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(Discussion) Nazi and Communist discrimination.

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Caracasus
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Posts: 6602
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:35 am

All Wild Things wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Thus far, neoliberations seem to be reserved just for going after regions that the WA membership generally considers to be promoting OOC dangerous/toxic/whatever ideologies and behaviors.

Which is why I was surprised that people were mostly against the Lib. Federation Of Conservative Nations. Any thoughts why that didn't initially get similar levels of support?


That one was really weird. No drafting thread, no campaign and thus no discussion of the evidence until it had gone to vote coupled with claims that the worst offenders had actually left and the illegality of the proposal I think that the waters were muddied enough for it to be rather hard to pursue it.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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All Wild Things
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Founded: Apr 24, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby All Wild Things » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:49 am

Caracasus wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:Which is why I was surprised that people were mostly against the Lib. Federation Of Conservative Nations. Any thoughts why that didn't initially get similar levels of support?


That one was really weird. No drafting thread, no campaign and thus no discussion of the evidence until it had gone to vote coupled with claims that the worst offenders had actually left and the illegality of the proposal I think that the waters were muddied enough for it to be rather hard to pursue it.

Ah. Makes sense. Thanks!

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Malphe
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Founded: Jun 02, 2016
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Postby Malphe » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:50 am

Indo-Malaysia wrote:Every 60 seconds, a Nazi is discriminated against. With your help, with a donation from £1 a month, we can help end this.

Won't anyone think of the unabashed genocide advocates?

But yeah, the fascist's hateful ideology doesn't deserve protection by the NS community. I do believe that they do deserve to play the game but beyond that I'm not willing to give them an inch.
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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:53 am

All Wild Things wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:Thus far, neoliberations seem to be reserved just for going after regions that the WA membership generally considers to be promoting OOC dangerous/toxic/whatever ideologies and behaviors.

Which is why I was surprised that people were mostly against the Lib. Federation Of Conservative Nations. Any thoughts why that didn't initially get similar levels of support?

It was really a case of a bill sunk by its own author. WA multi-ing with their own relationship to people guilty of the same thing that the accused in FCN were guilty of. I stand by the proposal, and would vote for it again if proposed by someone with a bit more credibility, but I doubt that'll happen now.
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:00 am

Kavagrad wrote:
All Wild Things wrote:Which is why I was surprised that people were mostly against the Lib. Federation Of Conservative Nations. Any thoughts why that didn't initially get similar levels of support?

It was really a case of a bill sunk by its own author. WA multi-ing with their own relationship to people guilty of the same thing that the accused in FCN were guilty of. I stand by the proposal, and would vote for it again if proposed by someone with a bit more credibility, but I doubt that'll happen now.


Give it a few months to a year I reckon then take a look. If (and I kinda doubt this will have happenned) they have cleaned up their act, great. If they're still posting photos of Klan lynchings and joking about gassing the jews then I would hope there would be support for a renewed liberation attempt.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Tim-Opolis
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Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:49 am

Caracasus wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:It was really a case of a bill sunk by its own author. WA multi-ing with their own relationship to people guilty of the same thing that the accused in FCN were guilty of. I stand by the proposal, and would vote for it again if proposed by someone with a bit more credibility, but I doubt that'll happen now.


Give it a few months to a year I reckon then take a look. If (and I kinda doubt this will have happenned) they have cleaned up their act, great. If they're still posting photos of Klan lynchings and joking about gassing the jews then I would hope there would be support for a renewed liberation attempt.


Ideally, like most fascist regions, they'll have lost their founder by then anyway and can get visited by some less than friendly neighborhood R/Ders.
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The Confederation of Arab States
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Founded: Oct 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby The Confederation of Arab States » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:47 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Give it a few months to a year I reckon then take a look. If (and I kinda doubt this will have happenned) they have cleaned up their act, great. If they're still posting photos of Klan lynchings and joking about gassing the jews then I would hope there would be support for a renewed liberation attempt.


Ideally, like most fascist regions, they'll have lost their founder by then anyway and can get visited by some less than friendly neighborhood R/Ders.


Unless their smart enough to not have an executive WA delegate.

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Jar Wattinree
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Founded: Dec 14, 2016
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:57 pm

The Confederation of Arab States wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:
Ideally, like most fascist regions, they'll have lost their founder by then anyway and can get visited by some less than friendly neighborhood R/Ders.


Unless their smart enough to not have an executive WA delegate.

