NATION

PASSWORD

Proposal:Liberate the Communist Bloc

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Calamari
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 18
Founded: May 17, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Calamari » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:45 pm

Lalop wrote:FURIOUS
That the CB has shown that it refuses the right of all political thoughts to make a home on nation states.


Additionally, I (a right leaning centrist, the flag is for rp) in a conservative region, have diplomat status on the CB's discord. This is not true.

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Novoyevraziya
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Nov 30, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Novoyevraziya » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:57 pm

:clap: :clap: It is genuinely amusing to see this kind of garbage being put forward as if it was a serious proposal.

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North Saitama
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 182
Founded: Jul 04, 2017
Anarchy

Postby North Saitama » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:15 pm

The only thing I will credit this proposal with is revealing the inconsistency of some nations when the shoe is on the other foot (though I do congratulate those who remained consistent).

Besides that, it is nothing more than more ideological warfare, and this has to stop. The WA should not be an ideological enforcement agency, and should promote peace, not war.
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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5513
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:40 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?


Right. As one of the non-Fascists who expressed outrage and disgust at the proposal to """liberate""" CCD, I stand by my principles here as well. Sorry if that disrupts the narrative you were trying to spin.

This disgusting misuse of liberation proposals to attack regions that deviate from the norm in terms of political positions needs to end before it spins out of control and no region is safe. It doesn't matter what they believe - it's not the Security Council's job to punish people for having different opinions. Proposals like this are why many people think the SC is corrupt, which it evidently is if these sanctioned raids are being passed in spite of stiff resistance.



Well that's one of you, but lots of others who got on that sad soapbox are nowhere to be found, and Forestavia didn't even try to address the hypocrisy here.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5513
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:43 pm

Andoros wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Really? That's your argument...

Well shit, and here I was reading through the last century or so of really, really convoluted left wing thought and the answer was there all along. It's all about being spiteful. Glad we cleared that up. What's next? It won't work because of human nature?


Fine, you disagree. But prove me, a political illiterate wrong then. The way I see it, ultranationalism is just taking the "love" way too far, while communism is about getting revenge and redistributing a society's wealth supposedly equally. But that never works out, some always accumulate more wealth and power and become the new upper class. You have an entire revolution, bloodshed and fighting, but nothing changes in the end and someday the cycle will start again. So why not fight communism? It always brings with itself misery, suffering and pain, just like fanatical purism and nationalism.



I point out all the examples of Communism that didn't do that...

Spanish Revolution era anarchist and libertarian groups didn't do that in the regions they occupied, and I doubt anybody today would suggest the Kurdish Rojava are on the level of ISIS or Assad..

And changes nothing? Literally every metric of even the USSR (an example I don't like) proves that completely wrong.

It's probably not a smart idea to argue about such things when you admit to political illiteracy on the point.
Last edited by Cedoria on Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

Founding member of The Leftist Assembly

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Andoros
Secretary
 
Posts: 29
Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:35 am

Cedoria wrote:
Andoros wrote:
Fine, you disagree. But prove me, a political illiterate wrong then. The way I see it, ultranationalism is just taking the "love" way too far, while communism is about getting revenge and redistributing a society's wealth supposedly equally. But that never works out, some always accumulate more wealth and power and become the new upper class. You have an entire revolution, bloodshed and fighting, but nothing changes in the end and someday the cycle will start again. So why not fight communism? It always brings with itself misery, suffering and pain, just like fanatical purism and nationalism.



I point out all the examples of Communism that didn't do that...

Spanish Revolution era anarchist and libertarian groups didn't do that in the regions they occupied, and I doubt anybody today would suggest the Kurdish Rojava are on the level of ISIS or Assad..

And changes nothing? Literally every metric of even the USSR (an example I don't like) proves that completely wrong.

It's probably not a smart idea to argue about such things when you admit to political illiteracy on the point.


Fine, I don't know about the Spanish Revolution, it was a cluster**** of ideologies. But wasn't the Republican side seriously influenced by the Soviet Union, a socialist-communist country born out of bloodshed? Kurdish Rojava and Assad are both socialist regimes though and have certainly committed atrocities during the war. And yes, fundamentally, nothing changed in the USSR for the better. Sure, it got rid of the old nobility and eventually improved the situation of really poor people. But it also devastated the land and killed or exiled much of the intelligentsia, which made further development seriously difficult and even stagnated it. And soon after, a new "nobility" arose from the members of the party, a new upper class. "Some are more equal than others" etc. Was it worth it? I personally would say no, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

I would also ask of you not to be so condescending towards people who are politically "less smart". How are they supposed to learn if they cannot voice their opinion publicly? I am trying to debate, not argue (We both know we are not going to convince the other in the end, I believe.)

