Israel that absolutely should be criticised -- and some disreputable Israeli politicians use anti-semitism as a shield. It is very possible to criticise the state, including its right to exist as a state, without any ill will towards Jewish people. But this is getting too NSG so let's stop.


Indeed. Whoever is trying to muddy the waters when it comes to seperating criticism of Israel and antisemitism needs pulling up on. But yes, that would be for NSG.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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