NATION

PASSWORD

Proposal:Liberate the Communist Bloc

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Crimsonfield
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Posts: 11
Founded: Feb 26, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crimsonfield » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:46 pm

Lalop wrote:OBSERVING
That the The Communist Bloc founder has Ceased to exist
REALIZING
That this opens up the The Communist Bloc 'hereafter mentioned as the CB' to invasion.
APALLED
That the CB practices Communism an ideology that has killed millions of innocent people.
FURIOUS
That the CB has shown that it refuses the right of all political thoughts to make a home on nation states.
SURPRISED
That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.
ALARMED
Of the CB's domination of the WA which has produced laws such as security council Resolution #245 when the CB along many other regions decided to liberate KAISERREICH for only political reasons.
HOPING
That a liberation would empower the center and right wing to fight back communism on the ground and in this August body.
Herby Liberates The Communist Bloc.

That proposal is a laughable piece of garbage. I Herby stand against.

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Crimsonfield
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Founded: Feb 26, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crimsonfield » Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:48 pm

Kavagrad wrote:
New Waldensia wrote:
Absolutely. The Liberation feature is being abused and has been abused ever since the first time when it was used for political retribution and attack instead of its original purpose -- liberating regions on behalf of natives from hostile invaders. It should never have been allowed to take happen in the first place.

Of course, a member of FCN would say that ;)

Indeed indeed :unsure:

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Caracasus
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:41 pm

I could sorta understand in a way if TCB were the tankiest tankies that ever tanked and they spent their days gobbing off about how the kulaks deserved it or how the holodomor was a lie. Hell, I might even be tempted to vote for, LARPing tankies glorifying the USSR do my head in and are about as relavent and insightful when it comes to modern socialist/communist thought as maccarthy was in his era. Thing is TCB isn't.

This is a fairly blatant attempt on the part of a fascist or fascist sympathiser to muddy the waters and attempt to ensure that the reasons that we deplore fascism are clouded. There is no content to this or context save TCB being the biggest region with communist in its name.

We deplore fascism because its underpinning ideology is one of ultranationalism and racism. Whatever you say about communism, the founding principle of working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is not deserving of an offensive liberation.
Last edited by Caracasus on Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wrapper
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Wrapper » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:08 am

Crimsonfield wrote:
Lalop wrote:OBSERVING
That the The Communist Bloc founder has Ceased to exist
REALIZING
That this opens up the The Communist Bloc 'hereafter mentioned as the CB' to invasion.
APALLED
That the CB practices Communism an ideology that has killed millions of innocent people.
FURIOUS
That the CB has shown that it refuses the right of all political thoughts to make a home on nation states.
SURPRISED
That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.
ALARMED
Of the CB's domination of the WA which has produced laws such as security council Resolution #245 when the CB along many other regions decided to liberate KAISERREICH for only political reasons.
HOPING
That a liberation would empower the center and right wing to fight back communism on the ground and in this August body.
Herby Liberates The Communist Bloc.

That proposal is a laughable piece of garbage. I Herby stand against.

Stand against all you want, but you’re not Herby. (Herby’s on hiatus from the forums, otherwise she’d be here to say something like “Ehhhhhhhhh no I don’t.”)

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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:25 am

Wrapper wrote:
Crimsonfield wrote:That proposal is a laughable piece of garbage. I Herby stand against.

Stand against all you want, but you’re not Herby. (Herby’s on hiatus from the forums, otherwise she’d be here to say something like “Ehhhhhhhhh no I don’t.”)

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Kaboomlandia
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Postby Kaboomlandia » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:00 am

This trend of offensive liberations jumped the shark about eight months ago. Can we not?
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Ubertas
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Ubertas » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:49 pm

Caracasus wrote:I could sorta understand in a way if TCB were the tankiest tankies that ever tanked and they spent their days gobbing off about how the kulaks deserved it or how the holodomor was a lie. Hell, I might even be tempted to vote for, LARPing tankies glorifying the USSR do my head in and are about as relavent and insightful when it comes to modern socialist/communist thought as maccarthy was in his era. Thing is TCB isn't.

This is a fairly blatant attempt on the part of a fascist or fascist sympathiser to muddy the waters and attempt to ensure that the reasons that we deplore fascism are clouded. There is no content to this or context save TCB being the biggest region with communist in its name.

We deplore fascism because its underpinning ideology is one of ultranationalism and racism. Whatever you say about communism, the founding principle of working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is not deserving of an offensive liberation.


Here here! I'd like to say that this is probably become one of the biggest memes in TCB to date. Not only is the driving idea behind this proposal (blatant invasion) highly improbable given our numbers and the strength of our allies, but its an attempt to create a false equivalency between the far left and the far right.