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New Bremerton
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 153
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New Bremerton » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:37 pm

I've been trawling TNP's regional threads and Discord, and some people have pointed out that certain communist regions are more "legit" than others. So I did some digging around, and here's what I found. I just read TCB's constitution, which appears to be democratic, despite the misleading and objectionable label of "communist".

This, on the other hand, is an example of an actual communist region comprising RL communists who make no attempt to hide their true colors: https://www.nationstates.net/region=north_korea

They would be no different than a region that seeks to emulate Nazi Germany in every single way, complete with a swastika.

And this appears to be a genuinely communist region that may or may not be RL: https://www.nationstates.net/region=ussd

Both of these leftist regions ought to be liberated ASAP. But I'm now beginning to think an offensive liberation of TCB may be excessive and disproportionate to the crime committed. I now believe a condemnation would be more appropriate, for referring to themselves as "communists" and associating themselves with a failed, destructive and expansionist ideology whose leading proponents attempted to turn the whole world into North Korea during the Cold War, with no IRL disclaimer.

But the democratic nature of TCB means that a liberation would be out of order, and so would a liberation of a democratic conservative region with the word "fascist" in its name, with no IRL disclaimer. Honestly, I don't even know why they would want to call themselves "communists" when they seem to behave more like democratic socialists. While I am against extreme, totalitarian ideologies in principle, I also believe in the concept of proportionality. Therefore, I am now AGAINST any liberation of TCB, but FOR a condemnation, should one be proposed. Additionally, because TCB is a democratic region and not an autocratic dictatorship like the CCD, it is therefore not an enemy of New Bremerton, nor is it a friend or ally. TNP should not declare war on them either. Democracies do not fight one another. But I stand by everything else I have said about communism so far. As for me personally, I'm still trying to formulate a fair and coherent policy vis a vis offensive liberations and when they should be invoked.

P.S. To prove the point that leftists often end up accusing non-fascists of being fascist and that claims of a slippery slope are not entirely unfounded, even if liberations against non-fascist regions ultimately fail, I just had a quick look at USSD's RMB, and it appears that TCB has recently severed ties with their fellow communist region on the grounds that the region's founder is somehow a fascist and that everyone else is a "fascist collaborator". Tolerance and diversity indeed.
The Holy Republic of New Bremerton
Region: The North Pacific
General Assembly: IC
Security Council: OOC

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Kavagrad
Diplomat
 
Posts: 743
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:45 pm

New Bremerton wrote:P.S. To prove the point that leftists often end up accusing non-fascists of being fascist and that claims of a slippery slope are not entirely unfounded, even if liberations against non-fascist regions ultimately fail, I just had a quick look at USSD's RMB, and it appears that TCB has recently severed ties with their fellow communist region on the grounds that the region's founder is somehow a fascist and that everyone else is a "fascist collaborator". Tolerance and diversity indeed.


You've quite obviously done little to no research into the subject matter beyond that "quick look" either. There is a long and complex history between pretty much every Leftist region and USSD. The smugness of a statement like "Tolerance and diversity indeed" is unbecoming of someone that doesn't actually know what they're talking about. Even I wouldn't be confident enough in my own knowledge to make statements with that level of self-assurance, and I've been on-and-off this site, in various nations and regions, since late 2012.
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Sobriety is the future of Anti-Fascism

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5513
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:53 pm

Andoros wrote:
Cedoria wrote:

I point out all the examples of Communism that didn't do that...

Spanish Revolution era anarchist and libertarian groups didn't do that in the regions they occupied, and I doubt anybody today would suggest the Kurdish Rojava are on the level of ISIS or Assad..

And changes nothing? Literally every metric of even the USSR (an example I don't like) proves that completely wrong.

It's probably not a smart idea to argue about such things when you admit to political illiteracy on the point.


