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(Discussion) Nazi and Communist discrimination.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:22 am

Andoros wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:"Being edgy"(!) What nonsense.


It happens. Had I known that one's post history would come back to haunt so much, I probably would have never made that post. Huh, just like real politics and real scandals. Thank you for the experience.

You had been on the site for 2 months when you made that post, which was only made about 3 months ago...
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Kavagrad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:41 am

Andoros wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Lame excuse is lame.


I have already conceded defeat. I would ask you to be a courteous winner.

I thought I'd already made it perfectly clear that I have no courtesy for those that advocate for fascism. Particularly when they try and use the "I was just being edgy" cop-out.
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Isvataan
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Isvataan » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:29 pm

Personally I said if any discrimination needs to occur, it should be applied to all Authoritarian, Totalitarian (ex: Commie Reds and Stalin Socialists (S.S. for short)) ideologies, not only just Nazis.

Have only Democratic and Republican governments for players to play because all other ones have bad history to them. And the idea to express them will trigger those who see them as real immoral beings and likely harass them for roleplaying. Either by throwing condemnations, liberations or other forms of punishment to ensure they do not practice their freedom of expression because why not, they're Authoritarians/Totalitarians.

We could continue that course or we can just chill on people who want to be wannabe commies/socialists and nazis/fascists and focus on issues such as raiding, fake accounts, neoliberations.

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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:10 pm

Isvataan wrote:Personally I said if any discrimination needs to occur, it should be applied to all Authoritarian, Totalitarian (ex: Commie Reds and Stalin Socialists (S.S. for short)) ideologies, not only just Nazis.

Have only Democratic and Republican governments for players to play because all other ones have bad history to them. And the idea to express them will trigger those who see them as real immoral beings and likely harass them for roleplaying. Either by throwing condemnations, liberations or other forms of punishment to ensure they do not practice their freedom of expression because why not, they're Authoritarians/Totalitarians.

We could continue that course or we can just chill on people who want to be wannabe commies/socialists and nazis/fascists and focus on issues such as raiding, fake accounts, neoliberations.

The first is addressed when needed, the second is a mod thing not a SC thing, and the third is and always will be a stupid name for Offensive Liberations
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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:29 pm

Andoros wrote:Why does being a Nazi make a region a questionable region?

Man I don't think I could have frowned any harder when I read this.

Anyway, I agree with Roavin. Our action against NS fascists isn't entirely based on our dislike of the IRL ideology -- more often it's because NS fascists act reprehensibly on this site. Meanwhile, regardless of what IRL communists are like, NS communists are largely civil. That's a large part of why one side is more picked on than the other.

But also, you know, nazis deserve everything they get.

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Cedoria
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:47 pm

Andoros wrote:
Cosmopolitan borovan wrote:It won't. Anything resembling nazi in a region is questionable


Why does being a Nazi make a region a questionable region? As long as they follow forum rules and engage in constructive dialog, they should receive the benefit of being heard out. I don't know, maybe I'm too new and idealistic. Stereotypes are not easily broken.

They tend not to do this, being the principal problem.
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Cedoria
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:50 pm

Andoros wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Okay, let's turn this round. Why should anyone debate, and in doing so lend credance to an ideology that declares a whole swathe of the human race not to have human rights?


This is my subjective opinion. Because, leaving out the occultist racial theories, Nazism is just socialism with nationalistic characteristics. Both nationalism and socialism are accepted ideologies in the NationStates forum. Why can't these two be put together?


Nazism without occultist racialist pseudo-science isn't Nazism. You act like you can just neatly separate the two and make the whole idea OK.

