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Proposal:Liberate the Communist Bloc

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Lalop
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Proposal:Liberate the Communist Bloc

Postby Lalop » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:26 am

OBSERVING
That the The Communist Bloc founder has Ceased to exist
REALIZING
That this opens up the The Communist Bloc 'hereafter mentioned as the CB' to invasion.
APALLED
That the CB practices Communism an ideology that has killed millions of innocent people.
FURIOUS
That the CB has shown that it refuses the right of all political thoughts to make a home on nation states.
SURPRISED
That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.
ALARMED
Of the CB's domination of the WA which has produced laws such as security council Resolution #245 when the CB along many other regions decided to liberate KAISERREICH for only political reasons.
HOPING
That a liberation would empower the center and right wing to fight back communism on the ground and in this August body.
Herby Liberates The Communist Bloc.

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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:37 am

Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?
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New Excalibus
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Postby New Excalibus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:41 am

*breathe in*
b o i
Would people just please let it go? If they're roleplaying as an ideology, and not breaking any NS rules, let it go for god's sake.
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ShrewLlamaLand
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Postby ShrewLlamaLand » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:12 am

Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

I have a very slight suspicion I may know some of that nations you're referring to with that comment.

Personally I'd be against this proposal if it was to reach quorum.
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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:17 am

well if you insist on trying, go ahead. i doubt that anyone would vote for this, ESPECIALLY with those reasons you have presented to us.if you want it to win? i'd suggest a major rewording. like, on the level of "scrap the thing and start anew" rewording.
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Lalop
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Postby Lalop » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:23 am

The reason I'm trying to liberate them is because a Liberation actually does something a Condemnation does nothing in game.

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Sefy the Great
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Postby Sefy the Great » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:27 am

Lalop wrote:The reason I'm trying to liberate them is because a Liberation actually does something a Condemnation does nothing in game.

that only answers motive there. and you aren't going to win with these points, especially seeing that you are supporting Fascists in the final points there. like i suggested beforehand, scrap the thing and start anew. i'd start with removing the terminology of Fascism from the proposal entirely.
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Arcturus Novus
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Arcturus Novus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:29 am

Even if you ignore the fact that I'm serving as vice-delegate in TCB, and that I'd hate to see my region get invaded under a WA banner, this is just... not a good proposal.

Let's berak this down, shall we?

Lalop wrote:The Communist Bloc founder has Ceased to exist

The Communist Bloc 'hereafter mentioned as the CB'

The grammar issues are just a nitpick for me, really. If you want to take down the largest left-wing region in NS, at least do so without spelling mistakes. Also, we're TCB. The "The" is capitalized, too.
the CB practices Communism an ideology that has killed millions of innocent people.

[citation needed]
the CB has shown that it refuses the right of all political thoughts to make a home on nation states.

"Won't someone please think of the poor, poor fascists?"

Ideologies based in violently exclusionary rhetoric have no place anywhere, not even here.
SURPRISED
That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet

Okay, first off, why is it surprising that leftist regions support their own?
and the USSD

lmao no we don't. The USSD and TCB have a... contentious history, to say the least. At present, we aren't allies in any meaningful sense of the word.
that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.

Fascist* also, it isn't that we just politically disagree with fascism; it's self-defense. Fascism is anathema to the freedom and equality of all people as a collective group. As I said before, it's an ideology based in violent exclusionary rhetoric. It isn't just some benign philosophy. It's a weapon that must be decommissioned.

Also, I want you to point out one democratic region that TCB has invaded purely because we dislike democracy. If you find one, I will be thoroughly surprised.

CB's domination of the WA which has produced laws such as security council Resolution #245 when the CB along many other regions decided to liberate KAISERREICH for only political reasons.

You already know what my response is to this issue.

Also, domination? Really? Sure, Kethania has a couple hundred delegate votes, but we hardly influence every single WA vote. We have other things to worry about, like regional government elections.
a liberation would empower the center and right wing to fight back communism on the ground and in this August body.

So you're upset with TCB for attacking fascists on "ideological grounds", but want to liberate TCB... on ideological grounds? Incredible, truly.


Anyways, this proposal is bad, and while you aren't obligated to feel bad, I'm sure it couldn't hurt.
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:31 am

OBSERVING
That the The Communist Bloc founder has Ceased to exist


Well that at least is true....

REALIZING
That this opens up the The Communist Bloc 'hereafter mentioned as the CB' to invasion.


Again, technically accurate.

APALLED
That the CB practices Communism an ideology that has killed millions of innocent people.