Fine, I don't know about the Spanish Revolution, it was a cluster**** of ideologies. But wasn't the Republican side seriously influenced by the Soviet Union, a socialist-communist country born out of bloodshed? Kurdish Rojava and Assad are both socialist regimes though and have certainly committed atrocities during the war. And yes, fundamentally, nothing changed in the USSR for the better. Sure, it got rid of the old nobility and eventually improved the situation of really poor people. But it also devastated the land and killed or exiled much of the intelligentsia, which made further development seriously difficult and even stagnated it. And soon after, a new "nobility" arose from the members of the party, a new upper class. "Some are more equal than others" etc. Was it worth it? I personally would say no, but you are entitled to your own opinion.

I would also ask of you not to be so condescending towards people who are politically "less smart". How are they supposed to learn if they cannot voice their opinion publicly? I am trying to debate, not argue (We both know we are not going to convince the other in the end, I believe.)


Atrocities are literally what comprises wartime. By that logic every ideology in human history is irreedeemably evil and we should liberate the all.

No nation on the planet isn't born out of bloodshed dude it's how nations get made. You think the War of Independence and Manifest Destiny weren't exactly the same thing?

If you want to get more respect for your opinion, you could start by having one that is at least partially respectable, in the sense of being backed up by even the slightest bit of evidence and not just completely cherry-picked.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5513
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:55 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
P.S. To prove the point that leftists often end up accusing non-fascists of being fascist and that claims of a slippery slope are not entirely unfounded, even if liberations against non-fascist regions ultimately fail, I just had a quick look at USSD's RMB, and it appears that TCB has recently severed ties with their fellow communist region on the grounds that the region's founder is somehow a fascist and that everyone else is a "fascist collaborator". Tolerance and diversity indeed.


You have proved no such point, the issues with USSD and pretty much every other Leftist region have essentially nothing to do with whatever crap you seem to think they are about. If you want actual information, the principals involved will be more than happy to explain the cause of that split.

But you don't, you just want to use it to push a grotesquely obvious ideological barrow.
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

Founding member of The Leftist Assembly

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New Bremerton
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 153
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New Bremerton » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:14 pm

Cedoria wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:
P.S. To prove the point that leftists often end up accusing non-fascists of being fascist and that claims of a slippery slope are not entirely unfounded, even if liberations against non-fascist regions ultimately fail, I just had a quick look at USSD's RMB, and it appears that TCB has recently severed ties with their fellow communist region on the grounds that the region's founder is somehow a fascist and that everyone else is a "fascist collaborator". Tolerance and diversity indeed.


You have proved no such point, the issues with USSD and pretty much every other Leftist region have essentially nothing to do with whatever crap you seem to think they are about. If you want actual information, the principals involved will be more than happy to explain the cause of that split.

But you don't, you just want to use it to push a grotesquely obvious ideological barrow.


Alright. You got me. I haven't been on this site for long, and I accept your offer. Please explain to me what's going on between you guys. I'm willing and ready to change my mind. I still think NK is an RL communist region to be liberated though. For RP purposes at least. But I'm willing to give TCB some leeway. As I've said before, the last thing I want to do is engage in a witch hunt without sufficient evidence. Due process MUST be upheld.

Edit: I don't know if this thread is the place to do it though.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Holy Republic of New Bremerton
Region: The North Pacific
General Assembly: IC
Security Council: OOC

"Liberi Fatali"

This nation does not use NSStats.

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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
Posts: 3774
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:57 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
You have proved no such point, the issues with USSD and pretty much every other Leftist region have essentially nothing to do with whatever crap you seem to think they are about. If you want actual information, the principals involved will be more than happy to explain the cause of that split.

But you don't, you just want to use it to push a grotesquely obvious ideological barrow.


Alright. You got me. I haven't been on this site for long, and I accept your offer. Please explain to me what's going on between you guys. I'm willing and ready to change my mind. I still think NK is an RL communist region to be liberated though. For RP purposes at least. But I'm willing to give TCB some leeway. As I've said before, the last thing I want to do is engage in a witch hunt without sufficient evidence. Due process MUST be upheld.

Edit: I don't know if this thread is the place to do it though.

I personally recommend tgs, or RMB/Discord communication for ease, but that's me
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Cedoria
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5513
Founded: Feb 22, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Cedoria » Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
Cedoria wrote:
You have proved no such point, the issues with USSD and pretty much every other Leftist region have essentially nothing to do with whatever crap you seem to think they are about. If you want actual information, the principals involved will be more than happy to explain the cause of that split.