Newsflash, you can't. Racialist positions are inevitable and required under Nazism. Without them, one is not a Nazi.
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Marshite Ponies
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Postby Marshite Ponies » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:13 am

In my opinion, the reason proposals about nations and regions promoting such ideologies tend to fail is because there is too much emphasis on their support of the ideology and that they have such beliefs rather than other elements. Believing in something is not, IMHO, notable or important, yet time and time again such proposals use it as a centerpiece.
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Chricoma
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chricoma » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:17 am

I wouldn't call it discrimination...
But I would say there is a problem with the WA condemning for reasons of politics, but it isn't against WA rules so nothing to do to stop it.

I'm what you'd call a "nazi" and really I don't feel too discriminated in the WA or in nation-states
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:12 pm

Chricoma wrote:I wouldn't call it discrimination...
But I would say there is a problem with the WA condemning for reasons of politics, but it isn't against WA rules so nothing to do to stop it.

I'm what you'd call a "nazi" and really I don't feel too discriminated in the WA or in nation-states

If it makes you feel better, I've put your region on my target list for whenever you CTE on the grounds of the founder (you) being a Nazi.
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North Saitama
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Founded: Jul 04, 2017
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Postby North Saitama » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:13 pm

Marshite Ponies wrote:In my opinion, the reason proposals about nations and regions promoting such ideologies tend to fail is because there is too much emphasis on their support of the ideology and that they have such beliefs rather than other elements. Believing in something is not, IMHO, notable or important, yet time and time again such proposals use it as a centerpiece.


This. My opinion is that, if they aren't personally doing anything, leave them alone. I always vote against these sort of resolutions for this reason, on this principle.

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Chricoma wrote:I wouldn't call it discrimination...
But I would say there is a problem with the WA condemning for reasons of politics, but it isn't against WA rules so nothing to do to stop it.

I'm what you'd call a "nazi" and really I don't feel too discriminated in the WA or in nation-states

If it makes you feel better, I've put your region on my target list for whenever you CTE on the grounds of the founder (you) being a Nazi.


And I have already voted against it.
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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:02 pm

Chricoma wrote:But I would say there is a problem with the WA condemning for reasons of politics

How is that a problem? This is a political game. That is entirely the point of the game.

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Conquerus
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Founded: Dec 21, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Conquerus » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:58 am

UYSSH wrote:I believe people should stop discriminating both Nazis and Commies for their beliefs. I've seen too much of it lately its time to act.

NS has always or at least for a long time been discriminating against Nazis. Every Nazi region I've seen has basically been shut off from the outside world. Commies, on the other hand, don't get discriminated. I don't know where you got that from. there are plenty or hard leftists here. In my opinion, I really don't see how this is a problem. Since NS is a political simulator, these nazis and commies are allowed to express their views freely and if people shun and shame them for that, there's nothing we can or should do. I am a very strong advocator for free speech, so of course I'd believe that, but still, if you have the right to express your views, then others should have the right to challenge them.

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Helseth
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Founded: Aug 06, 2013
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Postby Helseth » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:59 am

Here's the major difference over Nazi discrimination and Commie discrimination (or lack thereof for the latter). Communism on a whole, aside from the whole violent revolution part to overthrow the powers that be, isn't inherently "evil" as an ideology. Sure, you have what would be known as Stalinism, which was definitely not kosher, but that's only one of many different facets of what Communism is or isn't supposed to be etc. Unlike Socialism and Communism and their myriad beliefs/sub-beliefs, Nazism has basically one whole set of beliefs for it's ideology. Which doesn't change and no, modern "National Socialists" can't just change it and rename themselves. That's not a natural expansion and change of the ideology. It's basically a bunch of people who want to be authoritarian racists trying to bring back a shitty ideology.

In the NSGP community, and by that I mean the greater political arenas, there's only been a few hatemongering Leftists to make trouble.You can probably count them on one hand. The majority seem to not subscribe to the worst sub-elements or keep it to themselves. On the other hand, the Nazis, subscribe to one and only one form of ideology which is abhorrent. Some have tried to "remove" the most hated elements to appear "good" but that won't work. Thus, Nazis will be discriminated.