TCB or PRTCB (not The CB, please get our acronym right), is a flourishing democracy with probably one of the most democratic systems I've ever come across on NS. We raid fascists, big whoop. They're dedicated to the creation of a sadistic and racist ethnostate, we are persons striving toward the realization of a better solution for all humanity. "Oh but they support communism, which killed a trillion, trillion, zillion innocents."

Might I remind you all that history is written by the winners and is very rarely unbiased or truthful. I have no doubt that there may have been some problems with the implementation of some of our ideas, but we never inspired or devised the most systematic and efficient system of mass murder in history. Fascism is an ideology the spreads sentiment that would inevitably make this game more hostile. I'd love to see an NS where I don't have to see support for an ideology that inspired the deaths of millions of gay or non-european persons like myself. I also remind everyone that allowing intolerance to spread leads to the destruction of tolerance in the first place. We weed out the disease before it can infect and kill, we don't seek to give it a place to grow in the name of the very rights they seek to see destroyed.

Forestavia wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Indeed? Where's Forestavia when they're needed to apply their standards to another group?

That's right, crickets. Funny that. I think we had precisely this discussion Caracasus:) Where are all those who had sympathy for the poor Fascists but claimed they didn't. When the shoe's on the other foot, I don't see them rushing to defend us on the same grounds.


Seriously though, this is a bad proposal, the last incarnation of it was declared illegal, it's formatting is crap, its motivated by pro-Fascist sentiments and your own regional leader (ideologically a conservative and no friend of Communism) has told you it's a stupid proposal and to cut it out (yes, we can read your RMB). Was this the 'not a joke' proposal you were planning to submit? Because it's still a joke, just not very funny.


The Ambassador from Forestavia is far too triggered to appear in person. He needs his rest (OOC: busy irl). However, he is sending a brief statement on this particular liberation via the mail:

IN FAVOR - if and when legal
Honorable Cedoria,
Please understand, my sympathies do not lie with the fascists nor with the communists nor with any ideology, but with the people and the principle of peace and regional sovereignty. In this case The Communist Bloc is a region without a founder which puts it at risk of invasion. It is an old region - nearly five years old. And their very own Delegate approved this proposal. This liberation is not a fake one but has the potential to protect them in the uncertain future. This liberation has the potential to give the residents peace on their own soil. If their people are for it then I'm for it.


We approved it as a joke btw. We really do actually oppose this wholeheartedly for the blatant lie it is.
Nathaniel Penrose
Minister of Foreign Affairs of The Communist Bloc
Member of the Administration Council of The Communist Bloc
General Secretary The Communist Bloc

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Isvataan
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Founded: Mar 09, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Isvataan » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:02 pm

Sjws on NS be like "Erm ma gosh, we can't ever have a different point of view that offends us. We will claim to fight "fascists" (though in reality they are disgracing people who fought real ones) but also claim its rping (even though how serious these people are, geez) for fun experience. But God forbide, if anyone, ANYONE, condemn or liberate Communists/Socialists, we will argue them and deaf them to ensure that issue is not passed even though we know that this belief has killed more innocent lives then the other belief."

Basic Nutshell of what happening my fellow sane peeps (Edit: Never said others are insane, just people who ignore this are sane and kudos to them)
Last edited by Isvataan on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:18 pm

Isvataan wrote:Basic Nutshell of what happening my fellow sane peeps

You can argue against the proposal without the flamebaiting of saying anyone who disagrees with you is insane. Stop that and review the site rules.

New Waldensia wrote:The Liberation feature is being abused and has been abused ever since the first time when it was used for political retribution and attack instead of its original purpose -- liberating regions on behalf of natives from hostile invaders.

And for the umpteenth time...
A liberation's sole purpose is "preventing a delegate from passwording a region." Not "preventing raider delegates only from passwording a region"- that is a player precedent, nothing more. "Misuse" of liberations to open regions up to attack is not an abuse, it's a legit function of the system.
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Consular
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Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Consular » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:24 pm

Isvataan wrote:(though in reality they are disgracing people who fought real ones)

No they aren't. How many times do I need to say this is a game in one thread?

The majority of tend to think fascists shouldn't be welcome in our game, yes. That's not disgracing real anti fascist action and honestly the real disgrace is people who use that argument.

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Prydania
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Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:54 pm

Isvataan wrote:Sjws on NS be like "Erm ma gosh, we can't ever have a different point of view that offends us. We will claim to fight "fascists" (though in reality they are disgracing people who fought real ones) but also claim its rping (even though how serious these people are, geez) for fun experience. But God forbide, if anyone, ANYONE, condemn or liberate Communists/Socialists, we will argue them and deaf them to ensure that issue is not passed even though we know that this belief has killed more innocent lives then the other belief."