Spelling error aside, find me a dominant political ideology that hasn't. The issue with fascism has never solely been its death count, and death count olympics is a pointless way of really understanding an ideology. If we're going by death count I guess we need to liberate any region that follows (however loosely) the politics of liberalism and capitalism. Fascism is targeted because its underlying ideology is abhorrent to anyone.

FURIOUS
That the CB has shown that it refuses the right of all political thoughts to make a home on nation states.


Where are you getting that one from? I guess their constitution would by dint of the fact it calls for people not to discriminate or defame a group of people get rid of fascists - but hell, you could say that about most of the regions in NS. Fascist politics is incompatible with most regions by dint of it being based on extreme nationalism and racism.

SURPRISED
That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.


So they have some affiliation with raider groups? Okay. This is not presenting a good case at all for a liberation.

ALARMED
Of the CB's domination of the WA which has produced laws such as security council Resolution #245 when the CB along many other regions decided to liberate KAISERREICH for only political reasons.


Now this is a flat out lie. I remember from when I was a member that TCB has at best a tangential interest in the WA. They have (esp. for their size) very little impact or influence on the WA. They certainly don't dominate it in any way whatsoever.

HOPING
That a liberation would empower the center and right wing to fight back communism on the ground and in this August body.
Herby Liberates The Communist Bloc.


Lol
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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:38 am

Well at least the proposal no longer mentions my region, which was listed among the militant raider groups even though we haven't even HAD a military for nearly two years. What army are we supposed to have conquered with?

That said, the rest of this proposal is still shite and irreedeemable. There is nothing TCB has done that is Liberation requiring.

Also, only an idiot would claim TCB and USSD are allies.
Last edited by Cedoria on Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:43 am

Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Indeed? Where's Forestavia when they're needed to apply their standards to another group?

That's right, crickets. Funny that. I think we had precisely this discussion Caracasus:) Where are all those who had sympathy for the poor Fascists but claimed they didn't. When the shoe's on the other foot, I don't see them rushing to defend us on the same grounds.


Seriously though, this is a bad proposal, the last incarnation of it was declared illegal, it's formatting is crap, its motivated by pro-Fascist sentiments and your own regional leader (ideologically a conservative and no friend of Communism) has told you it's a stupid proposal and to cut it out (yes, we can read your RMB). Was this the 'not a joke' proposal you were planning to submit? Because it's still a joke, just not very funny.
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Kavagrad
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Postby Kavagrad » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:45 am

Lalop wrote:That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.


Well damn, you took my suggestions and somehow made this clause even less factually correct. Firstly, the organisation is named "NSLeft". Second, USSD is definitely not a member of NSLeft, so how you can relate their actions to TCB through NSLeft is beyond me.

Thirdly, and this is key, TCB is not a member of NSLeft.

Your repeated attempts at passing this ridiculous proposal are no longer as funny as they were. Don't get me wrong, it's still a complete joke, but it gets sadder with every passing attempt. I am THUNDERSTRUCK.
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:47 am

Cedoria wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Indeed? Where's Forestavia when they're needed to apply their standards to another group?

That's right, crickets. Funny that. I think we had precisely this discussion Caracasus:) Where are all those who had sympathy for the poor Fascists but claimed they didn't. When the shoe's on the other foot, I don't see them rushing to defend us on the same grounds.




They have for some reason decided that the liberation of TCB is OK... Check out their RMB
https://www.nationstates.net/region=sc_ ... _taskforce
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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:49 am

Caracasus wrote:
Cedoria wrote:Indeed? Where's Forestavia when they're needed to apply their standards to another group?

That's right, crickets. Funny that. I think we had precisely this discussion Caracasus:) Where are all those who had sympathy for the poor Fascists but claimed they didn't. When the shoe's on the other foot, I don't see them rushing to defend us on the same grounds.




They have for some reason decided that the liberation of TCB is OK... Check out their RMB
https://www.nationstates.net/region=sc_ ... _taskforce



Well would you look at that, they ARE OK with supporting ideologically based liberations.

News that should surprise... Literally nobody.
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Cedoria
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Postby Cedoria » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:51 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Lalop wrote:That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.


Well damn, you took my suggestions and somehow made this clause even less factually correct. Firstly, the organisation is named "NSLeft". Second, USSD is definitely not a member of NSLeft, so how you can relate their actions to TCB through NSLeft is beyond me.

Thirdly, and this is key, TCB is not a member of NSLeft.

Your repeated attempts at passing this ridiculous proposal are no longer as funny as they were. Don't get me wrong, it's still a complete joke, but it gets sadder with every passing attempt. I am THUNDERSTRUCK.