But you don't, you just want to use it to push a grotesquely obvious ideological barrow.


Alright. You got me. I haven't been on this site for long, and I accept your offer. Please explain to me what's going on between you guys. I'm willing and ready to change my mind. I still think NK is an RL communist region to be liberated though. For RP purposes at least. But I'm willing to give TCB some leeway. As I've said before, the last thing I want to do is engage in a witch hunt without sufficient evidence. Due process MUST be upheld.

Edit: I don't know if this thread is the place to do it though.


I'll telegram you what I know:)
In real life I am a libertarian socialist/democratic socialist
★Comrade of the Commonwealth of Socialist States (CSS)★
Likes: Freedom of speech, Freedom of Expression, Direct Democracy, Worker Owned Cooperatives, Secularism, Anti-Theism, Freedom of civil disobediance, Libertarian Socialism, Social equity for minorities.

Dislikes: Neo-Conservatism, Neo-Liberalism, Stalinism, Capitalism, American Exceptionalism, Most world leaders, Religious bigotry, Despots of virtually any kind, Imperialism, Putinism, Economic Inequality, Identity Politics, Fascism and assorted far-right movements.

Nation doesn't reflect my actual views. Merely for RP purposes. If you want my real views, check my sig:)

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Shamian
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 4
Founded: Mar 29, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Shamian » Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:20 am

Considering that since at least last November, the vast majority of TCB's elected government - myself included - has comprised of anarchists of one flavour or another, I find this thread highly amusing.

It's worth pointing out however that:
1/there has never really been a communist nation IRL - all nations that have been labeled as such have actually been socialist, which is a different beast altogether.

2/anarchism and end state communism are all but indistinguishable; both seek the withering of the state and a transfer of political power to the people. However they follow different paths to get there, which is why TCB has seen a trend towards direct democratic engagement, with the collapse of both single and multi-party systems.

3/TCB adheres to no central ideology; we believe that all leftist viewpoints are equally valid. Indeed, we also welcome anyone who wishes to debate our ideas with us - so long as they refrain from trolling. I challenge *any* openly fascist region to justifiably say the same.

4/This and the fact that we are so openly anti-statist is probably the real reason that we keep getting targeted by nonsensical WA proposals by right wing authoritarians. The fact that TCB does not now, has not ever, and probably never will - password protect our region, just goes to show how pointless this proposal was. Especially since both our WA delegate and both his deputies, all have more endorsements than most raiders have members. Regardless, should we ever be either condemned or liberated for our beliefs and opposition to fascists - which is after all, what this idiocy was truly about - then we shall wear it with pride for all to see, just the same as if we were commended for it.

5/Regarding USSD; as the person who was nominated to send *that* region-wide telegram to all of ussd's residents, to explain exactly why we were severing ties (complete with screenshots), I can confirm that our regions are neither friends nor allies at the present time. Indeed, rather than the rebuttal and logical explanation we expected in reply to said telegram, we instead received an expletive ridden tirade from their founder.

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New Bremerton
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 153
Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New Bremerton » Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:53 am

Shamian wrote:Considering that since at least last November, the vast majority of TCB's elected government - myself included - has comprised of anarchists of one flavour or another, I find this thread highly amusing.

It's worth pointing out however that:
1/there has never really been a communist nation IRL - all nations that have been labeled as such have actually been socialist, which is a different beast altogether.

2/anarchism and end state communism are all but indistinguishable; both seek the withering of the state and a transfer of political power to the people. However they follow different paths to get there, which is why TCB has seen a trend towards direct democratic engagement, with the collapse of both single and multi-party systems.

3/TCB adheres to no central ideology; we believe that all leftist viewpoints are equally valid. Indeed, we also welcome anyone who wishes to debate our ideas with us - so long as they refrain from trolling. I challenge *any* openly fascist region to justifiably say the same.

4/This and the fact that we are so openly anti-statist is probably the real reason that we keep getting targeted by nonsensical WA proposals by right wing authoritarians. The fact that TCB does not now, has not ever, and probably never will - password protect our region, just goes to show how pointless this proposal was. Especially since both our WA delegate and both his deputies, all have more endorsements than most raiders have members. Regardless, should we ever be either condemned or liberated for our beliefs and opposition to fascists - which is after all, what this idiocy was truly about - then we shall wear it with pride for all to see, just the same as if we were commended for it.

