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[DRAFT] Commend Queen Yuno

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Escade
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Postby Escade » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:21 pm

Super for this of course, and I love the Yuno vibe. :hug:

I think we don't always need to do things the old-fashioned way bc cave life was mad boring. Creativity and fun and good cheer for the win <3

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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:52 am

Aclion wrote:I hope you don't intent to act on that feeling in a mod capacity. It would be quit strange to have a precedent that says "Branding is allowed, unless Fris feels it is undeserved"

Then they deserve a place in the forum thread, not the proposal body. I'm with Wrapper on this. Leaving those in makes this a non-starter.

The rest of his post kinda implies he is agreeing with Wrapper in a mod capacity but thats just the way I read it.

Escade wrote: I think we don't always need to do things the old-fashioned way bc cave life was mad boring. Creativity and fun and good cheer for the win <3

Are you saying that the SC rules shouldn't apply to some players because they're more liked than others? :eyebrow:
Last edited by Drop Your Pants on Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:13 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:The rest of his post kinda implies he is agreeing with Wrapper in a mod capacity but thats just the way I read it.

Yet his reason is not an argument to illegality, but a red herring.
    "Listing supporters isn't allowed"
    "This is not what 'supporters' refers to"
    "Then they don't deserve a place in the proposal"
Weak argument is weak.
Last edited by Aclion on Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:23 am

Aclion wrote:Yet his reason is not an argument to illegality, but a red herring.
    "Listing supporters isn't allowed"
    "This is not what 'supporters' refers to"
    "Then they don't deserve a place in the proposal"
Weak argument is weak.

So if not supporters, what are they?
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Ramaeus
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Postby Ramaeus » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:47 am

Aclion wrote:Yet his reason is not an argument to illegality, but a red herring.
    "Listing supporters isn't allowed"
    "This is not what 'supporters' refers to"
    "Then they don't deserve a place in the proposal"
Weak argument is weak.

As you can see below, it is illegal. The only way you can interpret a list of "allies" is as a list of supporters. Merriam-Webster states one of the definitions of an ally as: "one that is associated with another as a helper : a person or group that provides assistance and support in an ongoing effort, activity, or struggle ".
However, it is not appropriate to have a list of supporters within your proposal, especially after the operative clause. If you wish to cite native support for a Liberation, do so within the bulk of the proposal - see here. Additionally, attempts to spell out your name with bolded letters, or other such silliness, will likely be deemed illegal under Rule 2 (use your common sense). More on the use of acrostics can be found here.


UM, you might be able to change the list of supporters to a much shorter clause stating "With much dismay, the Security Council acknowledges that the LOLigarch and Sovereign Lord Protector of the Realms of the Eastern Pacific maintains an overwhelming fleet of allies from all areas of these nation states. These allies include inhabitants and leaders of some of the largest and most powerful regions present in our universe." It's harder to make a credible argument regarding my phrasing being illegal.

EDIT:
Jakker wrote:It is very Yuno though :P

There are a lot of words in this proposal, but minimal substance. Additionally, at first glance, "Delegate endorsement counts" strikes me as a 4(c) violation.

That would probably be legal terminology, Jakker. See here:
Any term included within NationStates the game - eg. passwords, World Factbook Entries, founders, eject, 'black helicopters transporting nations between regions' - legal (see here, here, here, here and here)


If UM wished to avoid running afoul of a 4C violation, he should consider changing the phrasing to: Endorsements received as Delegate of The East Pacific.

Regardless, in its current state, I am against this proposal. It's lacking a lot in most categories.

The impression I receive from this draft is: 800 endorsements, lots of pink, did some neato things in other regions, and wrote a guide or two. In other words, remove most of the fluff, and you have: 800 endorsements and did some things in other regions that, while interesting, aren't all that noteworthy. You can do better, UM.
Last edited by Ramaeus on Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Former thing.