Tim means that their Founder has CTE'd by then, meaning the WAD is Executive regardless.
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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:16 am

I'm quite new here, but I haven't seen any real discrimination against left-wing regions. Against Nazis and far-right, sure, but they just don't seem to be the popular kids right now, "lefties" and "liberals" gang up on them. This discrimination is not easily ended, because NationStates is played according to everyone's own personal conscience, which cannot be moderated. I do hope to see the day when the "Nazi" buzzword has lost its meaning across the entire collective, but it will take some more time.

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Cosmopolitan borovan
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Founded: Jan 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cosmopolitan borovan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:18 am

Andoros wrote:I'm quite new here, but I haven't seen any real discrimination against left-wing regions. Against Nazis and far-right, sure, but they just don't seem to be the popular kids right now, "lefties" and "liberals" gang up on them. This discrimination is not easily ended, because NationStates is played according to everyone's own personal conscience, which cannot be moderated. I do hope to see the day when the "Nazi" buzzword has lost its meaning across the entire collective, but it will take some more time.

It won't. Anything resembling nazi in a region is questionable

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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:36 am

Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:
Andoros wrote:I'm quite new here, but I haven't seen any real discrimination against left-wing regions. Against Nazis and far-right, sure, but they just don't seem to be the popular kids right now, "lefties" and "liberals" gang up on them. This discrimination is not easily ended, because NationStates is played according to everyone's own personal conscience, which cannot be moderated. I do hope to see the day when the "Nazi" buzzword has lost its meaning across the entire collective, but it will take some more time.

It won't. Anything resembling nazi in a region is questionable


Why does being a Nazi make a region a questionable region? As long as they follow forum rules and engage in constructive dialog, they should receive the benefit of being heard out. I don't know, maybe I'm too new and idealistic. Stereotypes are not easily broken.

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Cosmopolitan borovan
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Founded: Jan 18, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Cosmopolitan borovan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:43 am

People have embedded thoughts they believe and it leaves an impression

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Indo-Malaysia
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Founded: Nov 07, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Indo-Malaysia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:53 am

Andoros wrote:
Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:It won't. Anything resembling nazi in a region is questionable


Why does being a Nazi make a region a questionable region? As long as they follow forum rules and engage in constructive dialog, they should receive the benefit of being heard out. I don't know, maybe I'm too new and idealistic. Stereotypes are not easily broken.

Most keep the questionable stuff offsite to avoid mod rulings (though that can be exempted in VERY extreme cases).
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Miss Bad Life Choices
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Founded: Feb 12, 2018
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Postby Miss Bad Life Choices » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:02 am

Andoros wrote:Why does being a Nazi make a region a questionable region? As long as they follow forum rules and engage in constructive dialog, they should receive the benefit of being heard out.


A nazi region should be very questionable because it's Nazi. As for the benefit of being heard out, lol but no. I'm not willing to hear out a hateful thought process.
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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:10 am

Miss Bad Life Choices wrote:
Andoros wrote:Why does being a Nazi make a region a questionable region? As long as they follow forum rules and engage in constructive dialog, they should receive the benefit of being heard out.


A nazi region should be very questionable because it's Nazi. As for the benefit of being heard out, lol but no. I'm not willing to hear out a hateful thought process.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:17 am

Andoros wrote:
Miss Bad Life Choices wrote:
A nazi region should be very questionable because it's Nazi. As for the benefit of being heard out, lol but no. I'm not willing to hear out a hateful thought process.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

How?
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:21 am

Andoros wrote:
Miss Bad Life Choices wrote:
A nazi region should be very questionable because it's Nazi. As for the benefit of being heard out, lol but no. I'm not willing to hear out a hateful thought process.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.


Nazis believe and promote an ideology that strips a whole bunch of humanity of the right to be considered human beings. As an ideology it doesn't deserve a seat at the grownups table because to debate it means that you are already conceding that there is a chance they are correct.

By all means try to convince fascists and nazis that they are wrong, but you're on rather shaky ground morally speaking if you're claiming they deserve the same treatment as any other ism.
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:22 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Andoros wrote:You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

How?

If a nation has not broken the forum rules and engages in constuctive, productive discussion, it deserves a chance to be heard out. Refusing to do so solely on the basis of their ideology is intolerant, hateful and even downright petty. Regions are an extension of nations, therefore the same can be applied to them.

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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:29 am

Andoros wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:How?