Basic Nutshell of what happening my fellow sane peeps

Two things...

1) I argued extensively for using offensive Liberations against fascists, and and for offensive Liberations against communists for many of the same reasons. So take your strawman and shove it.

2) If you have made a single post in the SC that didn't use "SJWs" as a boogeyman I haven't seen it.

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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:22 am

Caracasus wrote:I could sorta understand in a way if TCB were the tankiest tankies that ever tanked and they spent their days gobbing off about how the kulaks deserved it or how the holodomor was a lie. Hell, I might even be tempted to vote for, LARPing tankies glorifying the USSR do my head in and are about as relavent and insightful when it comes to modern socialist/communist thought as maccarthy was in his era. Thing is TCB isn't.

This is basically my position. If TCB were a region which basically went off saying 'kulaks deserved it', 'kill the bourgeoisie', 'KGB did nothing wrong', 'Stalin did nothing wrong', 'no famine, no famine, you're the famine', etc. I would probably support the idea of liberating them (this proposal is not the vehicle with which to do it, even if they were, since it's built like a first-time KSP-player's failship).

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Prydania
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:27 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:(this proposal is not the vehicle with which to do it, even if they were, since it's built like a first-time KSP-player's failship).

fucking lost it XD

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New Ciceria
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Founded: May 03, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New Ciceria » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:20 am

I'd vote for a condemnation but I'm not a bloody raider.

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Caracasus
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Founded: Apr 23, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:47 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Caracasus wrote:I could sorta understand in a way if TCB were the tankiest tankies that ever tanked and they spent their days gobbing off about how the kulaks deserved it or how the holodomor was a lie. Hell, I might even be tempted to vote for, LARPing tankies glorifying the USSR do my head in and are about as relavent and insightful when it comes to modern socialist/communist thought as maccarthy was in his era. Thing is TCB isn't.

This is basically my position. If TCB were a region which basically went off saying 'kulaks deserved it', 'kill the bourgeoisie', 'KGB did nothing wrong', 'Stalin did nothing wrong', 'no famine, no famine, you're the famine', etc. I would probably support the idea of liberating them (this proposal is not the vehicle with which to do it, even if they were, since it's built like a first-time KSP-player's failship).


Yep. Not played KSP myself much but I have a friend who does. I have seen enough badly constructed launch vehicles doing a catherine wheel impression before exploding to get the analogy.
Last edited by Caracasus on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:15 am

Caracasus wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:This is basically my position. If TCB were a region which basically went off saying 'kulaks deserved it', 'kill the bourgeoisie', 'KGB did nothing wrong', 'Stalin did nothing wrong', 'no famine, no famine, you're the famine', etc. I would probably support the idea of liberating them (this proposal is not the vehicle with which to do it, even if they were, since it's built like a first-time KSP-player's failship).


Yep. Not played KSP myself much but I have a friend who does. I have seen enough badly constructed launch vehicles doing a catherine wheel impression before exploding to get the analogy.

Are we working under the assumption that this rocket took off, rather than just disassembling itself on the launch pad?
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Caracasus
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:17 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Yep. Not played KSP myself much but I have a friend who does. I have seen enough badly constructed launch vehicles doing a catherine wheel impression before exploding to get the analogy.

Are we working under the assumption that this rocket took off, rather than just disassembling itself on the launch pad?


If we're stretching the analogy, I'd consider getting at orbit height reaching quorum - so whizzing around the launchpad area all jets firing in different directions before exploding so hard the computer lags best describes this...
As an editor I seam to spend an awful lot of thyme going threw issues and checking that they're no oblivious errars. Its a tough job but someone's got too do it!



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Kavagrad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:19 am

Caracasus wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Are we working under the assumption that this rocket took off, rather than just disassembling itself on the launch pad?


If we're stretching the analogy, I'd consider getting at orbit height reaching quorum - so whizzing around the launchpad area all jets firing in different directions before exploding so hard the computer lags best describes this...

That sounds about right, actually.
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Andoros
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:37 am

Caracasus wrote:I could sorta understand in a way if TCB were the tankiest tankies that ever tanked and they spent their days gobbing off about how the kulaks deserved it or how the holodomor was a lie. Hell, I might even be tempted to vote for, LARPing tankies glorifying the USSR do my head in and are about as relavent and insightful when it comes to modern socialist/communist thought as maccarthy was in his era. Thing is TCB isn't.