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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:12 am

Ramaeus wrote:EDIT:
Jakker wrote:It is very Yuno though :P

There are a lot of words in this proposal, but minimal substance. Additionally, at first glance, "Delegate endorsement counts" strikes me as a 4(c) violation.

That would probably be legal terminology, Jakker. See here:
Any term included within NationStates the game - eg. passwords, World Factbook Entries, founders, eject, 'black helicopters transporting nations between regions' - legal (see here, here, here, here and here)


If UM wished to avoid running afoul of a 4C violation, he should consider changing the phrasing to: Endorsements received as Delegate of The East Pacific.


It was the word "counts" in that context that gave me pause, so your suggestion sounds good to me.
Last edited by Jakker on Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:04 pm

Ramaeus wrote:
Aclion wrote:Yet his reason is not an argument to illegality, but a red herring.
    "Listing supporters isn't allowed"
    "This is not what 'supporters' refers to"
    "Then they don't deserve a place in the proposal"
Weak argument is weak.

As you can see below, it is illegal. The only way you can interpret a list of "allies" is as a list of supporters. Merriam-Webster states one of the definitions of an ally as: "one that is associated with another as a helper : a person or group that provides assistance and support in an ongoing effort, activity, or struggle ".

Already addressed.
Aclion wrote:I thought the list of supporters rule referred to lists of the proposal's supporters, not people who have "supported" the target nation.

That's how this "well they still don't deserve to be mentioned" argument came up.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Xoriet
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Postby Xoriet » Sun Oct 07, 2018 2:53 pm

While I support a Commendation of Yuno, I don't support this version. Rules violations aside, this reads like propaganda rather than a solid proposal. Yuno deserves better than the phrasing in this version.

Incidentally, LOLigarch is both incorrect (the people who came up with that word never specified what the composition of the word was comprised of) and makes it sound less serious.

If you want a serious Commendation of Yuno, don't write it like a joking propaganda piece that detracts from the good Yuno did.
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Queen Yuno
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Postby Queen Yuno » Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:47 pm

Xoriet wrote:While I support a Commendation of Yuno, I don't support this version. Rules violations aside, this reads like propaganda rather than a solid proposal. Yuno deserves better than the phrasing in this version.

Incidentally, LOLigarch is both incorrect (the people who came up with that word never specified what the composition of the word was comprised of) and makes it sound less serious.

If you want a serious Commendation of Yuno, don't write it like a joking propaganda piece that detracts from the good Yuno did.

Could you list some of the "good" that I did that UM left out?

Unfortunately, I can't remember most of my accomplishments, (legitimately, I always struggled to answer whenever Kuriko asked me what I've done in NS, you can ask her.) That's why I'm not picky about it, because it's *difficult* to write my history, and in fact, the first/primary things I could remember were people I worked with.

Basically,
Writing a Queen Yuno Commend is tremendously strenuous when I can't even remember what's "important" about my own NS history, so thank you for your virtuous intentions, but... I'm not picky ^^; So, I have to thank UM for his respectable efforts despite my terrible explanations. Also, good luck on yours! I just noticed it, and saw that yours have specifics down to the detail, which is admirable/historical/impressive, but I don't expect UM to have specific records of my raids or R/D (when I don't even have them on me either.)
See you around ^_^
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:00 pm

Stop posting in this thread Yuno. :p

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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:03 am

Queen Yuno wrote:but I don't expect UM to have specific records of my raids or R/D (when I don't even have them on me either.)

He's mentioned 3 GCR militaries in the proposal and none of them have records of your R/D with them? I thought all groups kept logs of their movements.
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Malphe
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Postby Malphe » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:27 am

Yuno ever served in the NPA? I don't recall that.
Last edited by Malphe on Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:31 am

Malphe wrote:Yuno ever served in the NPA? I don't recall that.

She's served with SPSF/TWPAF/EPSA/our one/whatever Osiris's one was and odds are probs at least one of the other ones. I can't think of anything NPA off the top of my head, but that said, it's not like I watch GP that thoroughly.
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Roavin
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Postby Roavin » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:37 am

Also under the auspicious watch of the LOLigarch and Sovereign Lord Protector of the Realms of the Eastern Pacific, the South Pacific Special Forces experienced increased success in spreading democratic cosmopolitanism to realms far and wide.