5/Regarding USSD; as the person who was nominated to send *that* region-wide telegram to all of ussd's residents, to explain exactly why we were severing ties (complete with screenshots), I can confirm that our regions are neither friends nor allies at the present time. Indeed, rather than the rebuttal and logical explanation we expected in reply to said telegram, we instead received an expletive ridden tirade from their founder.


Expletive-ridden you say? Damn. I guess we should definitely liberate USSD then. I'm willing to cooperate with the NSLeft to combat IRL communists, fascists and plain old dictatorships alike. As for some of what I said earlier, most of it was aimed at what I consider to be RL leftists and regressive "pseudo-liberals" with their brand of divisive identity politics. My anger was directed mainly at them, not you guys.

Serious question: If most of you are in fact anarchists, whom I and New Bremerton have nothing against, then why call yourselves "communists"? I'm genuinely baffled.

For roleplay purposes, New Bremerton will be voting FOR a condemnation of your region if a proposal comes along, simply for calling yourselves "communists". But a liberation would be inappropriate, given how democratic you actually are. OOCly, it's nothing personal. Just having some fun here. I think we've all been guilty of OOC personal attacks over RL ideological differences. This needs to stop. This applies to me as much as it does to everyone else. It's a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed.

Edit: I take back what I said about tolerance and diversity, and I apologize.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Sat Oct 06, 2018 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Holy Republic of New Bremerton
Region: The North Pacific
General Assembly: IC
Security Council: OOC

"Liberi Fatali"

This nation does not use NSStats.

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Inberdia
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 21
Founded: Jun 11, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Inberdia » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:44 pm

New Bremerton wrote:
Shamian wrote:Considering that since at least last November, the vast majority of TCB's elected government - myself included - has comprised of anarchists of one flavour or another, I find this thread highly amusing.

It's worth pointing out however that:
1/there has never really been a communist nation IRL - all nations that have been labeled as such have actually been socialist, which is a different beast altogether.

2/anarchism and end state communism are all but indistinguishable; both seek the withering of the state and a transfer of political power to the people. However they follow different paths to get there, which is why TCB has seen a trend towards direct democratic engagement, with the collapse of both single and multi-party systems.

3/TCB adheres to no central ideology; we believe that all leftist viewpoints are equally valid. Indeed, we also welcome anyone who wishes to debate our ideas with us - so long as they refrain from trolling. I challenge *any* openly fascist region to justifiably say the same.

4/This and the fact that we are so openly anti-statist is probably the real reason that we keep getting targeted by nonsensical WA proposals by right wing authoritarians. The fact that TCB does not now, has not ever, and probably never will - password protect our region, just goes to show how pointless this proposal was. Especially since both our WA delegate and both his deputies, all have more endorsements than most raiders have members. Regardless, should we ever be either condemned or liberated for our beliefs and opposition to fascists - which is after all, what this idiocy was truly about - then we shall wear it with pride for all to see, just the same as if we were commended for it.

5/Regarding USSD; as the person who was nominated to send *that* region-wide telegram to all of ussd's residents, to explain exactly why we were severing ties (complete with screenshots), I can confirm that our regions are neither friends nor allies at the present time. Indeed, rather than the rebuttal and logical explanation we expected in reply to said telegram, we instead received an expletive ridden tirade from their founder.


Expletive-ridden you say? Damn. I guess we should definitely liberate USSD then. I'm willing to cooperate with the NSLeft to combat IRL communists, fascists and plain old dictatorships alike. As for some of what I said earlier, most of it was aimed at what I consider to be RL leftists and regressive "pseudo-liberals" with their brand of divisive identity politics. My anger was directed mainly at them, not you guys.

Serious question: If most of you are in fact anarchists, whom I and New Bremerton have nothing against, then why call yourselves "communists"? I'm genuinely baffled.

For roleplay purposes, New Bremerton will be voting FOR a condemnation of your region if a proposal comes along, simply for calling yourselves "communists". But a liberation would be inappropriate, given how democratic you actually are. OOCly, it's nothing personal. Just having some fun here. I think we've all been guilty of OOC personal attacks over RL ideological differences. This needs to stop. This applies to me as much as it does to everyone else. It's a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed.

Edit: I take back what I said about tolerance and diversity, and I apologize.

Anarcho-communism is an ideology, and those who follow it are technically anarchists and communists.