If a nation has not broken the forum rules and engages in constuctive, productive discussion, it deserves a chance to be heard out. Refusing to do so solely on the basis of their ideology is intolerant, hateful and even downright petty. Regions are an extension of nations, therefore the same can be applied to them.

Yes, because giving literal Nazis an equal voice is historically a totally consequence-free idea, right?

For fuck's sake. Nazis deserve far worse than having to deal with a few people shouting them down on a forum that is already too kind by giving them the right to speak at all.
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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:30 am

Caracasus wrote:
Andoros wrote:You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.


Nazis believe and promote an ideology that strips a whole bunch of humanity of the right to be considered human beings. As an ideology it doesn't deserve a seat at the grownups table because to debate it means that you are already conceding that there is a chance they are correct.

By all means try to convince fascists and nazis that they are wrong, but you're on rather shaky ground morally speaking if you're claiming they deserve the same treatment as any other ism.


I disagree with you. By refusing all contact with an ideology you (subjectively) deem infantile and unfit to exist, you do not invalidate it. You only make yourself look avoidant and that would imply you are incapable of proving said ideology wrong.

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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:36 am

Andoros wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:How?

If a nation has not broken the forum rules and engages in constuctive, productive discussion, it deserves a chance to be heard out. Refusing to do so solely on the basis of their ideology is intolerant, hateful and even downright petty. Regions are an extension of nations, therefore the same can be applied to them.

I like how you didn't answer my question of why you think that Miss Bad Life Choices has a hateful thought process:

Andoros wrote:You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

But fine, dodge all you want. :roll:
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:40 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Andoros wrote:If a nation has not broken the forum rules and engages in constuctive, productive discussion, it deserves a chance to be heard out. Refusing to do so solely on the basis of their ideology is intolerant, hateful and even downright petty. Regions are an extension of nations, therefore the same can be applied to them.

I like how you didn't answer my question of why you think that Miss Bad Life Choices has a hateful thought process:

Andoros wrote:You are entitled to your opinion. But you too follow a hateful thought process and I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

But fine, dodge all you want. :roll:

"Refusing to do so solely on the basis of their ideology is intolerant, hateful and even downright petty." (The second sentence of my post) The said nation (Miss Bad Life Choices) refuses to hear out Nazi regions on the basis of their ideology. Therefore, the said nation is intolerant, hateful and somewhat petty. Therefore, the said nation follows an intolerant thought process.

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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:42 am

Andoros wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Nazis believe and promote an ideology that strips a whole bunch of humanity of the right to be considered human beings. As an ideology it doesn't deserve a seat at the grownups table because to debate it means that you are already conceding that there is a chance they are correct.

By all means try to convince fascists and nazis that they are wrong, but you're on rather shaky ground morally speaking if you're claiming they deserve the same treatment as any other ism.


I disagree with you. By refusing all contact with an ideology you (subjectively) deem infantile and unfit to exist, you do not invalidate it. You only make yourself look avoidant and that would imply you are incapable of proving said ideology wrong.

Hey, doesn't your region lend its forces to a region who's sole goal is to attack communist regions?

Oh, why yes, yes they do.
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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:43 am

Andoros wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Nazis believe and promote an ideology that strips a whole bunch of humanity of the right to be considered human beings. As an ideology it doesn't deserve a seat at the grownups table because to debate it means that you are already conceding that there is a chance they are correct.

By all means try to convince fascists and nazis that they are wrong, but you're on rather shaky ground morally speaking if you're claiming they deserve the same treatment as any other ism.


I disagree with you. By refusing all contact with an ideology you (subjectively) deem infantile and unfit to exist, you do not invalidate it. You only make yourself look avoidant and that would imply you are incapable of proving said ideology wrong.


Okay, let's turn this round. Why should anyone debate, and in doing so lend credance to an ideology that declares a whole swathe of the human race not to have human rights?
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Caracasus
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Posts: 6602
Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:45 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Andoros wrote:
I disagree with you. By refusing all contact with an ideology you (subjectively) deem infantile and unfit to exist, you do not invalidate it. You only make yourself look avoidant and that would imply you are incapable of proving said ideology wrong.

Hey, doesn't your region lend its forces to a region who's sole goal is to attack communist regions?

Oh, why yes, yes they do.


'Gee willikers Scooby! Under that enlightened centrist mask it was old man fascist all along!'
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



Issues editor, not a moderator.

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