While well-intentioned, this clause is not particularly accurate, and kinda undersells Yuno. What Yuno did was, well, what Yuno does best - getting people moving, both in terms of recruiting them to SPSF and to getting them to turn out for the big operations. She did all of this without upsetting SPSF' operating paradigm of "defender-leaning unaligned", despite coming from an almost purely raider-oriented background.

What I have most issues with is "spreading democratic cosmopolitanism". It implies that SPSF did alot of raiding (it didn't) and I guess I just don't get the "cosmopolitanism" part at all in that context, despite trying to think of it for a while. Maybe you can elaborate on what you meant, UM?
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:20 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Queen Yuno wrote:but I don't expect UM to have specific records of my raids or R/D (when I don't even have them on me either.)

He's mentioned 3 GCR militaries in the proposal and none of them have records of your R/D with them? I thought all groups kept logs of their movements.

Yuno was clearly in SPSF, EPSA, and TWPAF.

She told me she was in NPA, but not for a long period of time.
Last edited by United Massachusetts on Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:51 am

United Massachusetts wrote:Yuno was clearly in SPSF, EPSA, and TWPAF.

She told me she was in NPA, but not for a long period of time.

Glad to hear it. But is it clear to a player not part of the GCRs? Did you ask them for examples of operations she participated in?
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Escade
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Postby Escade » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:Are you saying that the SC rules shouldn't apply to some players because they're more liked than others? :eyebrow:


I'm saying there's probably a work-around, honestly where you say the same thing worded differently so I will hope the language experts can deal with that.

As for accomplishments for Yuno just off the top of my head (can brainstorm more later but these I witnessed and for example Yuno trained me in the SPSF too. These are not SC compliant yet but feel free to adapt or I'll try myself later on this week!

In the South Pacific, As Minister of Military Affairs, Yuno recruited and expanded military membership of a often struggling military and provided training to not only her own troops but shared military resources with the NationStates world at large.

In the NationStates community, Yuno shared resources and knowledge on a consistent basis through dispatch such as those that showed players how to endorse easily using tools, a guide to military gameplay, among others.

Yuno is most definetively a member of an elite class of intel power brokers and has a very intricate network that helps her always know what is going on and keep on top of crises both in game and out of game.

Yuno created a very recognizable in-game persona and a world around it that would be referred to as a cult and that is difficult to do and requires creativity, time, and a certain charisma.

Her accomplishments in TEP go beyond the above and should be highlighted as well.

I think if we can keep a positive focus and take that like diamond in the rough approach then the proposal will be refined to an awesome level of shinyness.
Last edited by Escade on Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Drop Your Pants
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Postby Drop Your Pants » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:39 am

If the name list is cut then there's a lot more room to expand on Yuno's achievements. Waiting on UM to edit the draft.
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:26 am

I thought about posting here for a while...

Yuno was complicit in the departure of every old guard member Drachen chased out of the region. She allowed toxic individuals to remain in government because they were her friends. She made excuses for people who had no real interest in their jobs and who mistreated other TEPers regularly. Yuno defended multiple cases of problematic events or behavior happening within the TEP community. Yuno is responsible for the members of TEP who are doing the most harm to the community internally, and she was backstabbed by them as well. This is the TEP that Yuno defends, and this is not a TEP I would endorse someone for, or commend someone for.

I also can't say I'm a fan of the fucking nominee herself posting in this thread asking people to list more positive accomplishments for her.

Malphe wrote:Yuno ever served in the NPA? I don't recall that.


If her service was that brief or un-memorable, then it probably shouldn't be listed in a Commendation proposal.
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Malphe
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Postby Malphe » Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:47 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Malphe wrote:Yuno ever served in the NPA? I don't recall that.