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Forestavia
Envoy
 
Posts: 213
Founded: Oct 06, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Forestavia » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:58 am

Cedoria wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Right. As one of the non-Fascists who expressed outrage and disgust at the proposal to """liberate""" CCD, I stand by my principles here as well. Sorry if that disrupts the narrative you were trying to spin.

This disgusting misuse of liberation proposals to attack regions that deviate from the norm in terms of political positions needs to end before it spins out of control and no region is safe. It doesn't matter what they believe - it's not the Security Council's job to punish people for having different opinions. Proposals like this are why many people think the SC is corrupt, which it evidently is if these sanctioned raids are being passed in spite of stiff resistance.



Well that's one of you, but lots of others who got on that sad soapbox are nowhere to be found, and Forestavia didn't even try to address the hypocrisy here.


If you read the proposal, the way it's written, it sure looks like a politicized neoliberation to me. But when I saw that the natives still had control, their own Delegate approved it, and the fact that their region is founderless, I didn't look any further into it. I was in favor. I was quick to walk that position back when told about the joke. And I walked it all the way back to the default position: to support this region's delegate.

Furthermore, the Taskforce has reached out to them. Last I checked, they have not responded to us. So here we have a lack of clarity.

I don't have a position right now. There is no hypocrisy. All we have is a lack of clarity. But if you link me to the evidence proving that it was joke, I will go out of my way to make a statement on neoliberations. I don't think there's much else for me to say though. This proposal didn't make quorum and I think I've said about all I could ever say about neoliberations a number of days ago. But if it will please the Ambassadors within these halls, then I'll make a statement. But only after I see the proper evidence.

Show me the evidence and I will get on the soapbox.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:29 am

Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Nope. Because that proposal passed. Now justice demands that all regions based on systems that glorify mass murder also be liberated. No whataboutism for you. Unless of course those liberations were all about liberating regions based on their opposition to communism and the opposition to racism, genocide and tyranny was just sloganeering.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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The Tri State Area and Maine
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Postby The Tri State Area and Maine » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:57 am

Aclion wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Nope. Because that proposal passed. Now justice demands that all regions based on systems that glorify mass murder also be liberated. No whataboutism for you. Unless of course those liberations were all about liberating regions based on their opposition to communism and the opposition to racism, genocide and tyranny was just sloganeering.


Most of the offensive liberations could be supported without pointing out that the regions were Nazi. You didn't have to care about ideology to support them.

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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:51 pm

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:
Aclion wrote:Nope. Because that proposal passed. Now justice demands that all regions based on systems that glorify mass murder also be liberated. No whataboutism for you. Unless of course those liberations were all about liberating regions based on their opposition to communism and the opposition to racism, genocide and tyranny was just sloganeering.


Most of the offensive liberations could be supported without pointing out that the regions were Nazi. You didn't have to care about ideology to support them.

Fascism is a reason to support them, otherwise the offensive liberations won't have ever gained traction since the targeted regions have active Founders. Knowing historically how fascists have turned out on this platform has made it quite certain that these liberations will pay off in the long run. And the long run is essentially what everyone's playing at, since the fascists usually flame out before long.
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The Tri State Area and Maine
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Postby The Tri State Area and Maine » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:36 pm

Jar Wattinree wrote:
The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:
Most of the offensive liberations could be supported without pointing out that the regions were Nazi. You didn't have to care about ideology to support them.

Fascism is a reason to support them, otherwise the offensive liberations won't have ever gained traction since the targeted regions have active Founders. Knowing historically how fascists have turned out on this platform has made it quite certain that these liberations will pay off in the long run. And the long run is essentially what everyone's playing at, since the fascists usually flame out before long.


Well obviously. He's just saying that because you supported the liberation of Fascist regions, you have to support the liberation of Communist regions. I'm arguing that that's not necessarily the case. I never argued that Fascism wasn't a reason (not saying whether I would or wouldn't, though.)

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Jar Wattinree
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Postby Jar Wattinree » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:39 pm

The Tri State Area and Maine wrote:
Jar Wattinree wrote:Fascism is a reason to support them, otherwise the offensive liberations won't have ever gained traction since the targeted regions have active Founders. Knowing historically how fascists have turned out on this platform has made it quite certain that these liberations will pay off in the long run. And the long run is essentially what everyone's playing at, since the fascists usually flame out before long.