This is a fairly blatant attempt on the part of a fascist or fascist sympathiser to muddy the waters and attempt to ensure that the reasons that we deplore fascism are clouded. There is no content to this or context save TCB being the biggest region with communist in its name.

We deplore fascism because its underpinning ideology is one of ultranationalism and racism. Whatever you say about communism, the founding principle of working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is not deserving of an offensive liberation.



Working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is working towards a dystopian, totalitarian, repressive hell. While ultranationalism and racism are based on a misguided, twisted love-obsession towards one's own people, communism is, in the end, just being spiteful because somebody else is doing better than you. Communist regions deserve liberations just as much, if not even more so.

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Caracasus
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Caracasus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:39 am

Andoros wrote:
Caracasus wrote:I could sorta understand in a way if TCB were the tankiest tankies that ever tanked and they spent their days gobbing off about how the kulaks deserved it or how the holodomor was a lie. Hell, I might even be tempted to vote for, LARPing tankies glorifying the USSR do my head in and are about as relavent and insightful when it comes to modern socialist/communist thought as maccarthy was in his era. Thing is TCB isn't.

This is a fairly blatant attempt on the part of a fascist or fascist sympathiser to muddy the waters and attempt to ensure that the reasons that we deplore fascism are clouded. There is no content to this or context save TCB being the biggest region with communist in its name.

We deplore fascism because its underpinning ideology is one of ultranationalism and racism. Whatever you say about communism, the founding principle of working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is not deserving of an offensive liberation.



Working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is working towards a dystopian, totalitarian, repressive hell. While ultranationalism and racism are based on a misguided, twisted love-obsession towards one's own people, communism is, in the end, just being spiteful because somebody else is doing better than you. Communist regions deserve liberations just as much, if not even more so.


Really? That's your argument...

Well shit, and here I was reading through the last century or so of really, really convoluted left wing thought and the answer was there all along. It's all about being spiteful. Glad we cleared that up. What's next? It won't work because of human nature?
Last edited by Caracasus on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:47 am

Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?


Right. As one of the non-Fascists who expressed outrage and disgust at the proposal to """liberate""" CCD, I stand by my principles here as well. Sorry if that disrupts the narrative you were trying to spin.

This disgusting misuse of liberation proposals to attack regions that deviate from the norm in terms of political positions needs to end before it spins out of control and no region is safe. It doesn't matter what they believe - it's not the Security Council's job to punish people for having different opinions. Proposals like this are why many people think the SC is corrupt, which it evidently is if these sanctioned raids are being passed in spite of stiff resistance.
Last edited by Trollzyn the Infinite on Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New Bremerton
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Bremerton » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:57 am

TL;DR post deleted.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Andoros
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Founded: Apr 03, 2018
Father Knows Best State

Postby Andoros » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:59 am

Caracasus wrote:
Andoros wrote:

Working towards a classless, moneyless and stateless society is working towards a dystopian, totalitarian, repressive hell. While ultranationalism and racism are based on a misguided, twisted love-obsession towards one's own people, communism is, in the end, just being spiteful because somebody else is doing better than you. Communist regions deserve liberations just as much, if not even more so.


Really? That's your argument...

Well shit, and here I was reading through the last century or so of really, really convoluted left wing thought and the answer was there all along. It's all about being spiteful. Glad we cleared that up. What's next? It won't work because of human nature?


Fine, you disagree. But prove me, a political illiterate wrong then. The way I see it, ultranationalism is just taking the "love" way too far, while communism is about getting revenge and redistributing a society's wealth supposedly equally. But that never works out, some always accumulate more wealth and power and become the new upper class. You have an entire revolution, bloodshed and fighting, but nothing changes in the end and someday the cycle will start again. So why not fight communism? It always brings with itself misery, suffering and pain, just like fanatical purism and nationalism.

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Melon feud
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Melon feud » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:07 pm

The great & glorious Rouge Nation of Melon feud staunchly stands by it's belief of the " LIVE & LET LIVE" policy,,, er,,that is,by the way to state it bluntly, AS LONG AS YOU LIVE FAR AWAY & OUT OF SIGHT while maintaining a low key unobtrusive signature, WE DON'T CARE.
This "proposal" is the blantant exhibition of some nosey big nosed shit stirring nation obviously suffering a dark & dour disposition in their life's endeavors,,,* butts out cigarette on top of the podium*,,,therefore,VOTES AGAINST this proposed nefarious attempt of regime change by their projected whimsical fancy.

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Calamari
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Founded: May 17, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Calamari » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:41 pm

Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Strawman.
I have the mantra of "Live and Let Live." So I would be against this.
Cheers

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