If her service was that brief or un-memorable, then it probably shouldn't be listed in a Commendation proposal.

Apparently she was for less than a month in May 2016, but never attended any operations and was never promoted, take that as you will. Was legitimately difficult for me to find any record of it.
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Pinky and the Brain's moderately more successful cousin-
- and apparently Rach's adopted son.
[b]Ur a thot malphe - Salvarity
Malphe you could never disappoint - Kyorgia
Malphe is a snitch - Kyrusia
We already knew you were scum Malphe - Badger
Malphe region exists! I'm not the only narcissist with a self titled region! - Vandoosa
That darn Malphe guy is a real menace - Imki
I’m up for watching you get DOS’d, Malphe - Ark
heard this nasty rumor that malphe was a udl plant - Mall
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United Massachusetts
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Postby United Massachusetts » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:35 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:If the name list is cut then there's a lot more room to expand on Yuno's achievements. Waiting on UM to edit the draft.

I'm going to find time to edit the draft.
Malphe wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:
If her service was that brief or un-memorable, then it probably shouldn't be listed in a Commendation proposal.

Apparently she was for less than a month in May 2016, but never attended any operations and was never promoted, take that as you will. Was legitimately difficult for me to find any record of it.

OK. I'll remove the reference then. I didn't know.
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RiderSyl
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Postby RiderSyl » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:43 pm

It's a bunch of silly memes with an eye-searing, badly formatted "friends list" pasted onto it.

This may be the Commendation that Yuno wants, but it's not the one she deserves.
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Alkasia
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Postby Alkasia » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 am

United Massachusetts wrote:herein referred to as the LOLigarch and Sovereign Lord Protector of the Realms of the Eastern Pacific


I think putting a full title of this length in almost every clause is needlessly tedious. Queen Yuno or pronouns should suffice. It would be like if people referred to Daenerys by her long-ass title every time they addressed her.


I do agree with the sentiment that it's worded too... religiously. Having that kind of flavour on things in the region is one thing. Please don't go Glorious Leader on us for the commendation at least. We're commending a nation for their accomplishments, not praising a religious icon.
Specifically this last bit I have issue with:
United Massachusetts wrote:The Security Council, down in adoration falling, by the divine power of its name, under the auspicious eye of Violet, by the advice and the authority of its Delegates and member nations, hereby acknowledging the beauty of eye-searing shades of pink, hails (o7) and commends Queen Yuno.

Like really?

I have a little bit of issue with the embellishment of the preamble, but that's not enough of a deal for me to care.

I actually don't mind the friends list all that much, even if I was excluded from it. >_> That being said, if it's kept, do change Lenlyvit to Kuriko.

We're at the character limit. If we need more room for Yuno's accomplishments, which it looks like we do, there are lots of ways to cut this down.
1. Change the long-ass title in every clause to just. Queen. Yuno.
2.Cut down on the embellishment at the beginning and end. Precious characters wasted.
3. The jokes present in clause 1d are expendable.
4. Obviously cut down the friends list if needed. It isn't a necessity in the proposal. Also if enough people oppose it, it would be a shame to see the commendation fail because of it- something to keep in mind.

This can be tightened up a lot.
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Wrapper
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Postby Wrapper » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 am

There’s no point in discussing who does/doesn’t belong on that friends list. As long as such a list is included, the proposal is illegal.

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ZuKcHIvA
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Postby ZuKcHIvA » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:25 am

My level of skill in analyzing GA and SC proposals is next to nothing, but I'm here to voice my support for the complete and total removal of the allies list, even if my name is in it.

It makes no sense to hold back a commendation because of a list of supporters just to have them recognized. Yuno, kindness is so much sometimes, it's another reason that you deserve a commendation. But the recognition we can get is only needed from our own regions and communities. A commendation should only focus on the person it is commending! If we ever do enough in NS, we will get our own. But for now, this commendation in this draft thread is meant to commend Yuno and no one else.

Thus, my support for the complete removal of thank you list of allies in the proposals! :D
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