Well obviously. He's just saying that because you supported the liberation of Fascist regions, you have to support the liberation of Communist regions. I'm arguing that that's not necessarily the case. I never argued that Fascism wasn't a reason (not saying whether I would or wouldn't, though.)

Aha, thanks for the clarification.
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Kokoku
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Postby Kokoku » Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:14 pm

Short: Against

Long: Aside from errors and poor writing, the NWP stands firm against any liberation of this nature, one that is ideological and petty.
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New Bremerton
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Postby New Bremerton » Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:58 pm

Inberdia wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:
Expletive-ridden you say? Damn. I guess we should definitely liberate USSD then. I'm willing to cooperate with the NSLeft to combat IRL communists, fascists and plain old dictatorships alike. As for some of what I said earlier, most of it was aimed at what I consider to be RL leftists and regressive "pseudo-liberals" with their brand of divisive identity politics. My anger was directed mainly at them, not you guys.

Serious question: If most of you are in fact anarchists, whom I and New Bremerton have nothing against, then why call yourselves "communists"? I'm genuinely baffled.

For roleplay purposes, New Bremerton will be voting FOR a condemnation of your region if a proposal comes along, simply for calling yourselves "communists". But a liberation would be inappropriate, given how democratic you actually are. OOCly, it's nothing personal. Just having some fun here. I think we've all been guilty of OOC personal attacks over RL ideological differences. This needs to stop. This applies to me as much as it does to everyone else. It's a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed.

Edit: I take back what I said about tolerance and diversity, and I apologize.

Anarcho-communism is an ideology, and those who follow it are technically anarchists and communists.


IC: After having consulted with officials and member states from the Communist Bloc, as well as allies of said region, New Bremerton is satisfied that TCB is, in fact, a democratic region. The word "Communist" refers largely to anti-statist anarcho-communists who largely run the region. We are satisfied that, unlike NK and USSD, TCB is not a totalitarian Marxist-Leninist region. Therefore, we hereby retract our condemnation of said region and apologize unreservedly for any misunderstanding caused, and we will oppose any SC condemnation that goes to vote. Furthermore, we believe that regions should be judged not only by their form of government, but also by their actions toward other regions and member states of the World Assembly. Hence, an ostensibly democratic region that invades and destroys other peaceful, democratic regions should be treated as if it were a totalitarian region and be subjected to a liberation by the Security Council. Unlike the fascist CCD, we have found no evidence to indicate that TCB has attempted to raid or destroy peaceful, democratic regions or intends to do so at some point in the future, or that they have antagonized the entirety of the World Assembly at large. They certainly do not pose any kind of threat to interregional security.

OOC: Thanks for clearing things up for me. I've changed my mind about condemning you guys. I'm still kind of new here, and my nation is still in the process of formulating a clear and consistent foreign policy.
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Shamian
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Founded: Mar 29, 2017
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Postby Shamian » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:10 pm

New Bremerton wrote:Serious question: If most of you are in fact anarchists, whom I and New Bremerton have nothing against, then why call yourselves "communists"? I'm genuinely baffled.

For roleplay purposes, New Bremerton will be voting FOR a condemnation of your region if a proposal comes along, simply for calling yourselves "communists". But a liberation would be inappropriate, given how democratic you actually are. OOCly, it's nothing personal. Just having some fun here. I think we've all been guilty of OOC personal attacks over RL ideological differences. This needs to stop. This applies to me as much as it does to everyone else. It's a game. Games are meant to be enjoyed.


Whilst much of the leadership is anarchist in ideology, the same cannot be said for the rest of the population; we have a broad spectrum of leftists residing within our region. As such, the name both reflects the broad alignment of the wider population (most folks seem to regard communism as synonymous with leftism) and also the history of the region, in that it is descended from the original "The Communist Region" - now long CTE'd.
The question of just why we anarchists keep getting elected as TCB's government - and why the citizens of our region have repeatedly voted against those with....more traditionally socialist/stalinist aligned views, is something that puzzles even us; perhaps because we actually fulfil our election pledges, and try to carry out the wishes of the citizens, rather than "the party"?

Fair enough, although I would point out that inaccurate descriptions are not unique to NS; officially India - according to its constitution - is a a "sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic", Bangladesh is officially the "People's Republic of Bangladesh" (although it's actually a parliamentary democracy), Sri Lanka - a multi party democracy - is officially styled as the "Democratic Socialist Republic of Sri Lanka"..........

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