If there was a Leftist GP group/region advocating genocides and whatnot, they facet would get the same discrimination.

I do however have qualms about the recent trend of merging "fascism" and "Nazism" into the same boat. As Fascism itself has many varieties of sub-beliefs as Socialism or Communism does both abhorrent and not so abhorrent. I think that originated with TRF, CAIN, and other groups and just stuck.

Now then, we have "Roleplay Nazis", "Edgy Nazi Kids", and straight up real Neo-Nazis. The former really tend to be innocent folks that like to do historical roleplaying type things. They are likely to not to be given much breathing room but if anything more tolerated than the latter two.

The main reason why, is because Nazism is bad. People feel that innocent or not, bringing Nazism into this game gives it attention. That attention is what real Neo-Nazis use to try to convert people into actual Neo-Nazis. While I can't attest of the success or failure rate with that, it's a logical assumption that the more presence and exposure real Nazis can get, the more people see and are curious or whatever. It's a numbers game.

Like telegram recruiting. It's not easy to recruit and then retain people into your region and adapt to the regional culture. But constantly and consistently sending out telegrams and doing whatever seems to work best, is better than less or nothing in the long run.

Also in the end, again Nazism is abhorrent, so it's also felt it just has no place at all. People can cite Stalin and what he did all day, but Stalin didn't invent Communism and it's not about Stalin and what he did. I think that's an abhorrent sub-ideology, but we don't really have every leftist being ardent Stalinists here.

This is what I think of why, who, and what gets discriminated more, less, or whatnot.
Last edited by Helseth on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Demiurges
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Postby Demiurges » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:36 am

Heres a very easy solution on why Nazis are hated, and why they are bad. All summed up in only two words. "The Holocaust". Please, anybody feel free to prove me wrong and try to validate the completely needless genocide of 2 million unarmed innocent Jews. That event alone is reason enough to hold Nazis and Nazism in the highest levels of contempt.
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Isvataan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Isvataan » Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:46 pm

Demiurges wrote:Heres a very easy solution on why Nazis are hated, and why they are bad. All summed up in only two words. "The Holocaust". Please, anybody feel free to prove me wrong and try to validate the completely needless genocide of 2 million unarmed innocent Jews. That event alone is reason enough to hold Nazis and Nazism in the highest levels of contempt.


True and it should be noted under communism killed over 100 millions (Great leap forward and Great Purge) Both are very evil, only difference is that communists killed their own people where many people don't care (It even happens today, nobody cares about the terrible tragedies in the Syrian Civil War, quite upsetting). Nazis killed other people from different countries and then, people had issues with it.

Also, majority of people never talks about the other terrible genocides that other states preformed (such as the Belgium Congo holocaust (over a million Africans died),and the Armenian genocide (hundreds of thousands Greek, Balkans and Armenians died))

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Lord Dominator
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:44 pm

Isvataan wrote:
Demiurges wrote:Heres a very easy solution on why Nazis are hated, and why they are bad. All summed up in only two words. "The Holocaust". Please, anybody feel free to prove me wrong and try to validate the completely needless genocide of 2 million unarmed innocent Jews. That event alone is reason enough to hold Nazis and Nazism in the highest levels of contempt.


True and it should be noted under communism killed over 100 millions (Great leap forward and Great Purge) Both are very evil, only difference is that communists killed their own people where many people don't care (It even happens today, nobody cares about the terrible tragedies in the Syrian Civil War, quite upsetting). Nazis killed other people from different countries and then, people had issues with it.

Also, majority of people never talks about the other terrible genocides that other states preformed (such as the Belgium Congo holocaust (over a million Africans died),and the Armenian genocide (hundreds of thousands Greek, Balkans and Armenians died))

For the record, I think people would be happy to trash regions espousing mass-murder the Communist way. The other two I can say generally aren't cared about in this context because no one really tries to make a Colonial Belgium or Ottoman Empire themed region.
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