I concur with ma Delegate here. TCB has no ties with NSLeft beyond some embassies with individual regions, most of which were established fairly recently. Even our ties only recently were re-established after years out in the cold. They are also not friends to USSD, who are not friends with NSLeft.

Whoever wrote this proposal didn't do their homework. Or... any work at all, it would seem to me.
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Kuriko
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Postby Kuriko » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:24 am

I'm just gonna say "meh", and no support. I don't have time to explain why, I'm just against because its horribly written and because TCB hasn't truly done anything to warrant one.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Oct 01, 2018 6:59 am

Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Speaking of hypocrisy. I'm sure you'd support a better written proposal against a communist region, like the ones you supported against other authoritarian regions, right?
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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:02 am

Cedoria wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:
Well damn, you took my suggestions and somehow made this clause even less factually correct. Firstly, the organisation is named "NSLeft". Second, USSD is definitely not a member of NSLeft, so how you can relate their actions to TCB through NSLeft is beyond me.

Thirdly, and this is key, TCB is not a member of NSLeft.

Your repeated attempts at passing this ridiculous proposal are no longer as funny as they were. Don't get me wrong, it's still a complete joke, but it gets sadder with every passing attempt. I am THUNDERSTRUCK.


I concur with ma Delegate here. TCB has no ties with NSLeft beyond some embassies with individual regions, most of which were established fairly recently. Even our ties only recently were re-established after years out in the cold. They are also not friends to USSD, who are not friends with NSLeft.

Whoever wrote this proposal didn't do their homework. Or... any work at all, it would seem to me.

In fairness, we are making attempts to rekindle our connections with many region sin NSLeft, but many of these plans are far from finalized.
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:06 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Caracasus wrote:Back when actual fascist regions were being targeted with offensive liberations we had dozens of very, very dedicated people insisting that they were not fascists bur rather stood strongly against use of liberations in thid way.

I am sure they will be along very shortly to make their points and fight against this proposal as venemantly as they did the others.

Right?

Speaking of hypocrisy. I'm sure you'd support a better written proposal against a communist region, like the ones you supported against other authoritarian regions, right?


Er, no? My issue with fascism is in part based on its authoritarian nature, but frankly that's just the crusty sprinklings on the massive turd cake that is fascism as an ideology.
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Consular
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Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:21 am

Can I be blunt? I'm going to be blunt. This draft is just trash, which is why it won't pass. You should have a look at the resolutions that have passed to see what kind of quality is expected.

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:25 am

Caracasus wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Speaking of hypocrisy. I'm sure you'd support a better written proposal against a communist region, like the ones you supported against other authoritarian regions, right?


Er, no? My issue with fascism is in part based on its authoritarian nature, but frankly that's just the crusty sprinklings on the massive turd cake that is fascism as an ideology.

Nice response. Being hypocritical while previously accusing others of being hypocritical. I am principled, and stand against this resolution. The commie bloc does deserve to be condemned though.
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Caracasus
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Postby Caracasus » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:26 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
Er, no? My issue with fascism is in part based on its authoritarian nature, but frankly that's just the crusty sprinklings on the massive turd cake that is fascism as an ideology.

Nice response. Being hypocritical while previously accusing others of being hypocritical. I am principled, and stand against this resolution. The commie bloc does deserve to be condemned though.


If I'm being hypocritical I am sure you've got actual evidence to back that up, rather than drawing on the usual "But muh gommunism!" false equivalence whenever fascism comes up.
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:28 am

Caracasus wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Nice response. Being hypocritical while previously accusing others of being hypocritical. I am principled, and stand against this resolution. The commie bloc does deserve to be condemned though.


If I'm being hypocritical I am sure you've got actual evidence to back that up, rather than drawing on the usual "But muh gommunism!" false equivalence whenever fascism comes up.

You expect too much from his type.

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Armaros
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Postby Armaros » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:28 am

Lalop wrote:SURPRISED
That the CB suports groups through the group 'NS left' such as Antifa,the Red Fleet and the USSD that invade small growing and vibrant Facist or Democratic regions for the sole reason of political disagreement.

You say it like destroying fascist regions is a bad thing.

Against. TCB hasn't done something to warrant a lib. But I like this proposal, simply because I'm curious if the people who have been argueing fiercely against the use of a lib against fascists yet claim not to be fascist will be argueing just as fiercely against this proposal. And aside from that, there are no passwords in place, and the delegate has more endos then any invading force will ever manage to gather.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:32 am

Consular wrote:
Caracasus wrote:
If I'm being hypocritical I am sure you've got actual evidence to back that up, rather than drawing on the usual "But muh gommunism!" false equivalence whenever fascism comes up.

You expect too much from his type.

No I expect too much from commies like you.
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